On a forum I was looking at, a man's dog broke its leg, now the man dose not have insurance and is low on funds. So he took the dog to a local RSPCA they gave the dog temporary treatment. But told the man they will only do surgery if he agrees to get the dog neutered  He in no way wants the dog neutered .He has tried all the vets to see if they will take instalment but to no avail.  So he has no chose but to take the dog back to the RSPCA . He has begged them not to neutered but all they said was if you don't neutered we wont treat your dog. I cant belie they would be so heartless. The dogs only 11 months old

cant see the problem myself?

Well for one thing, I believe the dog is to young to be neutered. I also don't think any dog should be neutered just for the sake of it. And I also believe the man has a right to choose. Not be bullied in to it. 

Your first point, thats just your opinion. Thousands upon thousands of dogs get neutered at this age, most vets are happy to do so. Even dogs from as early as 6 months do so.

Second - what type of dog is it?
If its not a pedigree dog, whats the point of not neutering? What difference does it make?
Personally, I'm more concerned with the hundreds and thousands of unwanted dogs in the UK that get killed due to lack of homes, so why risk adding to this problem?

Thirdly - you are right, he does have the right to chose.
He can choose to not take up the RSPCA generous offer.
Equally, the RSPCA, because they are an animal welfare charity, have a policy and philosophy of neutering and population control as per the reasons i outlined earlier.
That is their choice, and their freedom of choice is just as valid as this man's

Fourthly - no one has bullied him to neuter his dog, he has simply applied to a charitable scheme aware of the terms and conditions.

maybe he is known to them for other reasons !

In his position I would be thinking more of the heath of  my beloved dog rather than argue over neutering .

me too

I would be thinking more of the heath of  my beloved dog rather than argue over neutering

Absolutely... Is the poor dog left with in pain with a broken leg then while this man is taking days / weeks / hours ringing round vets and posting comments on forums?! To my knowledge if the leg is not set quickly it can start to heal in the wrong position and the dog will be deformed.

If this man is on low income maybe he should have thought twice about getting a dog?

The dog is a pedigree working dog. You don't know much about dogs if you think its OK to neutered at such a young age.  research has shown that neutering a dog to young, can bring on all sorts of problems . The man lost his job a few months back that's why he's low on funds. He dose care more about his dog that's why he's letting the RSPCA do the treatment.  But he's losing a  dog that could make a great stud dog in the process. And can you believe the RSPCA would be happy to let that dog suffer if the man had not agreed to there terms. He even offard to pay the RSPCA back when he could. . As for time. The dog broke its leg last night. The RSPCA WONT do treatment till this afternoon. Witch is why he has used the time to try and find a vet that can do it without neutering .I would have sent the link to the forum on here, but he's very upset and I can see you lot  wont understand

ok, if you wish to demonstrate your point of views are correct by slighting me and others, then ca sera sera.

we could play tit for tat all nights on the medical pros and cons of 11 month old neutering........ still, vets do it routinely. they dont have an issue. they do it at 6 months, so 11 isnt young when you add that context.

lets hope the chap comes to his senses

If this is a working dog that he has trained and is showing much promise already and he has in his mind that it may well make a good stud dog in the future for some of his own bitches or for others then I can fully understand his upset at not wanting the dog neutering, whether for show or working we all buy in our pick of the litters to hopefully be good breeding stock in the future.

In this case, can this man not get a loan from a friend or relative to avoid needing to use the RSPCA? Who is his vet?  Is he not registered with one? I thought all vets had to treat their own patients, ask the man to speak to the vet not the receptionist, they should work out a payment scheme with him.

My only concern here is that how will the dog fair after having it's leg broken, it may not fair too well as a working dog, most people want to see a dog with a FTCH under it's belt or at least having a go, but at the very least see it in action, it may well be fine after the op, but that must also be a consideration, I would want to know the extent of the damage likely as if it is going to now be seriously restricted then having the dog neutered will not make much difference.

I agree that given a choice none of us would neuter our dogs until fully mature, but if the man has no other financial back up and this is the only choice, what else can he do? :-(

I would seriously ring his vet again though, they have to help him.

in my opinion i would agree immediately, no preferably i would not want to neuter for obviuos reasons however for the dogs welfare i would be making a swift decision for the dogs sake.
they are ofering something which he cannot afford to do and as he has no other means of paying he needs to think of the pain and future of the dogs leg

> thought all vets had to treat their own patients

this is not true, my vet you have to pay in full before you leave and it is made clear from the start.

