From the Good the Bad and the Ugly!

Which Dog Trainer / Behaviorist would you like to nominate as a giver of good sound advice and whose practice/methods you most admire and have benefited from?

I've placed an 'Other' option on the poll if there is someone not mentioned you would like to vote for? If you do vote on 'Other' would you post who it was, and feel free to nominate your local trainer..... it may prove interesting in the cut if it proves we are listening more to our local experts than 'TV' experts?

You can nominate more than one person (but only vote once for each person!)

Get voting :)

Where's the poll? NOBODY on earth can beat Paddy Driscoll as far as I am concerned. :)

Takes time for the Poll M (you have to add it after posting cant before... for some strange reason)

> Paddy Driscoll

what an omission on my part!! (sorry!)

oooh... interesting!

Have to go with my local trainer - Angela Lowrie, she's been really helpful.  She seems to take a no nonsense approach with owners, but is really kind and gentle with the dogs.  And often throws in a bit of Greek dancing mid-KCGS training! It works for me :-D

The only one on the list I know of is CM, and I wont vote for him (although in the past I would have - bows head in shame).  I really like a trainer that is out of Niagara Falls, Canada.  I know, quite a trek for you guys LOL, but its worth mentioning (as google can bring up a lot of things).  His name is Dave McMahon.  He trains not only obedience, but tracking, protection, narcotics detection, and has won many awards for his work.  His dogs work amazing (Belgian Mallinois - probably spelt the breed name wrong- opps if I did), and he has a no nonscense approach, using many methods of training. 

Steve Mann

Ian Dunbar does it for me.

dont like any of them.

and jan fennell she is horrid, my aunt has degrees in dog behaviour and other stuff, and she says they were told on teh first day that she is a load of rubbish all that 'listner' stuff.
she goes and looks at wolves, you'd need to talk to my aunt but she says it has no corrilation with our dogs, they behave so differently.

Paddy Driscoll gets my vote too..

I am in the process of trying to arrange a training day with Paddy in my area.. for around 20/25 people to attend..

Victoria stillwell for me..

Oh interesting I have never heard that name.  Paddy Driscoll that is.  I vote for Victoria simply because she is on TV and I think a good role model for others.  When you get down to nitty gritty then it is a different matter.   If I hear how good Ceaser Milan is again I will scream.  I have been told that if I don't pin my dog down then I will never control her.  It is not as simple as that; I watched someone handling my Meg when she was so excited at agility.  He calmly told her to lie down and when she argued with him ie. snapped at him he ignored her calmly and firmly told her to lie down holding her on a short lead near the floor.  She showed her teeth one last time as her last word then obeyed his every move for the rest of the evening.  That is not quite what one thinks of as pin down but maybe it was what the person meant who said it to me.  Hence I may have got the wrong impression - Ceasar hasnt done me any favours that way if that is the case. 

Steve Mann here as well!

I won't vote for any of them as a whole, i think some are good in certain areas and they cross over. My favourite has to be someone who is open to adapting and changing methods for each case they come across. One way of training doesn't always fit each dog. I listen to what many people say if i have a problem and then i work out which is going to be the best way to tackle any problems i have.

I have to admit that i find Mick Martin great with the owners, there is no messing about there and he says it how it is. Some of his methods just wouldn't work for all dogs though - due to his no nonsense approach with owners i kind of have to admit i have a tiny crush on the man(blushes).

>due to his no nonsense approach with owners i kind of have to admit i have a tiny crush on the man(blushes).

> he says it how it is

Shame he can't get his point across without swearing profusely .

I have to admit that i find Mick Martin great with the owners,

I'd disagree with that - he's rude to people and often makes them feel small and stupid to the point where several pople have asked to swap trainers.  People don't learn best when they are being made to feel stupid or being shouted at and that doesn't benefit the dogs. 

I can't really pick one, I like lots of trainers, Susan Clothier is amazing, Karen Pryor, Turid Rugaas, Susan Garret, Nicole Wilde, Jane Killion, Roger Abrantes and Pamela Dennison are all trainers that I admire as well several more and lots that aren't well know about.

i think we have 2 'others' - paddy driscoll and steve mann, i think? - whom arent on the list, yet actually have more votes than at least 5 trainers whom are named and listed.

> I'd disagree with that - he's rude to people and often makes them feel small and stupid

Some people yes he does and he can go overboard, but at the same time there are far too many people who don't listen to him, ignore his advice and then that is where he gets annoyed and probably in some people's eyes becomes to overbearing with his swearing.
There are some trainers who i think are very weak and don't enforce what the owners should be doing or drive home the consequences of not doing what they should be.

