It seems a bit odd to be new on this forum and asking for help but I have read other posts regarding this with interest but would welcome any advice

I have a puppy who may well have this problem, he will be a year old in August

About 3/4 weeks ago we noticed that he was stumbling but put this down to his recently diagnosed hip problem.

Progressively he deteriorated and then was struggling to get up so we visited the vet who thought he may have an ear infection and prescribed antibiotics which made no difference, so in consultation with a neuro specialist he was prescribed an additional anti-biotic, again no help.

Meanwhile we were watching our poor boy staggering around, unable to stand properly to go to the toilet and generally looking more and more confused. He also had a load of blood taken to check for anything that may show up - these all came back normal or no infection. He was also treated for lungworm in case he was infected and there had been a small bleed.

After nearly two weeks of this we were finally able to see the neurologist who said that he may have vestibular syndrome. He then had an MRI which showed no infection, inflammation, brain damage etc and also a CSF Tap which has also shown no problems. As a result he has been put on steroids to see if they help his recovery, 10 days of taking these and there would appear to be no marked improvement in his condition apart from an initial minor one. We are back to the Vets at the end of the week.

If he is chasing something or very focussed he can move in a straight line otherwise he finds it very very difficult to stand up let alone move without having a wall to lean on - bit like he has had way too much to drink.

So I am wondering if anyone has had this in a very young dog and has any suggestion that may help, I am going cross eyed with trawling the web.

Things against it being vestibular

He is very young
He has not had the nystagmus (flicking eyes) as far as we are aware
It was gradual rather than sudden onset
He is eating and drinking just fine and was before the steroids
He is not, apparently, improving after nearly 4 weeks

Things for it being vestibular

Head Tilt
Lurching to the left
Staggering

I have given him anti-sea sickness tablets, not sure if these help - anyone else tried them
Would Vivitonin help?

Also there is a very vague reference to the Glucosamine/MSM supplement being something that may cause some problems (in Humans with inner ear problems), he's been on it since he was diagnosed with bad hips - now stopped to see if things improve. Anyone else found this?

All help appreciated as this is so distressing to watch and not knowing if he will improve and there apparently being nothing wrong according to all the tests he's had.

What breed is it just in case the symptoms could be a breed related health problem

Not thought to be breed related, checked those hence the CSF Tap (possible immune mediated problems) but he is a Toller

> Would Vivitonin help?
>

Some neurologists recommend this as it dilates the blood vessels and may open up new neural pathways. This can be a help if there is brain damage for any reason. It's quite commonly prescribed for elderly dogs with heart problems, or any age dog with seizure disorders.

Sorry to hear about your puppy. Hope he improves soon.

Oh gosh, I can empathise with what you are going through. My older dog suffered a vestibular incident a number of weeks ago, you may have read my panic posts on the forum!

I am no expert but my vet did tell me that the nystagmus was the critical sign to look for when diagnosing this condition. The gradual onset also seems less likely to indicate this condition. Is it possible that the nystagmus was missed? Jaff only had this for the first few days and then it rectified. The head tilt and balance issues peristed for perhaps 3 weeks.

It also seems odd that your dog can run straight when focused. Running is something which still poses a slight problem for Jaff although it's slowly getting better.

I also trawled the web and, although more common in older dogs, I did find articles about it occuring in much younger dogs.

It's often the not-knowing which is the worst isn't it? Once we know what we are dealing with then we feel more able to focus on recovery.

My thoughts are with you and I do hope things improve very soon

Things just don't seem to improve, we've reached a plateau and he isn't getting better

I am beginning to question vestibular syndrome as he definitely didn't have the nystagmus - unless he had it at night when we were asleep and so we missed it

It is more like a vertigo thing as he leans to the left all the time except when focussed and is definitely far far worse if he's been lying down. He definitely improves with exercise, but we can't keep him upright all the time and again that is not a vestibular thing either.

Having said that do dogs get vertigo?