Many vets do have a notice up saying that, but if you've been with a vet for while they will offer a payment plan, especially over something like a dog having a broken leg, vets do have hearts, you just have to ask. :-)

He said his vet wont help. He tried  to get a loan but no joy. I don't know the man personally only from the forum. He also tried the PDSA but they said he was not in there catchment area .dogs booked in for 3.30pm RSPCA wont do it sooner. He's gutted as the dog was going to be used as a stud dog as its from very good working lines. He has been told though that the dog should be able to work fine . (quote from his friend -my bitch broke her hock bone had to have pins put in,made no difference at all working well with the pins in 2 years later ) at least that's something. I just feel sorry for him having to neuter his dog when he really didn't want to.

i agree my vet has recently done the same with me however i would imagine they have already refused as you would try your owne vet before the rspca surely?

I would have thought if the dog had that much potential then people in the working world would have wanted to help if they were really interested in him.

As far as I see it, the RSPCA offer to help on their own terms.  The owner has a choice whether he accepts their terms.

Most Vets are willing to come to some financial arrangement with their clients - I always try to remember that there are 2 sides to every story. ;) :)

Just to add 40 years ago no vet had their own X-ray equipment and so if your dog broke its leg on Thursday, it had to wait until the the Portable X-ray Van came for its weekly visit next Wednesday!  Times change eh? :)

> If its not a pedigree dog, whats the point of not neutering? What difference does it make?
>

I can't see why a pure-bred dog is more entitled to stay entire than a cross-breed/mongrel.

The RSPCA neuter dogs with the larger picture in mind - population control, not the dogs individual development. I have absolutely no intention of ever allowing my dog to sire a litter and equally have absolutely no intention of getting him castrated (suprisingly enough, it is very easy to stop a mongrel or a pure-bred dog from siring litters, I've managed that myself with an entire bitch living in the same house).
I would be mortified if finances forced me into seeking help from the RSPCA, only to find I would have to allow my dog to be castrated in order for him to recieve any help. It's a shame that the RSPCA can't focus on individual cases as individuals, not a potential statistic :(

To the OP, my last dog was not insured, he got ran-over by a car, I could not afford the treatment, our vets knew this and treated the dog with us paying by instalments. It is not standard practice for our vets to do this, but they have the animals welfare as thier prioritoy which I am always very grateful for.

> I just feel sorry for him having to neuter his dog when he really didn't want to.

but at least a charity is helping with the cost had they not have been there it would him moaning that he cant afford to pay for the op and thats that?
in the grand scheme of things as long as the dog isntr suffering with its leg he will just have to deal with it.
if he is just worried about it being at stud he isnt worried about potential issues from early neutering!
the dog is only 11 months so may not be able to sire anyway if the dog does not pass health checks

the way I see it is that he should be jolly grateful someone is going to do the expensive surgery, and he should have thought of the problems of vets bills before he bought the dog if he cant afford it. having just spent over £300 on one set of hip/elbows, how on earth did this chap imagine he would be able to afford to screen before this asset was bred from?

> how on earth did this chap imagine he would be able to afford to screen before this asset was bred from?

Some of us are unfortuante enough to have temporary financial setbacks, that caus financial hardship that will not last forever, but makes affording things in the present, very, very hard.

Some of us are unfortuante enough to have temporary financial setbacks, that caus financial hardship that will not last forever,
That can happen to any of us at any time in our lives and responsible people make provision for that and not live above their means, especially when we are responsible for children and animals.  Having been divorced when my daughter was 2 years old and been the sole provider, I've been there........... but was never in a position that I had more committments than I could afford.

I can't see why a pure-bred dog is more entitled to stay entire than a cross-breed/mongrel.

In theory, I agree
Because, like the RSPCA, i favour neutering due to the wider picture of population control.
However, I am not one of those anti-breeder extremists either, so i dont take issue with the breeding for the betterment of a breed by proven good lines, such as the breeders on champdogs.

However, i agree with the last 2 posters
If a chap, out of necessity, has to turn to the RSPCA, then he does so knowing their position on such issues, and therefore the terms of the charity offered.

So, lets not forget, this IS charity.

To that end, I would be focusing on the generosity of the RSPCA in my hour of need, and put aside my ideological differences.

> That can happen to any of us at any time in our lives and responsible people make provision for that and not live above their means, especially when we are responsible for children and animals.

You have obviously never been hit by financial hardship to the point you can't even afford to pay your dog insurance premiums and just live with hope that you can get back on your feet & be in a position to afford to recomence payment on those premiums before you need to use the insurance.

> So, lets not forget, this IS charity.
>
> To that end, I would be focusing on the generosity of the RSPCA in my hour of need, and put aside my ideological differences.

