Hi,

I am interested to know what health tests are required for 'bulldog' breeds.
I don't have a pedigree british but I do have an OTB, I know a lot of people disagree with this 'crossbreed' but I'm not looking for criticism, I would rather have her the tests required for each breed within her makeup than just go ahead and breed her without them.

I have previously bred Sibes, Yorkies and rough collies so they were 'recognised' breeds and I had not problem deciding which tests they required. A canny few years ago I might add.

If breeders are to 'make' a new breed then I feel the relevant tests should be carried out from the outset.
I've never owned a british bulldog, I wanted one that reminded of the old ones I remembered from childhood, I've not been able to find one since I've been in a financial situation where I could get one.
I know exactly what I am looking for in my 'end result'. I'm prepared for this to take years.

I don't want to debate the 'british bulldog' as it is now or the changes that are happening within the breed at present.
I simply want to know the tests I should consider before breeding my bitch at a much later date as she is only 9 months old at the present time.

My bitch is 50% AmBull/45% BB/5% neopolitan.

I will not enter into debate/argument or criticism.

Thankyou to anyone who is prepared to help with this.

For the bulldogs there arent any health tests however the bulldog breed council have set up a breed health certificate
whereby you go to an "approved" bulldog vet who goes over the dog or bitch and issues a certificate with
the good and bad points of the dog.

Would they test an OTB though???

I have found that it can be beneficial to test for elbows, hips and eyes but that sort of goes for any breeding really!

If the bulldog breed council would test her I have no problem with that but I doubt they would test what they would think was basically a crossbreed. How would I find out?

I guess not as it says on it bulldog breed council Health test,
We eye  test and heart test our bulldogs too.

I think anything that helps any breed is worth doing.
Heart testing costs about £40
Not sure if you could eye test as we have to show our kc papers but Im sure someone else may advise.

>My bitch is 50% AmBull/45% BB/5% neopolitan.

What is the BB standing for?

> I have found that it can be beneficial to test for elbows, hips and eyes but that sort of goes for any breeding really

im not sure how you can plan to score hips and elbows when there is no actual breed to do an average score from. the score is taken from what is the average from that breed so how can a deciasion be made on what is actually a cross breed.

a "new breed" takes many many many years to get right and that is with the experts who have known, and researched it for years.

your best just having and enjoying the dog as a pet as you seem to be very straight that you want to do things correct but it just would not be possible.

> What is the BB standing for?

british bulldog?

> im not sure how you can plan to score hips and elbows when there is no actual breed to do an average score from. the score is taken from what is the average from that breed so how can a deciasion be made on what is actually a cross breed.
>

The average score for a breed is not taken into account when a dog is scored, all dogs are scored against the same criteria regardless of the breed. Any dog can be hipscored as long as it's KC registered - and any dog can be KC registered (crossbreeds go on the activity register).

The BVA currently publish BMS for Labradoodles, American Bulldogs, Utanogans and Inuits, so I don't see why the OP can't have her dog scored if she wishes.

what is the point in having the dog scored if there is no breed average to compare it to? I had my boy scored before he was used at stud, his score was below breed average therefore he was used, if it had been above then he wouldnt have been used,  but if the dog is a cross breed then there is no breed average therefore no marker for good/bad hips.

>The average score for a breed is not taken into account when a dog is scored, all dogs are scored against the same criteria regardless of the breed. Any dog can be hipscored as long as it's KC registered - and any dog can be KC registered (crossbreeds go on the activity register).

Even unregistered dogs can be scored; they only need to be identifiable. Each individual will receive a score, and the lower the score the better the hips, regardless of any average. Out of interest I wonder what the overall average of all dogs of all breeds scored actually is.

The average score for bulldogs is 41, with a range of 10 to 88.

> What is the BB standing for?

>british bulldog?

I had thought that, but wanted to make sure as I was confused as to why any OTB breeder would add Neo into the mix.

American bulldogs are crossed with anything,from mastiff to dane to staffies there doesnt seem to be a set "mix" to become an American Bulldog.

I'd like to know how any dog becomes 5% of any pedigree/ancestry?

