I have a male GSP who is just over a year old. I bought him partly with the intention of using him at stud with my 2 bitches (mother and daughter). His pedigree is suitably compatible with theirs. My older bitch is due in season in about a month and I was considering using him with her then. I would like some opinions on whether he is old enough (he will be about 14 months old). I have had varying advice ranging from using a dog as young as possible, such as 9 months (I was horrified at this) to waiting until he is at least 3 years old, which I thought was a bit too old for a first mating. I am a very responsible breeder and am in contact with all the owners of puppies I have bred.

Welcome to the forum Nicky :-)

You do not say whether your dog has had all the necessary health checks yet: Hips/Eyes?
Personally, I would not allow any dog of mine to be used at stud until these checks had been carried out and satisfactory results had come back. I do know of at least one GSP that was used at stud at 7 months old, but I hope this is not the norm now. :-) By leaving your GSP until he is 3 years old before you use him at stud, you will have a better idea of his qualities and hopefully, any temperament/health issues eg: epilepsy, will have presented by then . Out of interest, what lines are your GSP's :-)

[added] It's ok I just looked at your breeders page :-) [/added]

It sounds as if you know the lines from which you are wishing to breed so providing you have done the health tests needed I would have thought that 14 months was fine. IMO I think the older they are at the first mating, the more likley you are to find you have a reluctant or confused stud on your hands.
Ja:)kie

My breeders page doesn't give much detail on their lines. My older bitch (Shellys Spring Joy of Whistlecraft) is mainly from Inchmarlo lines and also has Swedish imput from Uddens Igor (who also sired Heathermark Insignia) and her daughter (Whistlecraft Willow the Wisp) has a lot of Wildbach in her from her Sire, including Buck Hollows Tabor of Wildbach who Angela Boyd brought over from the US. Her Grandfather on her Sires side was Gelerts Rainbow Warrior. My young male (Mossland Dompfaff of Whistlecraft) has mainly Isara Khurzaar in him with some Waldburg and Keldy (Keldy White Knight) and also a small dash (sounds like a recipe lol) of Inchmarlo.
Nicky

Hi Nicky, yes I am familiar with GSP lines. Both your bitches are very typical of their breeding :-)

So I've been told, especially the older bitch. When I've taken her NFC to shows with us, people will look at her and say that she is an Inchmarlo without even knowing her pedigree. Her litter brother is the same.
Nicky

You go for it 14 months is fine to me, my rotty stud was 13 months when he had his first time, and the bitch had 12 pups. Bud now studs with my other rotty cleo, 12 pups the first time and the second time is goin to be this week as cleo is on her 9th day today.

As long as the hip score has come back, usually a couple of weeks. so if he is xrayed at 12 months you should have them back in time, and an experienced orthopaedic vet should at least be able to tell if the plates look reasonable. Not the average vet though. I have heard of several cases where a person was told the hip xray looked bad, and a good score came back, and also vice versa.

Ref: Hips. Have a word with Jerry Kew or Rob Gould.
If they can't do it, they will recommend someone who can :-)

Thanks for the advice everyone, I just wanted to check I was doing the right thing. I was going to wait until her season next summer but my brother has inconsiderately decided to get married in September which would have meant it would be difficult to have pups or a heavily expectant bitch around that time. As she is already 5 I don't want to leave it any longer for her. GSP don't need to be hip scored or eye tested but I do generally have them done before breeding anyway. However he injured his leg as a 6 month old and had to endure numerous x-rays and aneasthetics at that time so I don't want to have himm pulled about unnecessarilary now. If he ever has to have an op for anything I will have him hip scored at the same time, otherwise I will leave him alone. I will have him eye tested as that carries no risks. Both my bitches have good hip scores and clear eye certs.

>>GSP don't need to be hip scored or eye tested

:rolleyes: Really? And who told you that little gem? ;-)

Looking at an old Hip score data sheet it shows GSPs having a mean score of 10, which is good, but they have had a range of 0 to 57. A score of 57 would certainly cause a dog problems, so you are wrong, and there is nothing to be complacent about re hips.

