Hiya,

I've got 3 dogs - male aged 6, bitch aged 4 and bitch aged 2. Bitch aged 4 is the boss, always has been. I've had them all since they were pups, I've not brought in another adult. 4 yr old bitch has always lightly bossed around the male but he runs away shaking in his boots. When I brought in the youngest bitch, things went well for a while but now that she is maturing, she's not backing down when 4yr old bitch has a go at her (usually over the kitchen area/food, and also when over excited). What started as little warnings is now getting quite nasty.

They've been having little set-to's every few weeks which were fairly manageable. However, they all had to go into kennels for a week when I went on hols - 6 yr old male and 2 yr old bitch in one kennel, 4 yr old bitch in a separate kennel. 4 yr old bitch got special treatment in the kennels as she decided to be a fussy madam over her food and was therefore fed fresh chicken every day. I think this has possibly brought things to a head. They've been home from kennels now for 2 weeks and we've had 2 nasty arguments since then. Last week, again in the kitchen, it all set off and I got caught in the crossfire trying to separate them, resulted in my having to renew my tetanus booster. This really upset me, obviously. I have children and I can't risk any of them getting caught in the middle of all of this. After a sleepless and tearful night umming and arring over my options, I went out the next morning and bought more safety gates so there is now one on each doorway in the house. I've been keeping 4 & 2 yr olds separate ever since and it was working really well. Not ideal, but the thought of having to rehome was tearing me apart.

This evening one of the kids left a gate open and they had another to-do. It's very obvious to me now that the days of them being best buds are well and truly over and I'm absolutely gutted.

I've been reading these boards for enough years to know the advice that will come - rehoming is no doubt the kindest option, but I feel so bad as it's the 4 yr old that is causing the trouble, but the 2 yr old that has made it come to a head. i.e. if I hadn't bought another bitch into the house, chances are things would be fine. I feel so guilty for even contemplating rehoming 4 yr old. Been in tears again and given up trying to sleep. Poured myself a drink instead.

I was thinking about taking 4 yr old to the vet for an all over check up just to be sure there's  nothing aggrivating her that I should know about. Other than that, anything else I could do? Am clutching at straws :(

Does anyone have any words of wisdom? I'm absolutely distraught.

Thanks,

Jo

I would always re-home the youngest.

A friend found herself in your position, and I know the torture she went through. The old saying "dogs fight for breeding rights, bitches fight for breathing rights" is very true. Although she was advised that rehoming one would be the best option, she felt she could manage the problem until she came home one day and the youngest bitch had killed her old girl. She was absolutely devasted and I don't think to this day she has ever got over it.

I am sorry I have nothing positive to add, but I am sure you will find the strength to do what is best for your girls.

Sadly Jo once female Boxers start fighting they don't stop.
Had three friends with the same situation and they have all ended up rehoming.

One situation was losing the matriach of the pack (6 Boxers) to old age which happened to be a bitch.
This set off very serious in-fighting between the bitches.
The lady concerned got in a behaviourist who observed her pack etc and advised which bitch she thought
was causing the problems. Sadly in this case the behaviourist got it wrong and the lady ultimately ended
up rehoming 3 of her bitches, she was devastated.

As you've found even the best intentions of keeping them apart (especially when you've got kids) can go wrong.
It just takes a momentary lapse in concentration and all hell can break loose.
This is all very stressful for you and your family and the dogs probably pick up on the tension/stress.

I really really do feel for you.
So far I have been lucky with my girls -as you know I had 5 girls (mix of spayed and entire).
Sadly I lost my matriach in June aged 11yo, her daughter who is 8yo has now taken top spot.
However I am well aware that one of the litter sisters who will be 2yo at the end of this week is also quite
a dominant character and it is she that has taken 2nd spot. Her litter sister is now in 3rd and their mum aged 5 1/2 yo is bottom.
I am always very watchful though and have never taken the harmony in the pack for granted - I am very aware it could all change in
a split second. I was concerned as when losing the old girl Misty it may set off fighting but we have survived that period of readjustment
and one of the youngest also having a season. The pack dynamics have remained the same. The current pack is made up of 2 spayed bitches.
One of whom is top and the other bottom with the youngest - the litter sisters being entire.