First generation each parent accounts for 50%, the previous generation 25%, then 12.5%, then 6.25%, 3.125%

To the original poster I would do all the tests applicable to any of the breed that may be in the back ground, which could be dozens as the American Bulldog itself is a mishmash cross and not a formalised breed.

So this would be Hip Scoring, Elbow Scoring, eye testing, (not sure about which DNA tests are available, but the one for the staffie eye conditions and the metabolic problem come to mind), Certainly blood testing for Thryroid function, and some of the physical tests that the Bulldog breed council have for the Bulldog breed.

>American bulldogs are crossed with anything,from mastiff to dane to staffies there doesnt seem to be a set "mix" to become an American Bulldog.

I'm confused as to what you mean? Do you mean in creating the American Bulldog or do you just mean breeding practises now? Just like any breed, an American Bulldog can be crossed with anything, but crossing it with anything doesn't make it an American Bulldog. If anything, crossing an American Bulldog with a Mastiff is what is known as a Bandog or Bull and Mastiff type. That was how the Bullmastiff came about as a recognised breed, from the Bandog.

Including a Neapolitan Mastiff in an OTB breeding program would serve no purpose at all, completely different construction and head shape and it would only add to the list of possible health problems, along with adding too much size if it was a serious OTB breeding program.
There are only two UK breeding programs that are worth anything as regards to OTB's from which you can be pretty sure of what you are getting and that's the Victorian Bulldog created by the late Ken Mollett and the Dorset OTB created by Steve Barnett. I have heard the Dorsett is a more athletic and healthier dog, but that's not from personal experience. I personally like Gargoyle Kennel's Renascence Bulldogs, but they are US based, as Chadde is atleast creating a breed and working it, instead of just marketing it! If I had to choose a dog in this country, it would definately be a Dorset OTB, purely because you know what you are getting, know how the dog will turn out in looks and temperment and have the support of a number of other enthusiasts within the breed.

>I'd like to know how any dog becomes 5% of any pedigree/ancestry?

>First generation each parent accounts for 50%, the previous generation 25%, then 12.5%, then 6.25%, 3.125%

That was going to be my next post Brainless. LOL

Some have been hipscored, but in reality their scores seem just as bad as the few BB's that have been done.  I would at the very least get her hipscored if you were going to go that way.

Were there not Epilepsy issues with one line of retro bulldogs being bred the the UK?

I seem to remember posts alluding to something like this a few years ago?

Nope it was Wobblers.
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/69361.html

and this thread refers.

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/84373.html

Both the Great Dane clubs and Doberman clubs will ahve lots of info on Wobblers.

That would be the Aylestone line. The dog was diagnosed with Wobblers and it took a lot of heartache, time and expense and only the pure dedication of the owner managed to save the dog. As far as I was told, they (the breeders) told the owner it is was 'rickets' and still continued to breed from the affected dogs' parents.
They are the ones who recommend the dog is fed on just boiled chicken mince up to the age of 16 weeks due to them not being able to digest complete puppy food at such a young age.

Trying to breed healthy animals in established breeds with the support of many knowledgeable breeders is hard enough, I think trying to do so with trying to create/recreate a breed with breeders with varying aims and experience not to mention ethics is fraught with difficulty and personally not something to be attempted by the average dog owner/enthusiast.

To do so without repeating the mistakes that have gone before with many breeds would take a dyed in the wool dog person with long experience in producing sound healthy stock in recognised breeding programs.

In the modern world I can see not reason to do it, there are more than enough breeds to suit any taste or purpose.

Just the numbers needed for a healthy breeding gene pool to be established and the necessary culling of specimens that don not meet the requirements is morally questionable (culling does no necessarily mean killing in this context, but removing from the breeding pool).  Those rejected animals would need to be found homes.

> what is the point in having the dog scored if there is no breed average to compare it to?

to establish an average. if that argument was made to the owners of the first few dogs scored you'd have no average to compare your boys hips to :)

pretty much everyone here agrees that no dog should be bred without as full testing as possible being done. OTB's are growing in popularity and are being bred more and more, the problem with this is the lack of intent in creating an actual breed (aiming for a standard etc) and the lack of care for health testing. this person would like to see the breed establish itself and wants to go about it the right way, which merits praise in my view.

all our breeds started somewhere after all, usually a cross, and its only through the dilligent work of breed founders that we have the dogs we do now.

