http://www.thegundogclub.co.uk/Reference/training/clickerretrieve.htm  Have any of you folks used this method to train your dog to retrieve?  Retrievers or any dog?  Opinons?  Success stories?  Failures? I am working my Labrador boy with a neighbour who hunts, hunt tests and field trials.  I'd just like to try a hunt test.  So far my pup, 22 months old (yes, we're starting late), is hot to "trieve" but not so good on the "re".  :(

As you probably know, force fetching is very common on my side of the pond and I have been advised by the HRC we go to that I should.  But my trainer is not fond of that method and has not used it on his two or other dogs he has trained.  However he is not familiar with the method above though of course he knows about clickers.  I am trying it anyway.  It seems pretty well laid out.  We're up to a two second hold on our fourth day.  But it would be nice to hear from someone independant of that website as to how it worked for them?  How long it took with a Lab especially, but any dog?

Ive done quite a lot of clicker training over the years, it started when my horse just wouldnt lift his feet to be picked out, and had such a good response that I clicker trained a friends parrot to retrieve lol  Ive used clickers with all my dogs, and I wouldnt be without it now.  The way of retrieving that is in that article (Ive just skimmed it) is called 'reverse chaining' ie, starting with the end, the hold, and then working up to the throwing part.  Its a lovely positive reinforcement way of teaching the dog something, and I know that with my current dog, a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, who is not 'fetch' motivated at all, he will quite happily fetch for me in the lounge or garden. He's just doesnt have the concentration or the drive outside in a field to do it, but thats just him.  You just have to remember to generalise it for the dog, so when you have got them fetching in the house, make sure you practise it in the garden, then the local park, then the field, then the wood etc.  If you start with one particular object, fetching a ball, then if you want them to fetch something else, like a dummy, then you have to practise with that as well.

It took me a couple of weeks to get Alfie fetching, but then he doesnt have a retrieve drive, it took me ten minutes to get him to ring a cat bell on a collar on my back door key to tell me he wanted to go out to the garden!!  If I get the clicker out of the cupboard now, then Alfie goes bananas as he knows that there is something good going to happen.

I like clicker training, and the dogs become really focused and you can see their brains working to find out what got the click.  You can use a whistle for the same thing, although sometimes depending on how hard you blow it, it can make a different noise, the idea of the clicker box, is that its exactly the same noise every single time.  When the dog has completely mastered a task, dont forget to make the food reinforcement variable, so not every correct action gets a reward, this ensures that the dog will do the task if there isnt food around, and also firms up the command for you.

Hope that helps a bit.

Thanks, that does help a bit.  I am familiar with clicker training and the concept of "back chaining". 

I will tell you a story of the power of the clicker as it relates to my pup.  We used it for basic obedience.  In that training I have always learned, in nearly 30 years of different instructors, clicker or not, to say the dog's name then give the command.  Falls apart a bit in agility where I don't have time to say the name first but most agility commands are brand new.  Not so in retrieving trials where HERE is used a lot and without the dog's name, unless you are running more than one dog.  Oban was terrible at HERE and it was very consternating since I knew he had learned what it meant.  I thought.  After some time I noticed it did not fail when preceded by his name.  So I worked on that but had no success till I reintroduced the clicker (my HRC people did  not use it so I didn't either) and used a longline.  Finally it sank in that HERE meant come to me whether his name was said first or not but I was unable to teach him that till I clicked.  Even though we had also learned YES as an alternate to the clicker.

Still, I'd like to know if anyone has clickered the retrieve?  I found another clicker retrieve training site that said to get 9 out of 10 correct responses before advancing to the next step so I'm doing that.

Alfieshmalfie, oops. Looks like I did not acknowledge that you did clicker retrieve and I do realize you did, thanks again.  Did you follow a program like the one I posted a link to?  Or just make it up yourself?

Yep, it was the only way I could get Malinois to retrieve. Had to stop competing in obedience with Ripley as we couldn't get into Beginners as it necessitated a retrieve. With Rio, her daughter, I clicker trained the retrieve. Sometimes a bit too effective LOL as she will always look for things to pick up to carry back to me and hand to me. Once she emptied the Papillons' toybox of around 40 items, brought them to me one by one while I am wondering where the OFF SWITCH is located!! :) . With her I started off with clicking for just sniffing at an object, then for touching it, mouth round it etc etc. All you need to do now is show her a dumbbell and no commands are necessary.