There is a local behaviourist to me who i think is great, we sing from the same song sheet and i have got myself into a pickle before and not known how to get out if it, he supplies the get out for me and then we are back up and running again. He does obedience now, shows and breeds and does ringcraft when he has time.

Hi HuskyGal,
My vote goes to 2 people as I cant decide between.
Paddy Driscoll ,I went on a days course to get the best out of my dog in the show ring and her advice was very good, helped lotsand made lots of sense.
My second vote goes to John Rogerson.I did an instructor training course with him at Dogs Trust using their dogs to get them through their bronze Good Citizsen award(looks better with the general public when they are up for re homing if they have some training apparently)I was amazed at how quickly and easily he had even the most difficult of dogs under control and he was very gentle but firm and very calm voiced as he was doing it.

Victoria Stilwell seems to give good sound advice though of course with the short programme you get on IMOTD you can't be sure how thorough the 'cure' is, and I like Gwen Bailey's book(s?) too.

Ive gone for Victoria Stilwell because she is the most accessible of the trainers I would pick, for the people who need it the most. The others, (Suzanne Clothier, Jean Donaldson, Karen Pryor, Ian Dunbar etc etc... ) sadly one tends not to 'discover' until one is already seeking an alternative to the outdated dominancey 'Cesar' style of training.

I actually watched a whole Dog whisperer last night - and the one thing that came through was that we must have 'energy' - he kept saying it and it has been said to me when seeking help from someone confident in training dogs - that I lack energy!  That at the end of an evening when my confidence was pretty low in fact.   From the programme last night it seemed that if I had the energy and said 'shhhhhwwwzzz' to my dog when I wanted her to obey me - then I would have it cracked.   I think some people do have a way about them that dogs respect and some of us have to learn it.  Not sure I will ever have it.  Some dogs are easier to train too.  Television is false and I have heard the opinion that Victoria couldn't train a difficult dog but CM could.  There seems an awful lot of people favour CM out there in the dog world. 

> There seems an awful lot of people favour CM out there in the dog world.

Er not in the dog world but the general public & pet owners seem to think he is some sort of hero !

I had the conversation at one of my agility classes and found I was outnumbered - I was the only one who didn't like CM's methods and because my dog was the only one playing up ...................... :-0!

why is Bruce Fogle on the list?

he is fundamentally a vet

I have a few of BF's books and some are on behaviour and training techniques.

> I had the conversation at one of my agility classes and found I was outnumbered - I was the only one who didn't like CM's methods and because my dog was the only one playing up ...................... :-0!

So everyone at the class uses CMs methods ?? even the trainers ?? So how on earth do they teach their dogs agility, after all CM doesn't do "obedience" ?

jsust voted other, the late John Fisher and also Roy Hunter

Oh very hard!!
I'd vote for Paddy (who was my tutor for a while) and Steve Mann certainly.
Plus Pamela Dennison, who really practically applies learning theory to dog training.
And I've voted on here for Dr Ian Dunbar because he brought puppy classes to the UK and
changed the face of dog training using lure and reward.
I'd have to vote for John Fisher - god bless him, I'd have loved to have met him. He did a
U turn on his pack theory :)
I'd want to vote for Jean Donaldson as well plus Victoria S as she's on tv ...

Oh dear!!! tooo many!! :)

Lindsay
x

> why is Bruce Fogle on the list?

*sigh*
I'll explain myself then shall I....

(Grumbles...reaches for the Marlboros, they're gonna be needed...sighs some more... wonders why whenever you just try do something light hearted or fun or just interesting..or even just because, It gets nitpicked to the point of ad nauseum? or ends up in a whinge fest or bun fight!... then finally gets down to it! :-D)

As Sue has pointed out BF has published training material and commented in the media on behavioral methods (and often gets dragged out by the media as a 'name' for his commentary.)

Sooo.... when choosing who to name specifically in this poll, I tried to have a spread that would prove 'in the cut' to be potentially quite interesting, maybe quite enlightening... possibly even worrying! ;)

~Those that pull in the votes.... are they there by virtue of Merit or Media 'air time'?
~Would the votes show the demograph of Champdogs to be not as some would expect... or exactly as some (or one) would expect?
~ If I named all the trainers I could think of I would have been typing for ever and a day (sorry I don't have the time or nearly enough chocolate and Marlboros to see me through that Marathon ;) I thought the 'other' option would suffice? we can all 'do the math' ;))

Essentially it was just a 'this might be interesting' and the poll was really just to avoid the CD Bun Fight......
(Like that was going to happen!?? what was I thinking!! )

It is interesting!  and educational because I hadn't heard of some of the names.   Perhaps a spin off survey to find out how many are influenced by tv programmes and how many have ventured further.