OP, for reference for the hips you are going a bit blind. since you know the make up of your dog though why not compare hip scores against the scores of the parent breeds? i'd also be inclined to conduct all the tests usually applied to those breeds as of course they could all pass on genetic issues.

i think aiming to start a new breed is a huge task that will take a lot of work and a lot of research, you'll need more than just you as well. you might want to try looking up silken windhounds and see how they are going about it

> OP, for reference for the hips you are going a bit blind.

To be honest the breed average is just a tool to know how a breed stands, but an individual score can be in the functionally normal range or be clinically dysplastic.

I find it helpful to use this chart at the bottom of this page http://www.offa.org/hipgrade.html comparing the main scoring systems to give an idea of what a score means for the dog.

oh I agree all breeds need to start somewhere but if this dog is a cross between 3 different breeds and another old tyme bulldog is a cross between different breeds then you still arent really establishing an average.  Of course though you are better off scoring than not scoring at all - but at what point do you say that score is too high?  I suppose you would have to take the highest average of all of the breeds and compare to that.

>I find it helpful to use this chart at the bottom of this page http://www.offa.org/hipgrade.html comparing the main scoring systems to give an idea of what a score means for the dog.

and there you have it - disregard my above post :)

As a non breeder I looked at the responses and Ok all the usual health tests are mentioned but when a bulldog breed is mentioned the other soundness issues seem more important, such as ability to breathe properly, not have skin problems, go for a decent length walk,  run about, and breed without C sections.

These are covered in the bulldog breed council health test,testing for open nostrils,clear eyes,good nose roll (not huge)
good limbs, patellas, heart, tail etc etc.

My bitch is 50% AmBull/45% BB/5% neopolitan.

You would definately need to hipscore and elbow score and also test for NCL (Neuronal Canine Ceroid Lipofuscinosis).

Usually anything with American Bulldog crossed within the bloodline is refered to as ''Olde English'' ;)

If I were you I'd research a little more to know exactly what you have it is very rare to get Neopolitan crossed within an ''Olde Tyme/Victorian Bulldog'' bloodline, dogs with such bloodlines crossed with Am Bulls are usually known as ''Bandogges'' not ''Bulldogs''.........

Problem is though here in the UK, anything that is an oversized Staffie seems to be called an American Bulldog.

>Problem is though here in the UK, anything that is an oversized Staffie seems to be called an American Bulldog.

Really? I know most people assume an oversized Staff to be a Pitbull, but can see how certain Am Bulldog lines could be confused by those that aren't experienced with bull breeds.

Afraid I have nothing to add, but just to say Hi, long time no see and good to see you around hun :) :) :)
Hows the managarie up there :) :) :)
Lea :) :)

>If I were you I'd research a little more to know exactly what you have it is very rare to get Neopolitan crossed within an ''Olde Tyme/Victorian Bulldog'' bloodline, dogs with such bloodlines crossed with Am Bulls are usually known as ''Bandogges'' not ''Bulldogs''.........

That would be correct, although the term 'Bandogge' is what they would have been called originally, just like the 'Bulldogge'. These days they are normally just called Bandogs.

I can remember an Old Tyme Bulldogge x Neapolitan litter advertised two years or so ago, probably a little more, as I didn't take much interest in it other than it being an unusual cross. Even if not related to this litter, how you'd only have 5% Neo in the mix has me stumped. Prospective purchasers may want to know detailed history on the dogs behind the breeding or you may well just have people wanting a cheap alternative bulldog in which case, you'll get away without knowing I guess.

>when a bulldog breed is mentioned the other soundness issues seem more important, such as ability to breathe properly, not have skin problems, go for a decent length walk,  run about, and breed without C sections.

Anyone hoping to create a line of healthier alternative Bulldogs should have all of this very much in mind before they start, otherwise they'd really be no point to breeding the dogs at all.

Thanks for the replies and the lack of criticism.

My girl is only 9 months at the moment so I have a long time to consider whether I will breed her, I'd like to, I'll be having Elbow and hips done if I can find where I would have these done with her.
I know my local eye testing and hip testing vets so I'll start by asking them.
I'll be finding out about he other tests that have been mentioned, I'd already thought about heart testing.
I'm going to read through all the links that are on here.