I'm training my westie using the clicker method. It's working amazing so far. I haven't tried retrieve with him yet but I'm sure the resulsts would be just as good as with any other command I've taught him! :D Hope that helps!

http://www.thegundogclub.co.uk/Reference/training/clickerretrieve.htm  Have any of you folks used this method to train your dog to retrieve?  Retrievers or any dog?  Opinons?  Success stories?  Failures? I am working my Labrador boy with a neighbour who hunts, hunt tests and field trials.  I'd just like to try a hunt test.  So far my pup, 22 months old (yes, we're starting late), is hot to "trieve" but not so good on the "re".

I have done training for working trials with my Belgian and used the clicker for most of the training (WTs isn't gundog work as you may know, but does demand a lot from the dog and has a formal retrieve and a search square in which articles are found so a good retrieve is required).
I use the clicker anyway, and expected good results. I have a dog which targets my hand to put the article in, which is so enjoyable for us both. And she loves it.

I taught this by clicker training pick up dummy, Click  (and she dropped dummy), Treat - repeat about 20 times.
Then target the hand, click and treat, repeat about 20 times.
Then, set up dummy on floor and as she goes to pick it up, put my hand down by her muzzle and she pushed the dummy into my hand. Excellent for search square, may need  a tad more for formal retrieve but this can be shaped in small bits (eg you can shape separeatly the place in the mouth the dog holds the dummy, or shape the formal approach separately, etc).

I will say she was clicker savvy and knew how to respond to being "shaped" etc, it will be more slow if a dog is not used to clicker training, but should still work for sure :)

For more info on clicker training in general I'd suggest Pryor's Clicker Training for Dogs (shows in photos an Italian Greyhound being shaped to retrieve) and also possibly Morgan Spectors Obedience one, although that is very detailed so may not be quite what you would want. Also try goingon the Clickersolutions forum as it's very knowledgeable with a wide variety of members.

As you probably know, force fetching is very common on my side of the pond and I have been advised by the HRC we go to that I should.  But my trainer is not fond of that method and has not used it on his two or other dogs he has trained.  However he is not familiar with the method above though of course he knows about clickers.  I am trying it anyway.  It seems pretty well laid out.  We're up to a two second hold on our fourth day.  But it would be nice to hear from someone independant of that website as to how it worked for them?  How long it took with a Lab especially, but any dog?

Well done to you and your trainer!
Over here I believe forced retrieves are thankfully pretty rare. That shows that they are not required and indeed, for me the mark of a good dog trainer is to be able to get the best out of a dog using great techniques and motivation, not bullying which to me is what the FR is. Also, as they say, Pavlov is always on the shoulder, and that means if a dog is forced taught, the association of negative reinforcement training will always be there in association with gundog work. At the end of the day, it's for us, and often for competition, so FR is really bad in my view in so many ways. One can be so much more proud when teaching with a less harsh method.

Good luck!
Lindsay
x
There are some clicker books re gundog work, you may want to try a google for them and hopefully they may be of some assistance.

I am finding this quite interesting.  Pup has been challenging me.  I am sure he understands the concept, we used clickers to train from the get go.  But every now and then his happy, bright eyed face changes.  He narrows his eyes, lifts his muzzle and looks at me out of the corner of his eye.  It is unmistakably, NO, I'm NOT taking it.  When my (human) niece was younger she did the same bratty thing.  Niece, your lunch is ready, please turn off the T.V. and come upstairs and eat.  Eyes narrow, nose up, sideways look, NO.  I must say, the dog is a lot easier; no takee bumper, no clickee treatee.  :)  Today, as per the website, I introduced the word "fetch".  Up till now I have been absolutely silent.  No refusals today but several drops.

Thanks for everyone's comments.  If you like I'll post a couple of progress reports as we go along.  It sure does not look as if this is going to be any speedier a process than FF.

My two current dogs both of whom compete very successfully in Working Trials and one which competes very successfully in Schutzhund have been clicker trained for the retrieve something that is at the heart of both sports re dumbells in both and articles in the square in WT.

They both have excellent retrieves; it matters not which discipline you choose a retrieve is a retrieve and what everyone wants is a clean pick up, hold without moving the teeth or damaging the object and a clean out on command.

Clicker Gundog by Helen Philips is excellent.

