My friend lives next door to a woman who says her dog which has only lived at this house for a couple of weeks is a long legged blue staffordshire that she has papers for? she is selling him for £500 he is 9 months old, now when I met him he looks like a pit bull? Now I've told my friend that the proper staffies have a height limit and are not blue? also his face is not staffie like at all. To settle are argument went online and googled- long legged blue staff's and got loads of puppies online for sale! where has this type of dog appeared from ? on line to me it looked like an American staff but I'm sure she wouldn't have one of them, there banned in the UK aren't they?

>the proper staffies have a height limit and are not blue

'Proper' staffies are ideally between 14" and 16", and blue is a perfectly acceptable colour.

I didn't know about this unusual colour for staff's... he certainly is not under 16 inches much taller- so most probably false papers with this hound anyhow.:-) Thanks for reply

where has this type of dog appeared from ?

From people who are not breeding to the breed standard, some people are breeding staffs to be bigger, taller and heavyer. i call them a street type staff, basickly just not show standard, you get this in many breeds. But some are crosses but they wont have KC papers. My brother has a dachshund that is just over twice the size of ut UK breed standard.

on line to me it looked like an American staff but I'm sure she wouldn't have one of them, there banned in the UK aren't they?

Yes and no, the American Staffordshire Terrier is not the same as an American Pitbull Terrier, (i emailed the AKC asking this for a project i did on the Dangerous Dogs Act and they confurmed this) BUT the act banns American Pitbull TYPES this means that any dog that looks enought like what they say a pitbull looks like is classed as a pitbull type regardless of parentage. And as Amstaffs look very simmler to pitbulls they would be affect as have some staffs

My friend the one that lives next door has said she would like to have him, but she already has a 2yr old boxer so have told her not a good idea as both male. They do get on only wire mesh separating them, I think he is being beaten as when you go to stroke him he really badly cows from your hand. the poor thing is just left outside 24 /7 but contacting the dog warden would mean death to this little lad due to what he looks like. He is such a sweet natured dog too. The people who have him are druggies anyway so wouldn't surprise me if he had a bit of pit in him.

> this unusual colour for staff's

it's not that unusual any more, but sadly people will still try and sell them as 'rare'!  same old, same old

It is very possible that your friend has a Stafford that is crossed with something else, it is also equally possible that the dog is KC registered, but just happens not to fit their standard.  It does happen.

American Staffordshire bull terrier : male, approximately 18 - 19" at the shoulder
UK Kennel Club Staffords bull terrier : 14 - 16" at the withers

http://www.amstaff.org/

The American Staff

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Pit_Bull_Terrier

The Pitbull

They do look different when you get the pictures up to compare and the American Staff is recognised by the AKC where the Pitbull is not.

DDA:
Dogs bred for fighting

(1) This section applies to--

(a) any dog of the type known as the pit bull terrier;

(b) any dog of the type known as the Japanese tosa; and

(c) any dog of any type designated for the purposes of this section by an order of the Secretary of State, being a type appearing to him to be bred for fighting or to have the characteristics of a type bred for that purpose.
::
t is important to note that, in the UK, dangerous dogs are classified by "type", not by breed label. This means that whether a dog is considered dangerous, and therefore prohibited, will depend on a judgment about its physical characteristics, and whether they match the description of a prohibited 'type'. This assessment of the physical characteristics is made by a court. A leaflet providing guidance on the physical characteristics that a court would consider in reaching its judgement can be found below.

So in actual fact this lad if an American Staff it would appear and can be confirmed as one may have the chance of a life, if shows no signs of aggression.
It would really only be the Police seizing a dog like this as a general rule, and some of the dog handlers i know don't agree with BSL and therefore if no issue with the dog in any way then let it be. But each case is warrented on its own merit.

> would mean death to this little lad due to what he looks like.

why?

because if the dog warden/police think it is a banned pit bull type- which looking at the link looks just like it apart from being blue- will remove from the home and destroy them... They are an illegal breed meaning no ones allowed to own one?

but you had also said that the dog has a lovely nature, and that your friends neighbour has papers for him, so why would the dog be removed?

I'm aware of what an illegal breed means.. thanks.

> but you had also said that the dog has a lovely nature, and that your friends neighbour has papers for him, so why would the dog be removed?

The authorities don't care if dogs have lovely natures. They can be siezed purely on looks alone.

They are an illegal breed meaning no ones allowed to own one?

The DDA was amended years ago and the register of exempt dogs opened up. That means if any dog is now found to be "of the type" it can be registered, tattooed, microchipped, neutered, must be muzzled and on a lead when out in public, but does not have to be put to sleep if the owners agree to the conditions.

> The authorities don't care if dogs have lovely natures. They can be siezed purely on looks alone.