I think in your heart of hearts/sensible head you probably know what has to happen.
But it doesn't make it any easier.
Hugs
Kirstine

I really feel for you in this situation. I have 2 Peke girls that absolutey hate the sight of each other. They are fine with my other dogs but are permanently gunning for each other. When I let them out in the garden I have to put one of the girls in a pet cage as they even fight through the patio glass. Fortunately they are only small and my house is stair gate city because of this situation. I have 'managed' it now for four years. My advice is to re-home one. It has caused a lot of stress and I am permanently saying 'shut the gate' etc.It doesnt make for a relaxed home and a good situation. I am sure that you will find a top draw home for your girl. It is a difficult decision for you.

The 2 year old wants to be Queen Bea, so the kindest thing to her would be to give her what she wants.  Rehome her somewhere that she can rule the roost - maybe to someone who has another male boxer for company.  Females fighting is worse than males fighting unfortunately.  In nature, the younger members of any group are usually sent off to join another group or start their own.

I'm so sorry JoBoxer but I have to agree with others.

When bitches fight it's personal and almost always an insoluble problem.

Boxers are usually such good family members and thankfully so, for once they fight, they make such a nasty job of it - it is terrible to live with ( for you and the dogs)
It is really quite shocking to see their ancient insticts come to the fore and fighting is what they are good at.

A hard decision is going to have to be made I'm afraid.

So sorry.

I have to say whatever the situation I would not be able to rehome any of my dogs - that is just my personal opinion...it is just something I couldn't do.

We have a household of 7 dogs (2 dogs and 5 bitches).  Owned by different people - as in myself, mum and sister and I am moving out in a couple weeks with just my dogs.

At home the 2 male dogs do not mix together - young Rottie is absolutely fine but the 7 year old GSD doesn't want him around his girls....this is managed fine with closed doors and stairgates.

All the girls get on fine apart from my Akita - she only mixes with the boys.  This again is easily managed and no incidents have occured.

It does depend on your set up but all I am saying it that it is manageable - or it is in my circumstances and I wouldn't rehome any of my dogs just because my Akita can be a mardy so and so!

Jo,

Have you spoken to the breeder for her advice and opinions? She maybe able to assist in some way or have another idea others have yet to come up with.

I have had 2 bitches together and in the end had to make the difficult decision to rehome the youngest one.

I had a dog gate ( they were 2 welsh terriers , but the youngest would have easily jumped a baby gate and i couldn't risk that) They had their moments when they were lovely together - walks , sharing cuddles together , bath time etc but would have the odd tiff now and again. Then one day they had a "set to" through the dog gate - each locking onto the other's mouth. It was so scary , i had my hands on both ( one arm through the gate ) trying to get them apart till they managed to pull the gate off! I had to pin one with it while slamming the door shut.

It was then that i knew that the best and happiest thing for them both was to rehome the youngest one. I think that your two will be happier dogs without the other one being around. Mine went to a lovely home with a couple ( friends with the family ) who doted on her! And my oldest is so much more chilled again now.

It does depend on your set up but all I am saying it that it is manageable - or it is in my circumstances and I wouldn't rehome any of my dogs just because my Akita can be a mardy so and so!

Oh it can work and I have done it -I kept two male dogs apart for 11 years. But it also has to be said it is a lot of stress, and accidents can happen (I once had visiting children, a gate was opened when my back was turned and the two male dogs got together -one nearly died and all it took was seconds. That was ONE incident in 11 years but one is enough) and really, to the DOGS it would be a lot fairer to rehome one. Putting the dogs' welfare before your own feelings. I also find it is much worse with bitches than with dogs, and indeed I rehomed a bitch earlier this year as she kept attacking the other bitches.

One of the male dogs in question died May this year and it has to be said that the stress for everyone has been reduced since then. So although it worked, and for a very long time, it certainly wasn't ideal. Different if you have proper kennels, then it's a different scenario.

On the whole I'd say it's probably best to rehome one sadly, however on reading your post it looked as if there may just be a chance the problem is due to resources rather than anything else, rather than anyone trying to be top. I think perhaps, given that you would find  it really hard to part with one anyway, I'd get in touch with a reputable behaviourist (www.apbc.org.uk is the only organisation I'd suggest, as you do have to be extremely careful who calls themselves a behaviourist) and get them in for their opinion and assessment of the situation. If they deem it impossible to solve the problem then at least you will have done your very best, so  may feel better in the longer run of things, if  you see what I mean. There is a very slight chance the behaviourist may touch on something that can help - also you'd need a good vet check up, because some dog behaviour problems are due to a medical problem that is not apparent (so ideally the dog would have blood tests rather than a quick once-over)

Good luck, please do let us know the outcome. By the way, if you are insured, that may pay for the behaviourist.

