The English painter William Hogarth was deeply in love with the pug breed. He painted a self-portrait with his beloved pug "Trump." The dog in his self-portrait does not look exactly like the modern pug. It has a longer muzzle, which is only partly covered in black.

Did you ever consider that "Trump"  was not he best example of the breed...

i could show you a 100 Boxers with longer muzzle`s , does not mean they are good examples of the breed.

So going on one painting from the past, does not typify the breed in "that" day!!

1.If you look at the old picture of the pug it's unbelievable how breeders have chosen to squash their muzzles shorter and shorter.
2. All I want is for pug breeders to reverse some of the issues by for example lengthening the muzzle.
3. Breeders are responsible for the way the breed looks today
three collective and for NO reason unjustified comments

This thread (IF you read back) started with my concern for my dogs problems. Some genetic. Some down to the breed standard. Initially (IF you read back) I referred only to one breeder and had the decency not to name them.
I have stated my concerns for the breed because of the short muzzle (one example). Then it turns into some sort of competition about the way they used to look in the past, completely moving away from the possibilities for the future which could benefit the breed.

There have been various questions of my knowledge and experience. I have every right NOT to tell you what I do and have seen.

Jackbox; so what is your opinion of "best example"?
yet again you are missing the point.
The longer muzzle would be better. End of.

jackbox i didn't make that point, olive did

olive i'm not arguing with your concerns, your entitled to them. i think its unfair to blame all breeders for your dogs illnesses. many brachiphalic breeds cope fine with the short muzzel, its usually down to poor breeding in those who have problems.

> There have been various questions of my knowledge and experience. I have every right NOT to tell you what I do and have seen.

i don't think i asked but if you are going to declare things people are going to ask where you got your ideas from.

>The English painter William Hogarth was deeply in love with the pug breed. He painted a self-portrait with his beloved pug "Trump." The dog in his self-portrait does not look exactly like the modern pug.

Byron was very fond of his dog Boatswain who was supposed to be a Newfoundland ... paintings aren't always a reliable indication of how things actually looked! ;-)

i have a sneaking suspicion flufffluff39 is back

mahonc explain if you would like to

Me too

MM I didn't say it was I asked the question had it been considered.

> Not linked to the shape of the skull QED

- I believe the statement is that it is not THOUGHT to be. That doesn't sound definitive, but if it isn't then it's simply another of those wretched inherited diseases that responsible cav breeders are now screening for. I am not attacking pugs or cavs. My point was simply that many problems may be attributable to construction, and had breed clubs considered construction as an issue. 

> They weren't proposing any change as their dogs are bred to what they interpret as the breed standard.

Then the answer here to my question should have been no, they are not considering there is a problem with construction. Neither are the 'other side'.

Brainless, that link was fascinating.

As a general observation it seems that virtually every breed was much lighter in body structure back then. There are some strange examples when compared with what we see today.

I didn't notice any really terrible construction (apart from a very odd looking Great Dane) but haven't been able to look at them all. The Dachs body looks much shorter, and the peke much taller and finer, same with the pug.

One of the dogs that caught my eye though were the Boston Terriers - what fine looking dogs. Don't know much about the bostons of today, but largely I think that the ones I have met have looked very similar.

The GSD is amazing, absolutely like nothing being bred today, I wonder what he was like in the field. What a shame they didn't have video back then, would love to have seen this dog move.

By the way, just in case anyone thinks I have it in for pugs, I think they are brilliant little dogs with bags of character :)
My postings on here are solely in considering the possibility of righting some breeding exaggerations (not hereditary diseases, although that may be a nice surprise by product in a very few cases) by breeding initiatives. - I am not suggesting it is a cure all for all diseases.

Hmmm.   As I said earlier, hmmmm.   

Olive - you say that you researched "at least four books" before purchasing a pug.   How long did your research take?   A year?   Six months?   Three months?   Long enough to read four books?   Hmmm.

As someone else stated Ancient Chinese documents state that short-nosed dogs with the description matching that of the Pug existed in China at around 700 BC. These dogs were only breed and owned by the emperors.

But your research says "Considering the pug gene pool originates from around only 50 dogs, without improvement, surely we could be looking at a possible mutational meltdown ahead." - did you not question these anomolies before investing a lifetime into a breed of dogs?  

You also say "No my name is not Jemima. Jemima Harrison has done some brilliant work and continues to do so.
and ........."All I have had from most on here who are mainly breeders is attack. If none of you are EVER open to ideas then how can any member of public come forward and speak out with their views. The only impression you give out is that no one is allowed to ever critisize a breed because you all know best and us uneducated public (many of whom you probably sell your dogs to) shouldn't step out of line, take advice from our vets."

I would respectfully point out that the code of veterinary practice makes the points :-
Your clients are entitled to expect that you will:

a. make animal welfare your first consideration in seeking to provide the most appropriate attention for animals committed to your care

b. ensure that all animals under your care are treated humanely and with respect

c. maintain and continue to develop your professional knowledge and skills

d. foster and maintain a good relationship with your clients, earning their trust, respecting their views and protecting client confidentiality

e. uphold the good reputation of the veterinary profession

f. ensure the integrity of veterinary certification

g. foster and endeavour to maintain good relationships with your professional colleagues

h. understand and comply with your legal obligations in relation to the prescription, safe-keeping and supply of veterinary medicinal products

i. familiarise yourself with and observe the relevant legislation in relation to veterinary surgeons as individual members of the profession, employers, employees and business owners

j. respond promptly, fully and courteously to complaints and criticism

It does not set forth breeding guidelines!

Oh well - back to the drawing board!

> who was supposed to be a Newfoundland

surely thats a funny looking collie? or he's a dodgy painter...

>surely thats a funny looking collie? or he's a dodgy painter...

That's why you can't always rely on paintings for accuracy. ;-) He's included in a picture here, looking more like a Newfie should!

still doesn't look much like a newfie to me lol

Although you can only see him from the back in the painting, he's more like this Newfie from 1903.

Jackbox; so what is your opinion of "best example"?
yet again you are missing the point.
The longer muzzle would be better. End of.

The best example for any breed, from any era, would surely be .. recorded "champions" of  said day????  , not the painting of one dog ownd by one man!!

Nor I am not missing the  " the point"     the long muzzle is YOUR opinion, based on owning ONE dog, in the breeds history.

The fact you have the misfortune to  have found yourself in owner of a unhealthy one, does not give you cart blanche to redesign the breed, from one unfortunate  experience.

The point YOU are missing is your condemnation of ALL breeders and your tunnel vision, that you suddenly know best!!!

This thread has become confrontational and overly personal its is being Locked.