My own breed has had a range of 0 to 61 (only 1 dog ever having scored anywhere near the top figure), and our breed clubs consider, and admonish in their Code of Ethics, that all breeding stock MUST be hip scored and Eye tested.

Then the mean average for the GSP has gone up Brainless, it used to be 9.
Obviously more GSP's are being scored now and that pushes the mean average up in most cases, but 10 is hardly a good enough reason to announce that the GSP does not *need* to be hip scored. Only when everyone scores their breeding stock, will we get a true picture of the breeds hips. In the mean time, we shouldn't be lulled into a false sense of security.

I realise the need to have dogs hip scored but as my bitches have good scores and his parents had good scores I feel that I would rather not put him through the process in light of the fact that he was pulled about as a youngster. I would also have any of his offspring that I will keep both hip scored and eye tested. I will also have him done if at any time he needs an anaesthetic for another reason. As for the eye tests, when having my bitches done the vet stated that there was no problem with GSP's eyes in general. This would tend to suggest that having the dogs eyes tested is a precaution rather than a necessity. I am in favour of these tests, which is why I generally have them done.

Exactly so, with the range of scores there is no room for complacency, and frankly I think all breeds should be scored, as there are some horendous scores recorded even in breeds considered not to have a problem, like shelties and Cavaliers.

How can anyone say there isn't a problem if it hasn't been checked for. I feel the same in respect of eyes, even if the breed in question has nothing on Schedule 1 (proven genetci problems) eyes should still be checked to ascertain if there are emerging problems!

I have to add, although I'm no hip fanatic, dogs born from low scoring parents can have high hip scores themselves, there is no guarantee with hips-full stop. I know of one breed where a sire has a score of 2 but he has produced stock scoring 50-60+ so no room for complacency.

And Joe Public is getting far more clued up on hip scoring etc. so you will probably be asked by at least one potential puppy owner about hips etc. I think I'm right in saying that GSP's don't suffer from hereditary eye diseases but I'm sure Leigh will add her advice as she is an experienced GSP owner and has many years connected to the breed :)

There are a lot of vets that will sedate your dog instead of anaesthetise to have a hip score done, it's just a case of shopping around for the best vet for the job. After all, it's your money that is paying for the X-rays so you go where you are happy. A bitch I bred was hip scored by a vet in Evesham and was only sedated, her score was 7. And she suffered no side effects, except to be drowsy.

Thanks everyone. I had already decided to try and find a vet that will do the x-rays under sedation rather than an anaesthetic. I'm going to ring round all the local vets today and if there are none locally I am prepared to travel a small distance so if anyone knows of any please let me know. I live in Lowestoft, which is North East Suffolk.

Have you spoken to Rob & Theo Gould? They are in Suffolk :-)

I've heard of them I think! But I don't know them.

They are Hon.Vets to the GSP Club, along with Jerry Kew :-)
If you have the 50th Anniversary Year Book, their details are listed.
If not, I will post them for you.

I do have the year book somewhere but unfortunately that is one of the few things that Neo chewed as a puppy (annoying but I suppose I got away lightly) so I don't know how much of their details will be in tact. I would be really grateful if you could give me their details as the vets I've phoned in my area all seem reluctant to just sedate him. If you don't really want to post them on here my email address is: nicky@whistlecraftgsp.co.uk. Also do you know where abouts in Suffolk they are?
Thank you
Nicky

They are based at Mildenhall, Bury St.Edmunds. I will email you their exact details. Be guided by them, as they know their stuff and have GSP and GLP :-)

Thanks for all your help. I will give them a ring later.
Nicky

The British Veterinary hospital at Cambridge doesn't put the dog right out before hip-scoring - sorry I can't tell you the tel. no - but if you are in Suffolk, you are half-way there!