Lindsay
x

Thanks for all of your replies, I appreciate you all taking the time. I'm going to take some time to think now. It's such a horrible situation to find myself in, I'm very torn about what to do for the best. It's the old head over heart thing. Will let you know the outcome when I've decided what's what.

Thanks again.

Jo

Lindsay - I'm glad you brought up the vet check - can they just do a general blood test that will show up possible problems, or do they have to test for something specific? This is something I want to do, for my peace of mind more than anything as I really don't suspect anything is wrong. Will phone them now actually.

What do you mean when you say the problem may be due to resources rather than anything else?

Off to look at the apbc website now....

Thanks,

Jo

I think one of the tests would be for thyroid function as a thyroid problem can sometimes cause dogs to become agressive.

I'm sorry you are going through this, it must be hell for you, I don't really have much advice, but hope it all works out for you.

Jo, are either of the bitches neutered? I know that it doesn't always work out but sometimes having the less dominant one neutered can help.

I had 2 bitches that argued and I had to rehome one eventually. The stress was awful to live with, but she went to a loving home. She had 6 years with them and in all fairness, she was far happier with them than with me and her sister.

Rehoming can be very worrying for the owner. No-one wants to admit to being a failure. But that's just it, you're not a failure. It's just normal bitch behaviour. 2 very dominant bitches will fight over who is going to be at the top. Unfortunately it could be to the death.

jo sorry about your problems, ive had the same with  my two female terriers. i spent nearly two years trying to hold my life together while keeping them apart. it was a bitch thing as i have a male terrier. my oldest bitch (only 3) lived with my younger bitch ( age2)for a year and half then one day a mayor attack from my oldest bitch, it just got worse every time. she jumped through the kitchen window and attacked my young bitch and any chance she got she would go for her. it got so bad that i was leting one out of the kitchen door, bringing them in then letting the other out the side door, thought i had sussed it until one day i got up, went into the kitchen let my male and oldest bitch out and heard a terrible noise when i looked out she was attacking my young bitch. yes i had forgotten to bring my young one in and she had been out all night, ifelt soooo awful and to top it she had deep bite marks on her neck and back. you also have to think about your kids, if they get caught up between a fight they could really get hurt. after the first mayor attack my oldest bitch went on to become very dog aggresive to any dog that came into her space. the only one she bothered with was my male terrier but she started bullying him aswel. dont think ive ever cried so much as i did during those 2 years. my oldest bitch went to live with a man around the corner who has no other animals he spoils her rotten and walks her away from other dog as she hasnt improve, but she is really happy and this man loves her to bits.

So sorry and full of sympathy for your situation.  I had a 9 yr old x collie  and a 12 year GSD x collie [could be called the dominant one - not aggressive at all tho] both neutered bitches.  When my older bithc had to be PTS I got a Cocker then a couple of months later an Elkhound - both bitches.  I didn't want any dog to be on it's own canine wise.  BIG  mistake.  The Cocker caused so many fights and traumas- mental, physical and emotional I ended up re-homing her.  She's gone to an extended family as an only dog and, as of last update, is living the life of Riley.  My other two are getting along fine and we are enjoying our dogs.  We do still miss her but realised that in our situation it was the fairest for all concerned.  I also spent hours researching, soul-searching, trying for weeks and months different methods .. .  For us it was the right thing to do.  Try out any options but don't let it spoil all your lives - people as well as dogs.

I have to say whatever the situation I would not be able to rehome any of my dogs - that is just my personal opinion...it is just something I couldn't do.
I always try to put what's best for my dogs before my own feelings and opinions.  Sometimes it's very difficult ...... :(

> I always try to put what's best for my dogs before my own feelings and opinions.  Sometimes it's very difficult

Such a good point Westcoast.

I've written before about friends who keep too many large powerful dogs, often using extrodinary methods to keep the peace, where the dogs have a much lesser life than they are entiltled to.
Keeping them at all costs, regardless of the stress the dogs themselves are going through daily ( and that can be immeasurable ) just because it suits us -  is not always the right action.
It's not about how we look  and feel as owners - rather the fullest, happiest, most settled life the dog can possibly have and that may be with someone else.

I'm not sure if that was meant as a reply to me but I would welcome anyone round to my house to see that there is no stress between my dogs.  My Akita can go out in the garden and walk through and past the other dogs but I only let her mix freely with the boys because I know she can react very quickly to certain situations when the other girls are involved.  She goes on walks with the girls etc but just not off lead running loose with them - I would call it sensible management.