I do have a 'family tree' for her. I trust the breeder has told me everything correctly.

He said the mother was 90% british and 10% neo, how this was worked out I don't know, I'll have to get back in touch with him. I'm in touch with him regularly although he lives 3 hours away. Maybe if the 'math' were done correctly my girl is only 3%+ Neo.

She has excellent breathing and is a lean fit dog at the moment although I know this may change as she matures.

How would I add a photo of my girl to this thread???

I'm going back to re-read the thread I'm bound to have missed something.

That litter was right up near to you, maybe if not related, it might have something to do with the breeder who bred them? I can't remember the lady's name now, but there were two of them up around that area breeding Neo's quite regularly (Mahogany and Blonde) and it's possible that was also related to or friends of friends etc... with the OTB x Neo litter. Anyway, if you need any help, let me know.

Been talking to the breeder of my girl and she is  in fact...

6.25% neo
43.75 BB
50% AmBull.

So she has a Neo as a 4th generation ancestor, backcrossed for 3 generations to Bulldog, and then outcossed to the American Bullodog (bullbreed crossbreed)???

I'd want to know what was in the Am Bulldog part of the pedigree.

Yes she is a bull breed crossbreed I never said different.

The father is AmBull for many generations so although not an accepted breed here he is 'true' to his breeding. He was bred from Johnsons Wonder Boy.

Her family tree, pedigree afterall that is what it is, hasnt' got the breeds on it unfortunately.
For three generations the bitches ancestors have been neo x bulldog bitches put to british bulldog dogs. So yes that makes the pedigree neo four generations back. Making the mother of my bitch 87.5% BB and 12.5% neo not as I said before 90/10.

I've been reading up on the NCL tests as well but I can only find tests in the USA and Germany. It appears that this is a very important test to have I think.
I can take her to a vet nearby for elbow and hip scoring as well as having her eyes done.

> Yes she is a bull breed crossbreed I never said different.
>
> The father is AmBull for many generations

What I meant by wanting to know the make up of the Ambull would be to know what breeds have gone into the crosses so as to give an idea of which additional health issues might need looking at. :)

I honestly can't say much about the sires pedigree other than to say he is from a long line of AmBull breedings.
I have been told he was bred by Andy James, I've been looking at his site but it hasnt' been updated since 2006, he's been breeding AmBulls for years.

I have a 3 gen pedigree here but as I say it hasnt' got the breeds on it.

> I have a 3 gen pedigree here but as I say it hasn't' got the breeds on it.

I really cannot see how a 3 generation pedigree, without the breeds on it can be any use as a breeding tool when trying to create a new breed.

If this is your/your breeders serious intention then you want to be able to go back say 10 generations with all the ancestors and all their health testing on it.

American Bulldogs have been put through OFA (American hip scheme) and you should be able to search their database for results of dogs in the pedigree, same with elbows ans also I suspect CERF the organisation for eyes.

Looking at OFA American bulldogs Rank 17th (1st is worst, and is the Bulldog) in Hip status. Have had 1512 evaluated, with 4.8% scoring Excellent and 32.9% in the Dysplastic categories (above 25 UK score).  http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html

Elbows: Rank 9th, 287 evaluated, 80.5% normal, http://www.offa.org/elbowstatbreed.html

There are also stats for Patella Luxation, Cardiac, Thyroid http://www.offa.org/stats.html

Also a link on left for CERF info.

You can search the databases using names or registration numbers.

Here you will find the Hip data for the BVA/KC scheme

F: Breeds not currently recognised by the Kennel Club (8)
American Bulldog 314 scored, range of scores0-102, Mean score  18.http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/CHS_Hip_Scheme_Breed_Mean_Scores.pdf

The other canine Health schemes run by the BVA are here: http://www.bva.co.uk/canine_health_schemes/Hip_Scheme.aspx

Thanks for the links.

I know that a 3 gen pedigree isn't going to help much at the moment.
I've been told who bred the sire of my bitch so I'm going to see if I can get in touch with him and verify that it is a dog he bred and then I'll be able to at least go further back with him.
If I can also find out the original Neo and Bulldog that were bred together I can go further with them as well.