Mick Martin for me all the way. Followed by Victoria.
Cant believe 'the dog whisperer' did so well in the vote!!!!!

> Cant believe 'the dog whisperer' did so well in the vote!!!!!

No,neither can I-not on this forum.

blimey, i only asked.

whose being too serious again????

> Cant believe 'the dog whisperer' did so well in the vote!!!!!

It is always sad to see people liking him but I bet if the poll had been for the trainer you least respect/like then he would come out the winner by a mile so I take comfort in that :-D

ok,can someone tell me why nobody likes the dog whisperer?seems to me,hes helped a lot of dogs and people,or am i missing something?

> seems to me,hes helped a lot of dogs and people,or am i missing something?

The method he uses is from the dark ages of dog training in the 1940s onwards. He wrongly believes that humans can be part of a dog"pack"& that they should be the Alpha pack leader. This theory has been shown to be wrong so many times over & his belief that dogs & humans live in wolf pack live relationships is bunkum.

Dogs are aware humans are not dogs, they are providers of food & shelter &(should be)good to be around. Wolf packs are not made up of random animals living together in the wild(although those in captivity are)they consist of the breeding pair(the parents)& their offspring. There are no fights for breeding rights, when the off spring reach maturity they leave the pack to set up their own with a mate of the opposite sex fairly unrelated. Dog packs are rarely formed this way, they are usually unrelated/partially related groups chosen by their owners to live together.

He uses force & forced submission by using pinch/electric/illusion/collars or chokers. He believes all dogs need to be made to run/walk for hours ever day(regardless of age, breed or health, he force runs dogs on tread mills. If you watch his programs & turn the sound off & watch the dogs behaviour & expression, you will see a point in every program when the dog simply shuts down into forced submission.

This is just not necessary & good dog trainers/behaviourizts have been using positive reinforcement for many many years.

Dogs/wolves do not "Alpha Roll"each other, the lower ranked dog rolls on it back to show submission & the higher ranked dog will stand over it sometimes holding it now by the neck for a few seconds

He's a celebrity using old fashioned methods including half strangling some dogs (dogs he sets up to attack him, as no goood behaviourist would ever do) and making a lot of money along the way.
He's put dog training and behaviour work back over 30 years IMO.
As a trainer I find he affects my clients as I have to explain to them that tv is not always "how it is" and that his shows are edited etc.

See here:

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm
http://www.4pawsu.com/dominancestatement.pdf US vet society statement
http://www.canis.no/rugaas/gallery.php
http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm frequently asked questions
http://www.stevedalepetworld.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=204&Itemid=71
http://www.esquire.com/features/ESQ1006-ESQ100_20-21.FINAL.rev_1

Etc

:)

.

Sorry HG but you have started something here - and perhaps it does need the research and commenting on.  I went into a large pet supermarket this afternoon to replace the lead that my dear hubby dropped on the beach last sunday am. (nothing suitable there) I browsed the books - guess what all the training books were CM!  Weeelll not quite all - but the majority of them where - the impression was overwhelmingly CM.  What is the general public supposed to do!

Society now is celebrity obsessed.  With clever editing, even the poorest trainer can be made to look good on tv.  As long as you have the right contacts, someone acting as your PR person and a bag load of confidence, you too could become the next 'Mutt Mutterer' etc. :o)

Needless to say I am not impressed one iota by CM or by JF and did my learning from real people in real life as well as from books written by people who didn't have to seek tv fame to be rated as good.

I don't particular have any one particular 'guru' that I like best.  I always preferred to take a bit of this from one person, a bit of that from the other etc and come up with my own way for the dog concerned.  I tend to view all dogs as individuals and not all suit the same method.

> Sorry HG but you have started something here - and perhaps it does need the research and commenting on

There are plenty of threads on the Forum that have discussed Cesar Milan (and others)

All the user has to do is scroll down to the bottom of any Champdogs page and under the CHAMPDOGS.CO.UK logo is a white 'site search' box which will reveal all the Champdogs threads that have discussed the topic/person that the user enters :)

These threads invariably end up locked, something I do not wish this poll to have happen til' all have had a chance to vote.

Those wishing to discuss individual trainers are most welcome to spawn their own thread to do just that. ;)

edited to add: I have 'bumped' the most recent Cesar Milan thread perhaps those interested in the debate spawned by his methods can look here for views for and against and comment.
   