I too would be grateful that the RSPCA could help my pet, but it still is an awful position for the owner to be in :(

i hope he can find a vet that will do it, where does he live, all teh vets round here would do it.
11 months isnt too young.

i have to say, i hate the RSPCA. some of what they do is good, but they employ failed wanna be vets that have no idea, that rspca program on 5 just shows how stupid some of them are.  the policies are just wrong, and talk to any vet and you will soon find out that every vet hates them.

the sooner we get a PET NHS (PHS) the better.

the 11 months issue referred to the neutering, not the leg op.

and was just a side issue raised on this thread, nothing to do with the story

quote from the man )

up until a month ago  it wouldnt have made a diffrence how much it would have cost i had the money but now im knackerd  )
It's bad enough losing your job and now to have his working  dog brake a leg. then to struggle to get treatment, then be told his future dreams of maybe using the dog as a stud dog are out the window. I can only feel sorry for the man.

quote from man (-I  got no option, its either watch the dog suffer which i would never ever do or go to the rspca get his leg sorted there and ill have to have him neutered the same time.)
the man clearly loves his dog .

he undoubtedly loves his dog.

he will still be able to love him all the same, for what and whom he is, sans fatherhood?

I would also like to add that as a child my dad lost his job, we lost the house too and ended up sleeping in a van with two dogs and 3 cats. We went from something to nothing over night. Yet we never gave up are pets . We were a family and they were part of it. God forbid if one of the pets had needed treatment at the time.  although we struggled  we did get back on our feet still with the pets in tow. I know some people would have given up there pets. But sleeping with the dogs in the van was what got us throw it. We  knew we still had are family and we were still together.

I agree with Masifflover , when things go badly wrong sometimes its hard enough to keep a roof over your head and deal with day to day things  ,then to have your future aspirations dashed aswell  let alone a beloved pet needing expensive treatment  , I know the RSPCA are a charity but some compassion wouldnt go a miss .
yes if i was in that postion i would have to let them neuter too , but i wouldnt  like it either.

oh i know thats why i didnt go far with it, shame the opp is today. i hope they dont do it.

Difficult dilema, but i'd have to think of the dog and get his leg fixed, but i know our vets are very good my sisters dog broke its back leg and she rang me to take her to the vets thinking they would pts as it was bad, but no they said they would give it a go, she's only a very small dog so was going to be a difficult op to find pins so tiny but i told them she had been made redundant and money was tight so they asked if she could pay £20 a month till the bill was sorted, came to just over £300. Luckily she found another job and settled it quicker but they will normally do it but you have to ask.

Also if your not in the catchment area of the PDSA, you can ring their head office and they send out forms for you to register with them, you use your normal vet but you make them aware that they would have to send the bill to the PDSA and then they assess it and pay a certain amount towards it and you pay a small amount, i had to look into this when someone i know wasn't in the catchment area

> He said his vet wont help.

I'm sure my vet would help me with a payment plan if I was ever in that situation, I've always paid in full at time of treatment and have been a customer for many years.

It seems likely this man has messed his vets around with payments in the past, perhaps they're not willing to give credit if they know they won't get it back. Vets have bills to pay and the credit crunch affects them too.

You have obviously never been hit by financial hardship to the point you can't even afford to pay your dog insurance premiums and just live with hope that you can get back on your feet & be in a position to afford to recomence payment on those premiums before you need to use the insurance.

I've never even had dog insurance but I have gone out and done whatever was necessary (rather than say I can't do this and I can't do that!) to pay the bills and keep a roof over our heads.  Having walked out of my job (the only time ever) running a quarantine kennel because of the dreadful conditions that I was told to keep the dogs in, we had no money coming in and a pathetic bank balance.  So I went out with a bucket, sponge and chammy, knocked on doors and washed cars, taking my small daughter with me until I got another job!

But then I've always felt that we should all be responsible for ourselves and social security and charity should only be for those who are unable to do so. :(

It seems likely this man has messed his vets around with payments in the past, perhaps they're not willing to give credit if they know they won't get it back.

There's obviously more to this story, whatever it is! :)

> It seems likely this man has messed his vets around with payments in the past, perhaps they're not willing to give credit if they know they won't get it back.

It could be that the man has 'phoned his vets & spoken about this to the receptionist. I know our vets will come to arrangements re payments, but the receptionists insist on payment before leaving the building, as per the standard policy, so it has to be arranged with the actual vet (who then put a note on the dogs file re. payments, or you have the receptionist to deal with, LOL).

Well if I was a breeder, and was looking for a stud and a reliable stud owner, I would be steering clear of anyone who didnt have pet insurance and who cannot afford vets bills.

Maybe thats just me.

Charity is charity.

The terms with which it's given need to be accepted.

