I did everything they said.  I spent ages buying muzzles to get the right size.  (Lubo is a standard schnauzer but big for his breed and I've ended up with a size 8.  Maybe I should go one bigger and get a size 9?)

I didn't just jam it on his face, I spent months making him excited at the thought of it, putting treats in it, letting him get them out, only letting him wear it for a minute at a time.  He used to jump around with joy when I got it out of the cupboard!!

Now we are actually using it on his walks, he hates it.  He makes huffy puffy noises when he's got it on, he backs away if he sees me with it, he doesn't care what treats in it now, i could put chicken in and he wouldn't get it.  He hates it - I know its bad, as he would actually rather not go for a walk if he has to wear it.  He's just turned his back on me when I said walkies and waggled the muzzle and is sulking on his cushion.

what am i doing wrong and what should i do now?

x

Am I missing something? Why is he muzzled? Is he aggressive? If not, then why use a muzzle?

Oh sorry, yes, he is fear aggressive - I don't need a muzzle with my other dog, just him.  He lunges at people and tried to bite them and other dogs.

This wasn't a decision I came to lightly but I have to be responsible and if he wants a walk i need to muzzle him.

Which muzzle type are you using Jo?

i'm using a basket muzzle.  I originally bought him a size 6, so small couldn't even get it on him, 7 his nose was pressed against the edge, 8 I thought was better but I think it annoys his beard!  Or maybe he just doesn't like it. 

The muzzle gives me peace of mind as well because I know he can't hurt other dogs or people but he is so miserable that it doesn't seem worth it.

> I didn't just jam it on his face, I spent months making him excited at the thought of it, putting treats in it, letting him get them out, only letting him wear it for a minute at a time.  He used to jump around with joy when I got it out of the cupboard!!
>
> Now we are actually using it on his walks, he hates it.

Did you try any of the positive association with the muzzle while out on walks, or was it all done in the home/garden?

I use a chest harness with a lead on, a collar with a lead on and a halti (head collar) with a lead on, all at the same time, it means I can keep control of my excitable 'teenage' dog, that, if given the chance would occasionally lunge at people in an OTT greeting (esp. young women that say 'hello' to him!!!!). This means I have control over his body, neck & head all at the same time and can use the halti for 'steering' his head (it's helped me loads with teaching a calm sit for greeting strangers, but we have some work to do still). A similar set up may give you enough control for you to work on positive association with the muzzle while on walks.

Have you seen a good behaviourist re. the fear agression? If not, then it's definately something you should look into. I would be very reluctant to muzzle a dog if it was fearfull, he allready feels so threatened he needs to lunge, muzzling him may make him even more fearfull and subsequently potentially even more agressive. It's a catch-22 situation as you obviously want to ensure he doesn't harm anybody....

Hi Jo,

One point that I'd like to clarify is the transition from your second paragraph to your third paragraph.
  Your second paragraph is pretty much spot on in terms of introducing the muzzle, but then (the way it reads) we seem to then go straight into the deep end on a walk (which I'm presuming was your normal walk? was it? or did you do little periods of time out and about then stop?....therefore building up to the 'main event' if you will, combined with (as Mastiff has mentioned) lots of positive re-enforcement/reward?
   This transition period might be the clincher? or the weak link that broke the chain.

I had experience of using a Muzzle when our lad came to us (Re-home teenage dog, had been locked in a shed from puppy hood with no socialisation) Here's my story it might give you some pointers/ideas?

Although I considered myself competent in training all my previous dogs had been with me since puppyhood, so I had never owned a dog that had behavioral problems with socialisation/ other dog/ people/ interaction.
  Thankfully (but not after a lot of blood sweat and tears!) I acknowledged that working with a behaviorist would be absolutely crucial to the success of turning this dog around.... because:

I think what a lot of people miss is that sometimes it is not so much a case of bringing in someone because you don't know what your doing but that it is vital to have that extra set of eyes (especially objective eyes!) when your dog plays up... to observe key and significant trigger points/body language/handling mistakes etc etc that when you (the handler) are in the 'thick of it' you miss or don't get to see.

So emphatically I would echo Mastiff in the benefit of using an accredited Behaviorist (apbc.org) My apbc behaviorist (who three years down the line still keeps in touch! now thats value for the pound!!) gave us training sessions and came on walks with us, gave phone advice at any time and an EEC paper mountian of articles and hand-outs !)

Regards the Muzzle, can you imagine..... a Muzzle on a Siberian Husky!!!!??? The 'friend to all' breed!!!!?? so Im hear to tell to you that sometimes it is the sensible and accepted option when done correctly. Pay no mind to those that comment with no experience but take on board valid points that are constructive and pertinent be they positive or negative.(;) )
    We used the Muzzle for 4 weeks and then never again with never any need. I was thankful my behaviourist was like minded and we agreed that in the early days where the dog was an unknown quantity and training had not yet started to calm him and turn him around we had to be responsible and sensible. We both were of the opinion that 'devices' such as the muzzle/ head collar etc etc were to be used only to help in management until training had built up to the level where these were not necs, and this was our aim they were to temporary and certainly never a way of life for the dog... I did not want a bondage victim on a lead!!!!!!! (;)) and neither did she want to leave me with one!

The whole point of what we were doing was to bring the dog to a state where he was well rounded able to make the right decisions himself, able to react sensibly and calmly and most certainly not 'managed' permenently by a load of bondage gear!