I've voted for 'other' and then 'other' again, because I don't know all of the trainers/behaviourists in the list and I like anybody that preaches common sense, patience & reward based training :) (so that's Mick Martin & CM NOT on my list!).

I wathced a film 'Hotel For Dogs' last night. It's more of a kids film but I had to get it, because apart from being full of dogs, it has a brindle Mastiff in one of the main roles :) (ahhh, looks just like Buster :) ).

Anyway, I watched the 'extras' on the disk that included how they actually got all of the dogs to perform the tasks/tricks needed - every single dog had it's own trainer (each canine role had at least 2 dogs to play that part so there were a lot of dogs & trainers) - they ALL used biscuits!!!! :) (thats reward-based training for CM fans ;) ).

There was a variety of breeds involved, Mastiffs, Dobe's, Chinese Cresteds, Poodles, Bulldogs, Collies and others.They only covered the training for a few minutes, I wish they showed it for longer, it was great to watch & the dogs LOVED it. 
Perhaps if things like this were shown at the start of films with dogss in (rather than on the seperate 'extras' menue of the DVD), more people would see that reward-based training is highly effective and the dogs enjoy it.

can i add polly thomas and rod roberts to the list please?they are both excellent!

iv been watching the , its me or the dog with Victoria Stillwell on the channel 4 catch up and i used some of her training methods on my young bully and i was impressed it worked almost straight away dont like the CM just cause of the pinning the dog to the floor bit iv seen him do i dont want to pin my boy to the floor to make him behave, victoria's way works great for me and mine so she got mt vote :-)

I have to disagree with your comment regarding Jan Fennell ............... my employers hired her expertise with one of the dogs and I spent the day with her - it's all about educating the owner/handler and I tried her methods/advice on a Beauceron X puppy and the results were amazing.  The main reasons for our success was that her advice had taught me to see the bigger picture and I was therefore able to relieve our dog from any responsibility that she was not able to deal with.  She was happy with her place in the household and she developed an absolute trust with us and she developed into a very confident but extremely respectful lady.  This wasn't a fluke as I then used the same consistent methods with a young rescue GSD and the results were equally as good.
I do believe that we can use many different methods to suit ourselves and a lot of experts will have some very good advice to offer but the key to having a good relationship with your dog is consistency and never assume that they always know what you want from them.............. so patience is essential.
But on this occasion I do think your Aunt is wrong to say that Jan is rubbish but I guess we are all entitled to our opinions!

WOW i wrote that ages ago!

>I have to disagree with your comment regarding Jan Fennell ............... my employers hired her expertise with one of the dogs and I spent the day with her

Well if the police can waste £350 an hour plus travelling expenses to have this woman use her expertize on a Servicing Police dog they should be ashamed. The GSDs she used to show were very bad examples of her "Amichien"bonding, they had to be strung & propped up in the ring as they couldn't be handled any other way.

She is a poor dogs trainer, she failed tragically with a one dog, the dog had to be PTS & the owner ended up in hospital after over £2,000 worth of dog listening by her

Your prices are a little exagerated, it was 8 years ago so maybe she charges more now but it was nowhere near that price.  Thankfully I listen and take the good points from most people I meet even if I don't entirely agree with all aspects of their advice.  As for her show dogs, I cannot comment as I never saw one in the ring nor have I judged any of her dogs.
I have had a good experience with Jan & quite clearly you have not so we'll agree to disagree. 
I do not know the circumstances behind the person who's dog had to be destroyed but I do believe that dog trainer's can train a dog themselves however once back with the owner it's up to the owner to carry on the good work and stick to the advice that was given.

> Your prices are a little exagerated, it was 8 years ago so maybe she charges more now but it was nowhere near that price.

They certainly are not exaggerated at all & at one time were on her site & those of her acolytes.

She bases her "method"on the study of captive bred & reared wolves, wild dogs etc in artificial packs, such studies have been debunked by the real experts in wolf & wild dog behaviour(including David Mech).

Any police force that wastes public money on behaviourists for their dogs, when there is wealth of experience & knowledge within the police dog sectors throughout the country, needs to seriously be investigated.

The dog that was PTS had an owner who followed her instructions to the letter, which is what caused the problem that resulted in the dogs demise & the damage it caused to it's owner. It was actually show briefly on her TV program, but the outcome was never mentioned as it was one of her many abject failures.

Her show dogs were at Crufts & the GSDs are on video not only backing off the judge, but also creeping around the ring, obviously scared out of their minds !!!