I'd feel a  little hypocritical to sympathise with this mans scenario of 'loss of potential stud dog' when :

I deplore the practice of breeding dogs on the PDSA ( and I've seen a big litter of Bulldogs by ceasar paid by the PDSA - not a one off)

Cant imagine this dog is so genetically special as to be needed for breeding by anyone else but the man himself.

i think if the chap has chosen the rspca for help he doesnt have any choice does he.

i can remenber having a big bill at the vets and i new i didnt have enough in my account so i had to run to the bank and break into my savings! i was so embarrassed! my vets will not do flexible payments.

a client of mine a couple of months ago took her dog for a operation, same vet as me, which involved the dog staying over night (i carnt remember what for now) she went the next morning to collect her dog and had just by chance forgotten to take her purse. the vets would not let the dog go until payment was made!!! she went home to get her purse and paid and all was fine apart from her been upset by it. shes has been going there for 25yrs. i checked this out for her and on the rcvs website they say vets are within their rights indeed to withhold an animal until fees are paid. better remember my purse everytime lol.

> Well if I was a breeder, and was looking for a stud and a reliable stud owner, I would be steering clear of anyone who didnt have pet insurance and who cannot afford vets bills.
>
> Maybe thats just me.

No that is a very good point BUT if you were looking for a stud dog, would the fact that the owner had been through financial hardship in the past (& subsequently had to dely relevent health tests & struggled with vet bills), effect your descision, or would it only matter that the dog had now passed all relevent health tests & the owner was in a good financial position (if anybody ever askes a stud dog owner what thier bank balance is like?).

my vets let me pay by monthly instalments after a cat of mine got run over and had a broken pelvis - took me a year to pay it off but they were happy to do that.

my vets take installments as well

> whats the point of not neutering? What difference does it make?
>

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

quote:

On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs, especially immature male dogs, in order to prevent future health problems. The number of health problems associated with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases.......

On the negative side, neutering male dogs
* if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
* increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
* triples the risk of hypothyroidism
* increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
* triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
* quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
* doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
* increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
* increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

This is a shame I think. Seems harsh if the guy even offered to pay RSPCA back. I agree it is a charity, but still a shame RSPCA won't budge.

Few years back our cat got attacked by fox and vet bill was about 150. Money was tight but the vet was really nice and said installments are fine.
Go back week later for the check up and head vet/owner calls us in and tells us we have to pay in full today! He said the other vet had no authority to agree to installments. He was really rude about it. Didn't have the money but a friend kindly let us it as he wouldn't agree at all.
Some vets may be more understanding.
Oh yeah and we had NOT messed them around before at all!

Anyway hope the dog makes a good recovery

>the sooner we get a PET NHS (PHS) the better.

And how exactly would that work?  And how exactly would it be funded? 

I am happy to pay the insurance premium to cover the health care of my own dogs but I'll be damned if I'm going to pay MORE tax than I already do to pay for the treatment of yours, or the latch key dog from up the road when it gets knocked down by a car, or anyone else's pet for that matter. I don't care if that sounds selfish as I work hard to afford what I have, including my dogs.  If people can't afford to pay for the health care of a dog then they shouldn't have one.  Simple as that.  Hard times can befall any of us and that's perhaps where the RSPCA/PDSA come in but if YOU can't afford to pay for the treatment YOUR dog requires then I'm afraid you may have to be prepared to compromise when someone else picks up the tab.  JMHO.

I can understand the ethos of the RSPCA re neutering - they see far too many unwanted dogs and even early neutering with all its related risks are worth it versus the effects of over-population of both pedigree and non-pedigree dogs.  As far as early neutering goes, just as Brainless said - the dog's far too young. 
I would always put the health of my dog over possible future matings, but, I know about struggling and know that having some hope of a future is what helps keep people going - if this man's future hope is based on breeding, then I can see why he's going through this dilemma. 
Not everyone is able to go knocking on doors for work - but - I think - if there's some glint of hope and belief in their capabilities and future they are more likely to do so.
Overall the man needs to see to his dogs' health first and foremost, but don't knock him too much wanting to mull over the problem and seek help/advice or even just get it off his chest!

>It seems likely this man has messed his vets around with payments in the past, perhaps they're not willing to give credit if they know they won't get it back.

>There's obviously more to this story, whatever it is! 

And how would you know that?

forgive me...lucky you, WestCoast, for never having been in that position--I have been a single parent for 15 years and have seen my own income drop by 60% in the last year--it's rare to be able to forecast one's income as a freelancer and I would not presume to be as judgmental as some folk on here. I work as a volunteer with people who are completely shell shocked by what they are about to lose through no real fault of their own and I wish some of the people sharing this thread could sit in on some of the sessions we run. A little compassion goes a long way in life.

dog bless you Brainless for a concise summary! The reason we have so many unwanted dogs is because they aren't cared for by responsibile, reliable humans. If anyone can think of a cure for that they deserve the Nobel prize.

raise taxes, it wouldnt have to be much, it would be cheaper than insurance.