Seizure, entry of premises and evidence

(1) A constable or an officer of a local authority authorised by it to exercise the powers conferred by this subsection may seize--

(a) any dog which appears to him to be a dog to which section 1 above applies and which is in a public place--

(i) after the time when possession or custody of it has become unlawful by virtue of that section; or

(ii) before that time, without being muzzled and kept on a lead;

I know quoting the DDA itself doesn't prove or disprove anything.  I'm sure there are dogs who have just been seized on looks alone.

But my point being, wouldn't Magica also be concerned for her own Stafford crosses too?
The other point being, the dog to which Magica refers, could quite easily be a KC reg'd Stafford OR a cross breed, but not necessarily a pitbull.  I feel this 'term', 'type' or whatever you wish to call it is bandied about far too easily these days to describe a miriad of cross bred dogs, Staffords in particular!  :-)

> i call them a street type staff, basickly just not show standard,

Oh Jo :-(  My poor male KC registered Stafford will be most hurt by that comment.  He's slightly 'leggier' than some people's ideal Stafford.

do you know if she got it from a breeder, if she got it from a pet shop, then teh papers are almost deffinatley false and if from a puppy farm, it could be a pure bred staff, alot of puppy farmed dogs are far from standard as you may now.

> But my point being, wouldn't Magica also be concerned for her own Stafford crosses too?
> The other point being, the dog to which Magica refers, could quite easily be a KC reg'd Stafford OR a cross breed, but not necessarily a pitbull.  I feel this 'term', 'type' or whatever you wish to call it is bandied about far too easily these days to describe a miriad of cross bred dogs, Staffords in particular!  :-)

Don't have to worry about my 2 terrier crosses don't look  pit bull at all, its in the face I see the difference between staffs & APT- only starsky the brindle looked very much like a presa canario dog, just smaller :-)

> Don't have to worry about my 2 terrier crosses don't look  pit bull at all, its in the face I see the difference between staffs & APT

Well, I'm glad to hear it.  But there's nowt queerer than folk, as they say, and sadly some folk are just ignorant.

I have been asked recently if my lad is a pitbull.  Apart from him being fairly athletic looking and slightly leggy because of his slim build, he has a 'typical' Stafford look, i.e. quite large head (but not the oversized, overdone, wide head you often see!).

Imagine if, as Karen1 suggested can happen, he were simply seized without question, based on a 'look'. 

I have seen lots of dogs that look very much like APBT's in my area, all with the same 'type' of owner  :-(

Very worrying indeed shame they get bad press-
I've booked my 2 youngsters into kennel for tomorrow and talking to the lady owner said their terrier mixes because they have staff, patterdale terrier plus lab in them and that starsky has the personality of a labrador, Tinkerbell is very much more staffie attitude- the lady ignored me and still said ok two staffie crosses! So thats the breed/label she has deemed them to be.!!

>I think he is being beaten as when you go to stroke him he really badly cows from your hand.

Some dogs are suspious and aloof, especially if unsocialised. This does not mean the dog has been beaten, maybe he just doesn't know or trust you to feel comfortable with you touching him.

>The people who have him are druggies anyway so wouldn't surprise me if he had a bit of pit in him.

Wow, what a conclusion to jump to and what a thing to say about someone. LOL Why don't you just go round there and ask after the dog, it's breeding, ask to see it's papers. I'm sure the owners will be happy to show you if they are looking for a new home for it. If you believe the animal is suffering, why not just call the RSPCA about it? All of this would seem a lot more helpful than jumping to conclusions about someone and their dog on a forum.

Blue Staffs are not rare, you only have to look online now and see that 8 out of 10 adverts are for way over priced blues. My thinking is it may be an Irish Staff (for which they could have some paerwork for what it is worth). It could quite simply be a leggier KC staff, as everyone and their granny seems to have jumped on the bandwagon of breeding blues, quantity and money over quality. Pitbull is VERY doubtful. Most of the 'street' dogs are just crossbred mutts, not Pitbulls at all and it's very rare to see a blue one! They are normally the red nosed dogs and it's not hard to produce that kind of type or the red nose by introducing mastiff and even labrador into the mix.

> i call them a street type staff, basickly just not show standard,

Oh Jo   My poor male KC registered Stafford will be most hurt by that comment.  He's slightly 'leggier' than some people's ideal Stafford.


I dont see why he would be hurt by my comment, i never said theres anything wrong with dogs that arent show quality (not saying that yours isnt). I was just pointing out the diffrence in staffs that are bred to meet the breed standard as close as possible (there is no perfect dog) and the ones that are just bred to be as big as possible that dont match the standard. One i know looks very diffrent to the ones in crufts.

> > i call them a street type staff, basickly just not show standard,
>
> Oh Jo   My poor male KC registered Stafford will be most hurt by that comment.  He's slightly 'leggier' than some people's ideal Stafford.
>
>
> I dont see why he would be hurt by my comment, i never said theres anything wrong with dogs that arent show quality (not saying that yours isnt). I was just pointing out the diffrence in staffs that are bred to meet the breed standard as close as possible (there is no perfect dog) and the ones that are just bred to be as big as possible that dont match the standard. One i know looks very diffrent to the ones in crufts.