Of course if when I have my girl tested she doesn't have acceptable results then she wont' be having a litter anyway.

> Of course if when I have my girl tested she doesn't have acceptable results then she wont' be having a litter anyway.

Thing is when deciding to breed, especially taking part in creating a new breed you really need to have a long term plan, obviously plans may change in light of experience but there should be set goals with each generation, working out where each litter will fit into the plans for 'the breed' and a plan to achieve it.

Such a thing cannot be achieved by one person working alone so the people your involved with should be involving you and be involved with others with the same goals, otherwise it's just producing pups.

I'm looking at this now for that exact purpose.
I am trying to find people I can trust to help with the programme.

I, personally, know what I'd like to produce in generations to come but I need to find someone who is looking for the same results.

This is something I've been looking at for many years but in the area I live I could only find the wrong kind of owners so I had to travel to find someone who had half an idea of what I was looking for.

> honestly can't say much about the sires pedigree other than to say he is from a long line of AmBull breedings

not a dog i would use to start in creating a new a breed, you need to know exactly what your dealing with.

not a dog i would use to start in creating a new a breed, you need to know exactly what your dealing with.

Very wise and good advice.  It's important to know as much as possible about all ancestors before thinking about any sort of breeding otherwise you have no idea about what problems may be produced. :)

> It's important to know as much as possible about all ancestors before thinking about any sort of breeding otherwise you have no idea about what problems may be produced. :)

This is what should have been the original breeders (plural, all those supposedly striving to produce and old fashioned healthier bulldog type) aims.  As you have found the stated aims or intentions often seam to get side tracked.

Perhaps the way to go is to get together like minded people say at least 20 people with the facilities to breed and run on stock.

Then you start sourcing foundation stock which has all the health tests, start your breeding program, evaluate each generation, add to the original foundation stock to get as wide a gene base while back breeding to the relevant breed/s.

You cannot establish a sound structure on feet of clay.  To breed from a mishmash of untested foundation stock supposedly to improve the health of a breed is flawed.

Of course the biggest ethical dilemma is what to do with all the dogs bred those that will further the breeding program and those that won't.  With the latter can you ensure that they are neutered and not used for breeding by people with less high minded aims?

This will be something that will need a lifetimes commitment by a reliable and increasing bore of people.

Being realistic here, is that likely to happen.

Personally I would be looking to work from inside a recognised established breed and breed health dogs of a breed that appeals.

> Of course the biggest ethical dilemma is what to do with all the dogs bred those that will further the breeding program and those that won't.  With the latter can you ensure that they are neutered and not used for breeding by people with less high minded aims?
>

this issue would probably boil down to culling, which many (including myself except in the most dire of circumstance) disagree with- why i'd never set out to design a new breed.

> this issue would probably boil down to culling, which many (including myself except in the most dire of circumstance) disagree with- why i'd never set out to design a new breed.

The alternative is to try and find homes for the surplus, therefore taking away homes from dogs already in need.

When someone is looking for a purebred dog they know what they are getting (if the breeder breeds typical examples) whereas the results from such breed Establishment are unpredictable.

I know Bruce Cattanagh crossbred to get the 'bobtail' gene into the boxer, but it is different as he didn't need to use a huge number of dogs to introduce the gene into the mainstream, and only the first two generations had untypical traits re boxer looks.

Also the risks of reduced gene pool don't occur as it was a simple gene with known inheritance pattern and those offspring displaying the trait will pass it on so it can be bred into the wider population until there is very little of the original dogs genes as a proportion left, but still keeping the trait.

This is a very interesting article: http://www.caninechronicle.com/Features/Battaglia_07/battaglia_207.html

> The alternative is to try and find homes for the surplus, therefore taking away homes from dogs already in need.
>

why i would not disagree with a breeder doing it as its a fair point :) i just don't think i could myself because i'm a wimp

hi
There is a health test for bulldogs (DNA test) which is fully supported by the kc and supplied by the AHT for urate stone disease, it is also available to bulldog crosses as its being used by the Victorian bulldog enthusiasts already,

http://www.aht.org.uk/genetics_US.html