No refusals today but several drops

Is the dog dropping when you click? just wondering (I read some of the website info but only skimmed it)
as the click ends the behaviour so if the dog is dropping when clicked, that would be correct..
I take it this is not what is happening, though?

Lindsay
x

No refusals today but several drops

Is the dog dropping when you click? just wondering (I read some of the website info but only skimmed it)
as the click ends the behaviour so if the dog is dropping when clicked, that would be correct..
I take it this is not what is happening, though?

No, if I do it correctly the bumper cannot drop when I click as I am not to click till my hand is back on the bumper.  He can open his mouth to release it when I put my hand back on.  He is dropping it due to improper placement of his jaws, ie. at the end of the bumper.  Then, when I release my hand for the 3 second count the weight of the bumper falls and pulls it out of his mouth and sometimes he drops it.  This is something new for him as the beginning steps work on getting the dog to take the bumper (I think the website is using an obedience dumbbell to start with, which would make it more obvious to the dog but I don't have one) in the middle.  He was good about the middle till now, perhaps a sign of over eagerness?  Which for us I interpret as good.  Of course if he drops it, no click, so I think it will be figured out.

I can see two possible problems arising.  #1 He grabs the end of the bumper (or eventual bird), knows it is going to fall and clamps his jaws shut too hard, or #2  He grabs a crippled bird in the wrong place and it gets away.

Yesterday I introduced the word "fetch".  It seems to have had a positive effect, more eager interaction and holds advancing to 4 seconds.  The whole thing is fascinating.

Oh.  And not one refusal yesterday.

Oh yes I see what is being done now. Sounds as if it's going OK then? :)

Ultimately the clicker is good for any kind of precision exercise such as where to put the mouth.
I was able to train my dog to carry articles in the very front of her mouth, because some articles
are quite small and I wasn't happy about that if she carried them too far back.
Clicker work opens possibilities nothing else does, IMO.
And done correctly it's so clear for the dog.

Lindsay
x

Not going well the past few days.  Many refusals and deliberate drops.  I'm using real roast beef as treats but they don't seem to be a strong enough incentive.  Today we quit after 12 minutes of training with the last few minutes being nothing but refusals.  Looks right into my eyes, none of the slanty eyed, up-turned nose, sideways look but a direct gaze, and will not take the bumper.  We did, earlier in today's session do a few 7 second holds.  As the site advises I am now varying the length of the hold.  Perhaps I misunderstood but once I got to the 5 second stage I started the varying the hold time bit.  Perhaps I was supposed to work up gradually to 10 seconds.  It's too bad I cannot find someone who has followed this exact same method.  The site has a forum but it's been "unavailable" since I started a week ago.

I'm wondering if you are training for too long?
clicker work can be mentally very tiring and most clicker sessions tend to be for about 5 minutes at the most of continual C and T.
Also things like timing etc can be crucial. A click a tiny bit out of place can give the dog the wrong info.

Has the dog been clicker trained previously?

Usually it has an eager dog desperate to do the required behaviour to obtain the reward so something somewhere isn't quite right as you realise...

If it would help, I will gladly look at a video of this being done and try to see if I can find any problems?
I don't pretend to be an expert on retrieve/dummy side of things but can sometimes spot clicker problems and as I said, have trained mine to retrieve :)

Lindsay
x

I'm wondering if you are training for too long?Could very well be.  The website says 15 minutes and I'm usually doing about 10.  The last two sessions were quite bad with many deliberate refusals and deliberate drops.  Confoundingly, I see improvement in our field work and just came back from a session that pleased me quite a bit.  Could the clicker retrieve be working in areas I did not anticipate so soon?  Who knows.

Has the dog been clicker trained previously?See the third post.  Clickers from the get go in our very first obedience class. 

Usually it has an eager dog desperate to do the required behaviour to obtain the reward so something somewhere isn't quite right as you realise...He seems more than eager to work in the field or my trainer would not waste his time with us, I think.

If it would help, I will gladly look at a videoThank you, that's a very kind offer.  I'll see if I can get one.

We did not do any clicker work today.  When things go stale I often take a vacation from training, just did not expect it to be needed after a mere week of work.  :(  Went to a field trial, in an effort to see where all this might lead.  The whole thing is new to me.  Part of the problem for me is I am working towards an end, a hunt test, where I have never seen a hunt test.  Pup stayed at home but did some good water retrieves for me on an outing this morning and then again tonight.