As I added before in my circumstances everything works fine - our dogs are not aggressive towards each other when the see each other, no growls, barks etc.  They use body language i.e. turn away from each other etc so they are not confrontational in the slightest.

Other people may have dogs that are outwardly aggressive towards each other and this is a different situation, I however was just giving an insight to what is possible with training and good management skills.

Again just in response I have to add that if my girl (the Akita) was to walk into a room with the other girls a fight would not necessarily ensue - they do not have aggression problems with each other - it is to be honest more a case of if the Akita wakes up in a grumpy mood (and trust me i've never seen a dog change their mood so often!) that the others take one look at her and walk away.  As said in my previous post they can mix but I am the one in charge of them so the Akita mixes with the boys freely for playtime and not the other girls.

> there is no stress between my dogs

But there most certainly is between JoBoxers and that is who we are are advising.

> Other people may have dogs that are outwardly aggressive towards each other and this is a different situation

Yes JoBoxers dogs certainly seem to be in that situation.

Just got back from the vets. She checked Tia (4 yr old) over but everything was normal, I asked about blood tests but she thought it would be a waste of my money as there was nothing to indicate anything is wrong. What she did recommend I try is a DAP diffuser and a DAP collar for Tia. She said they don't work for everyone, but got to be worth a try. Also she recommended some herbal tablets/drops which I spose is the canine version of rescue remedy, but one step at a time. If all of that has no effect, then a behavourist.

Soooo, the DAP diffuser is plugged in, the collar is on order, and for the time being, the 2 girls will  be entirely separate from each other.

Have spoken to Tia's breeder and she has given me tips on managing this, also have spoken to trusted boxer friends who have done the same. One step at a time, will try all my options but of course realise the end result of rehoming may be inevitable. I have to try though.

Thanks for all the advice, much appreciated.

One step at a time, will try all my options but of course realise the end result of rehoming may be inevitable. I have to try though.
Exactly right. :) 

Hi, I'm no expert on blood tests but a reputable behaviourist will always get a thorough vet check done and this usually means blood tests.
As has been suggested it can show up something like hypothyroid and also other problems which can't be seen just by looking. Very often the results are clear but sometimes a vet check will show up something.

James O Heare in his Canine Aggression Workbook says:

"the frst step in diagnosing an aggression problem is to rule out common medical conditions that may be causing or contributing to the behaviour.
Until medical causes have been ruled out you cannot make a behavioural diagnosis. A brief physical exam is not enough. Unfortunately many
vets are not familiar with finding medical sources for aggressive behaviour... the dog will require blood work and possibly other diagnostics"
page 119.

These in particular warrant closer medical work:

"if the onset of aggression is sudden...if it seems explosive or excessively inappropriate to the trigger...if it has no apparent trigger...or is related to general grumpiness or reclusiveness...if the dog is acting in such a way as the owner might characterise it "bizarre" ... if it correlates to the taking of medication...injury or illness..."
also pain can lower tolerance thresholds eg ear infections, stomach pains, allergies, hip dysplasia, and even the memory of pain in some dogs can cause problems....

Hope that helps :)

Ten to one there is no medical problem but if you saw a behaviourist they'd almost certainly prefer blood tests at least to rule out anything like that.
DAP is good but tends to take the edge off anxiety, I'd not rely on it without some sort of behavioural work  :) .

Re the resources, I meant that rather than there being any concern about "hierarchy" there is also the possibility that it  be more related to closeness to you, food, toys, areas of excitement eg the car, etc....this can usually be worked with :)

Lindsay
x

> I spose is the canine version of rescue remedy,

RR is not just for people, it will help you stay less up-tight about the situation but you can also dose the dogs.

best of luck with the situation, been there done that with 2 males, my previous GSD and daughters xbreed (staff x pharoah) HATED each other, started when GSD age 6 and xbreed got to maturity about 18 months, growls then snaps and escalated, got to the stage when sight of the other was enough of a trigger to start full scale war. on the few occasions they did get too close both ended up with bites - some worse than others and usually my GSD came off worse but for the last 3 years of GSDs life they never saw each other despite living in the same house. easier to say than do even tho only 3 adults in the house and xbreed out with daughter for lot of the day.
Chris

I would contact a behaviourist and also look into something called Zyklene which a lot of vets are recommending, though i would speak to them first about it, cost around £100 for tablets for a dog the size of a Boxer.
Also think about homeopathic remedies as well.