With weekly training sessions it was 4 weeks and we were no longer using the muzzle, all walks and training were on collar and lead nothing else (on my own in the intial 4 months I used a head collar for road walks only)
All in I would say that after 6 months I had a dog that could walk past other dogs calmly, make eye contact and walk on. We did have to keep working on it "use it or lose it!" But in the 4 years now since I have had nothing but a calm well mannered dog who approaches, sniffs and play bows nicely with other dogs while he is on lead even if they are off lead.
   Make no mistake He was a lurching howling snarling slam dunking bully before hand.

In terms of why the training we used was so effective I have often wondered, and have come to the conclusion we succeeded because:
-"use it or lose it" we still train even though the dogs are well behaved.
-We progressed from 'management' to 'cure the root problem' (so rather than using a head collar to keep a dogs attention train the dog to make this decision his/her self)
- We followed the Turid Rugaas methodology of not inhibiting a dogs natural body language and ability to appease a situation (of which they are actually much better than us!) so for example and I believe this is key... when a dog especially breeds with strength lurches and pulls owners will often rather encourage the dog to 'sit' so they have control, but this is just a 'management' technique rather than a 'solve the problem' so it doesnt happen in the future technique!! Better to set your dog up to succeed! (<- My behaviorists fave saying! now mine!)

Regards the Muzzle we used: I found the wire muzzles (used on Greyhounds etc) much better, but the fit may not be right for you? but the mest muzzle we used was actually the leather ones from the states (as recommended by our behaviorist for comfort for the dog and ability to pant/treat etc) I really didnt like the look of the leather ones but it was MUCH better than the basket/ baskerville.

Sorrry.... I've waffled on! But I do feel passionately about this as I know with the right training anyone can have a well behaved dog it doesnt happen over night but it doesn't take years and I tell you what its such a joy to have lovely calm enjoyable walks at last :D

Hiya,

It sounds like you've done a fantastic job and are being a responsible owner by inroducing a muzzle :-)  I think as others have said you may have just done a jump a bit too quickly with the getting him used to it at home and then going out on walks with it?  Did you gradually increase the time he had it on - take him in the garden with it on, pop the lead on at home and walk with it on it on the home and garden.  When you eventually took him out with it on did you start with very short walks and gradually build up?

What I would do now is maybe reintroduce a new muzzle, maybe the leather ones as they look quite different and start at the beginning again.  Just get it out when he's having his dinner and pop the muzzle near his bowl, then start with picking it up and giving a high value treat until he starts to anticipate the muzzle with food, then start with the popping the food in the muzzle and letting him take it and gradually build from there.  If you always used the same high value treat with the muzzle before like chicken it may be worth using something different like hot dog sausage/garlic sausage as he may also have built an association between muzzle + chicken = bad experience.

Also I wouldn't use the word walkies as at the moment it sounds like he's feeling pretty negative about that too - in that it now means having the muzzle on which for him for what ever reason has become a negative experience.

It is possible there was another reason behind it, it may help if you could be more specific about when it started to go wrong, was it as soon as you started to walk him outdoors in it?  Or was it after he had lunged and barked at another person or dog or anything you can think of?

If you aren't already getting help then it may be really helpful and reassuring for you to do so :-)

Karen

>The whole point of what we were doing was to bring the dog to a state where he was well rounded able to make the right decisions himself, able to react sensibly and calmly and most certainly not 'managed' permenently by a load of bondage gear!

The whole point of me using the 'bondage gear' (hatli, collar & harness) is for ongoing trainig through the 'teens' and into adulthood, once training is at a reliably good level, there will be no need for the halti (collar will be used for close walking, harness for the long-line).
I've found that having confidance works wonders with training, it makes it so much easier to stay calm in situations and therefore concentrate on training the dog in that situation (distraction/lure/reward/ )rather than managing it (hold on for dear life while sceaming the dogs name ), the 'bondage' set up gives me so much confidance as I know if I mis-time any distraction, or a person jumps infront of us out of a hedge (for eg.) then I can control the dog with the leads, no need to worry about the panick in my voice rendering any commands I give useless, I can simply reward any behaviour I want and I have 100% control of the dog with the leads.

All the 'bondage gear' is a little like wearing a safety belt in a car -  it's not worn because one thinks they are rubbish drivers or that one expects to be using the belt on that trip, it's worn because one never knows when it may be needed and there are plenty of prats on the road. (ie. when a man decided to test out how gentle Buster was by placing a minature dachund PUPPY under Busters front legs , if he had exhibited normal behaviour - a big play bow, he could have crushed the pup :( - it's amazing how people want to 'test' out Busters reactions :( ).

Buster got spooked by traffic, pulling me a long way (on a collar & lead) luckily he didn't pull me into the road. Once using the collar, harness & halti, I had enough control to be confidant to work on getting him used to traffic, without the fear of us being run over (NOT useing flooding & force, but starting froma long way away, but you never know when an idiot will suddendly speed past & maybe spook the dog).
He can be walked through screaming, playing, running kids, all the while keeping a slack lead & looking at me, he can be walked past barking, lunging dogs, with a slack lead. He can be walking along a path and have a person on a bicycle ride past him from behind us - he doesn't flinch (as a pup he would try to pull my children off thier bikes in play ).
While meeting dogs, due to the fact I have such control with the 3 leads, I can keep them slack without worrying about not having controll (even when he was very exciteble on meeting dogs).

So to sum up all my waffle, the 'bondgae gear' I sugested, was not as a means to permenantly manage the problem, but as a way of giving confidance to the owner as one has 100% control, should they need it, a pefect solution to bridge the gap while the dog is getting used to the muzlle while out on walks, (or, idealy to bridge the gap between a behaviourist), as forcing the dog to wlak with the muzzle will only cause more problems.