Jo, my reply was kind of tongue in cheek.  I'm very much aware of the differences within the breed.

I saw a gorgeous blue/white one in our club puppy class a few months back - not a very nice nature (even for a boisterous puppy!) but oh what a lovely colour!

The fawn-ish colour one we had an altercation with today was long-legged to the extent I suspect it of being a pit bull cross tbh.

> They do look different when you get the pictures up to compare and the American Staff is recognised by the AKC where the Pitbull is not.
>

That is not true, APBT are dually registered, as APBT and AmStaff. They stem from the same "source* the AmStaff being the show strain and the APBT being the "working strain".

Otterhound,

Some people say they are 2 different breeds and others say they are the same breed, just different names for them, the latter being what you are saying?

I have tried to find somewhere to support that they are one and the same breed, just different names as such, like our working and show strain Spaniels and Labs. But can't, if you have a link, i would be very grateful for it.

In the States you ask people what their breed is and they say one or the other, not heard anyone out there say they are one and the same breed, but then again i have never actually put that to them, maybe i will just to see what response i get from the AmStaff people at shows..

ETA: I can't see the name Pitbull as an AKC breed, only registered with the UKC(rubbish).
I have nothing but good words about both breeds(types) i have come across in Australia and America. I have found that the Pitty appears to be a lot heavier and broader than an AmStaff.

Then again they aren't banned breeds in Ireland? So you may see a lot more of them over there?

I lived in the States before I moved to Ireland and brought my two APBT with me, both with papers and dually registered as APBT and AmStaffs with AKC and ADBA.. The APBT is my prefered breed for over 25 years and I have done extensive research into both breeds.

>I have found that the Pitty appears to be a lot heavier and broader than an AmStaff.

Are you sure you haven't gotten that the wrong way round? Or are you confusing a real Pit with one of those short fat 100lb + red nosed or blue dogs that seem stupidly popular?

I have tried to find somewhere to support that they are one and the same breed, just different names as such, like our working and show strain Spaniels and Labs. But can't, if you have a link, i would be very grateful for it.


I emailed the the American Kennel Club a while age to ask it they were the same breed and here is the reply it got.

Thank you for contacting the American Kennel Club (AKC(r)).    The breed was originally called the Bull-and-Terrier Dog, Half and Half,and at times Pit Dog or Pit Bull terrier. Later, it assumed the name inEngland of Staffordshire Bull Terrier.  These dogs began to find their way into America as early as 1870, wherethey became known as Pit Dog, Pit Bull Terrier, later American BullTerrier, and still later as Yankee Terrier. In 1936, they were accepted for registration in the American Kennel Clubstud book as Staffordshire Terriers. The name of the breed was revisedeffective January 1, 1972 to American Staffordshire terrier. Breeders inthis country had developed a breed type which is heavier in weight thanthe Staffordshire Bull Terrier of England and the name change was todistinguish the American Staffordshire terrier as a separate breed. The American Staffordshire Terrier is not the Pit Bull Terrier that youare thinking of (American Pit Bull Terrier or APBT). "Pit bull" is ageneric term and is not an AKC breed. This term is used to describe dogsthat are used for dog fighting, which is an illegal activity. AKCstrongly supports all laws against dog fighting and supports dangerousdog legislation. The AKC has developed a prototype for dangerous doglegislation that has been passed in many communities. However, the AKCdoes not believe that any dangerous dog legislation should bebreed-specific. For more information on the American Staffordshire terrier you shouldcontact the breed's National Club.

Jo, my reply was kind of tongue in cheek.  I'm very much aware of the differences within the breed.

Oh ok i must of miss read it, sorry

The prototype of APBT and AST is the Bull and Terrier, brought to the US by Irish and UK immigrants, foremost the Boston Irish.

I actually have a bit of a 'thing' for AmStaffs, I think they're a very majestic looking breed, and of similar temperament to our UK Staffords.  I'm in a country now where the AmStaff is still 'allowed' or should I say 'recognised', so I'll be getting along to a few shows, and meeting up with some friends who have them over her, I can't wait!

Some relatives of a friend travelled all the way from Yorkshire to London to pick up an Old-Time Blue Staffy (or some similar name). Apparrently it is a short legged, squatter version of the breed, and is the "original" Staffie!

They spent a fortune on it, and have to breed it to a stud of the breeder's choice to keep the "breed" pure. When she was telling me this all I could think of was the word IDIOTS for some reason

> Some relatives of a friend travelled all the way from Yorkshire to London to pick up an Old-Time Blue Staffy (or some similar name). Apparrently it is a short legged, squatter version of the breed, and is the "original" Staffie!
>
> They spent a fortune on it, and have to breed it to a stud of the breeder's choice to keep the "breed" pure. When she was telling me this all I could think of was the word IDIOTS for some reason

I think that word is very very apt.