As you have said one step at a time, and see what works, sometimes i have been told its a combination of things.
Does anyone know if the older bitch was spayed would this make any difference at all?

The vet did mention Zyklene  - she said  she hadn't had any feedback from clients as it's so new so could only recommend based on what she herself knows. That's one step in a line of steps we may possibly take. If I remember rightly, she said this was carbohydrate based.

The 4 yr old was speyed a couple of years ago. The 2 year old hasn't been speyed, so I suppose she's in theory higher up in hierarchy than 4 yr old, even though 4 yr old doesn't want her to be. I'm not sure what effect speying the 2 yr old would have... it may be too late to make a real difference, not sure.

My vet suggested we let the DAP diffuser do it's stuff for a few days, ditto with the collar when it comes in, and then get another *calm* adult in to supervise some interaction between the 2 girls. Dreading it, but as my vet quite rightly said, the longer they are separated, the harder it is to come back from, if indeed it's possible at all.

I have seen first hand some great results with Zylkene. At first I was a little scepticle about the product, but after seeing the results it is definitely something that I would recommend.

The first dog was a young border collie that had serious seperation anxiety. The second dog was a basset who was becoming increasingly tetchy with other dogs in the home. The third dog was a crossbreed who suffered from fear aggression towards people.  All three cases were put on Zylkene whilst a behavioural modification programme was put in place and the results after a couple of months were amazing. In all three cases the owners had been working on the issues for some time prior to the use of Zylkene with no improvement to the behaviours.

When I was told about the product it was explained to me that it is meant to create a general feeling of contentment/ease and is primarily for animals suffering from stress/anxiety. I guess that as a lot perceived aggression problems are caused by stress, thus the product can help in these cases also.

Obviously it doesn't work in all cases, but as it is a natural product I would think it may be worth thinking about. However IMHO it is probably not wise to try too many new things at once, as this could cause further stress and/or you wouldn't really be sure what was working.

Sue is correct that it is not a cheap, but if you were to buy it online off someone such as petmeds it would cost approx £7 a week after the initial loading dose (approx double for two weeks).

With regard to spaying, many years ago I was told that if a bitch already displaying aggression was spayed, it often made the problem worse. Perhaps someone with more knowledge will be able to expand on this.

Good luck and I really hope you find something that works.

Jenny

> RR is not just for people, it will help you stay less up-tight about the situation but you can also dose the dogs.

I have used it on my horse occasionally too ;)

Re the Zylkene - that's good to know, thanks for that. I'll chat more to my vet regarding that next time I go in. Thanks :)

> When I was told about the product it was explained to me that it is meant to create a general feeling of contentment/ease and is primarily for animals suffering from stress/anxiety

Prozac for dogs!! :-D :-D

I have used the cat version of the dap diffuser (feliway) and it certainly made a difference to my cat, an overanxious, semi feral moggie. He is much calmer when the diffuser is plugged in. I hope the DAP works for your dogs, its terrible for us when we have to rehome a dog, even if the dogs are often 100% happier. I had to rehome my Rough Collie when my daughter got injured when she accidently got caught in the middle of a fight, sometimes it really is the best solution.

I'm a bit concerned the vet isn't treating this with the seriousness it deserves.
Did she not suggest a reputable behaviourist?

Vets aren't behaviourists, unless of course she is one of the few veterinary behaviourists in the UK, in which case she would know what she is talking about.

If the problem with the bitches is escalating I'd be surprised if DAP worked as it only takes the edge off anxiety. It won't tackle the root cause in the long term.
Sorry to sound negative - I hope I'm wrong in this case :)

Good luck, hope the situation gets sorted soonest.

Lindsay
x

Hi Lindsay, Yes, she did suggest a behaviourist, told me to have a think about it. She recommended one that is employed by the vets practice, but I've looked and she's not on the APBC list. I was thinking of bypassing the one employed by the vet and instead going directly to the nearest one on APBC list.

But yes, a behaviourist is on my list of steps :) I think I'll get the kids back to school before I start delving into that though.

Thanks for your help :)

Jo

Re behaviourist. My experience of this was that I used a behaviourist who was not on the list and my Insurance refused to pay out for the sessions because of this. Can end up being very costly as nothing is cured overnight. I had told this person on the phone that I would be claiming from my Insurance and she said no problem she had worked with Insurance cases before. We took her at her word travelled to the other end of the country stayed in a hotel for the weekend as we had 2 sessions, followed by another 2 sessions with her rehabilitation group. These sessions were also a long way from home and on one occassion the session was cancelled but she had not informed us and we had hung around for a couple of hours before someone from the venue told us that it was off. All this cost a furtune and in the end did not work, the dog was no better, so please use someone from the list.

Hi,

Can I also just add a word of cation with regards to the DAP aswell, I think it's great in a lot of situations and it may help either one feel a little more settled in this situation, however it can cause disinhibition and in a few cases this can cause things to be worse rather than better so it should be used carefully where aggression is already present, hopefully that won't be the case here (it's not the norm but isn't uncomon) it's just worth being aware of if you have started the DAP. 

Even if you go to a behaviourist who is registered with an organisation (I'm sure you would any way) but do vet them very carefully and if your gut instinct says something is wrong then go with it - I've had a couple of people lately coming to me after being seen by people from organisatons they felt sure would mean they got people that would help them to be diss heartened when the bullying Ceaser Milan type methods made their dogs worse rather than better.

Hope things improve soon :-)

Hi Lindsay, Yes, she did suggest a behaviourist

That's great, I was concerned she hadn't given you that option :)

I do know some vets actually occasionally link up with "bad" behaviourists - although I do know of a few good ones who are not
members of behavioural organisations, but they are few and far between. Generally I'd say go for APBC :)

Lindsay
x

Oh my heart goes out to you. I had 2 boys who couldn't look at each other and spent 8 years living with safety gates and crates. I thought I was doing the best thing but, looking back, I was keeping them together for my needs and not for theirs.

That said, you must feel that you have tried everything at your disposal to make the situation work. Safety gates are okay to a degree. However, we never had children - I could imagine the constant nagging to shut the gate and how would a child feel if they forgot and a dog fight broke out.

I do hope it works out for you but, if it comes down to rehoming, know that you did everything you could and your decision was an unselfish one (unlike mine)
xxx

Have only scanned the excellent replies and you have much to help.  Do you think you and your family are in control enough?  Is it worth looking at a NILIF type programme? http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm

How you getting on Jo with your girls? I'm hoping that you find a way that you can keep the pair of them.. good luck x

Hi Sue,

A behaviourist came out on Monday and we're going back to basic training with all 3 of them. Tia needs to realise I'm mum, not her :) So, lots of training every day, they're not together yet but they had a spell together on leads when the behaviourist was here so she could see how they interact. It seems the 2 yr old isn't as innocent as I had thought, it's just she's more subtle about it! LOL  Behaviourist coming back each month for the next 4 months.

It feels great to be doing something positive, it'll just obviously take a fair bit of time to see what the outcome will be.

Thank you for asking :)

Jo

> It seems the 2 yr old isn't as innocent as I had thought,

That is often the case.  The one people think is causing an issue is often the one simply defending it's position.

People then try and reduce that ones rank, making things worse as the usurper feels even more able to try their luck in upping their status with the owners approval.

It is important to have someone from outside see the dynamics.

Hi JoBoxer,

We have 4 boxers: Lou, our oldie spayed bitch aged 9, her daughter Noe spayed aged 5, Noe's son Digger aged 18 months and Maggie who we bought as a puppy who is not speyed and is aged almost 3.

Lou is the clear "elder" no doubt about it. Noe was next in line, then Maggie, then Digger who was propper henpecked!!

Around six months ago Maggie started challenging Noe for the pecking order and were having many spats together. Which actually never came to drawing blood but were very noisy and scary and it got me worrying alot.

We were watching the Dog Whisperer at the time but I can honestly say that his method did not work or help the situation.

I decided that we would use our own method which boiled down to getting very strict will all of them. If we told them "away" we meant away at that moment, not giving a second command. We expected all of them to do what we said when we said and gradually things got easier. We also took Maggie & Noe out for lots of walks together without the others to side with. We also didn't stick up for Noe but them them gradually sort out their own places out.

Spats were still happening in exitable situations but eventually they have stopped. Noe, who was above Maggie was gradually giving in to Maggie as we watched Maggie take top position. Maggie has become the natural "leader" with Lou still the "elder". If Noe does step out of line then a quick grumble by Maggie will see Noe heading off with head and tail down, clearly being submissive. The thing I like is that Maggie will then go and lick Noe's face to bring her out of her told off sulk.

On walks when we take all 4 out now, you can see that Maggie takes the natural lead with the others following, Lou at the back as normal.

I hope with the training you are trying turns out good like it did for me.
Best wishes with it all,
Aimi x