Thing is we are kind of getting used to seeing him wandering around in this condition but every time he lurches into the furniture or can't stand/crouch properly to go to the toilet you just want it to get better

Feeling very sorry for my poor little puppy :(

Having been through something very similar i can really understand how distressing it is to watch, tragically my outcome was not good and i really hope you have a good outcome and can get to the bottom of what is wrong.

My girl had spinal deformities but her problems came on gradually from about 5 months, she learned to cope and compensate for her condition, sadly things took a bad turn overnight and we had a hard decision to make.

However the spine has been checked hasnt it?
If he has no co-ordination it does sound spinal related, but there is so many things and this is why i do hope you find a diagnosis, not knowing what is wrong is awful.

Wishing your boy a full and speedy recovery :)

The steroids will most probably give him a boost but what are you going to do long term?? Hope he will be ok and keep treating him special :)

> Having said that do dogs get vertigo?

I don't know about vertigo, but hypothyroidism can cause drunken walking and vestibular/balance problems, has his thyroid function been checked?

When we had his hips X-rayed I also had an X-ray done of his stomach, mostly because he eats everything he finds and I wanted to check there were no stones etc in there, so he had most of his spine X-rayed from the side and front, can't see anything there so hope not spinal.

Thyroid function has been checked and nothing abnormal found

Since the steroids haven't really made a difference he is coming off them - who knows if they are masking something then things may get worse or no difference.

The vet has said that they don't think he will get better and we have to accept and manage ...... NOT A GOOD ANSWER

Next step is to give him time to come off the steroids and see the effect also to chase the neurologist to see if he has come up with anything fromhis contacts

then I will change his food, no reaason to suspect it but who knows he may be having an allergic reaction

We will then take ourselves off to the holistic vets to see what they can do after the poor lad has had a few weeks off from vets and their ministrations.

Every suggestion people have I do look in to to see if it is possible so please keep your ideas coming, you never know something might spring to mind and someone somewhere has had this problem just need to find them.

I haven't any suggestions at all, I'm sorry to say.

Just wanted to say that I'm sending positive vibes, and truly hope that you get this sorted.  You must be distraught.

{{{  HUGS  }}}

Distraught is definitely one of the emotions we have gone through

Looking at Inflammatory CNS Disease specifically encephalitis now as this may be an answer and seems to fit a bit better with the symptoms.

Trouble is that they are all described as "ideopathic" which basically means 'we have no idea what or why but he's got it'

Anyone any ideas?

I assessed a toller for Gundog Club, who had very similar symptoms, and was operated on.   I really don't know exactly what was wrong, but I can find out the owner's name and PM you if you like.

The little dog was well enough to take and pass her assessment, but couldn't have been that long after the operation, as her head was still shaved.

Jo

Edited to say I dare say your pup has been checked for Wobbler syndrome?

If you wouldn't mind that would be very kind

We have just picked up the revised doseage of Steroids for if he continues to deteriorate and it is worryingly massive but if it helps ......

Wobblers is wrong as although he is uncoordinated he doesn't have any of the other symptoms

How would I know if my dog has wobbler syndrome?
Signs of disease include:

Weakness and incoordinated gait (known as ataxia), usually first seen in the pelvic limbs
Lameness/stiffness in the thoracic limbs
Neck pain and/or stiffness
Partial or complete paralysis

Hi. Certainly some of rhe symptoms are of Inflammatory CNS Disease, possibly meningoencephalitis. The cause of this condition can be immune mediated. Problem is, if it is a CNS inflamation the steroids would have produced remarkable improvement which i gather hasn't happened. However to obtain improvement, the dose of prednislone must be high. If it isn't high enough you wont see improvement. Have you thought of asking your vet for a referal to a neuro specialist, where a spinal tap &  MRI could be done.
I feel for you and wish you the best

Yes that was the problem, we saw a marginal improvement and then nothing and after last night when he fell over and couldn't get up we have gone onto the high doseage -  now we are on a dose of 70mg for 2 days and then 35mgs for 3 weeks which is quite a lot higher than it was. Gonna be interesting managing the hunger and drinking

MRI and CSF done - nothing showed up, bloods done - nothing

Not fair in any dog let alone one that isn't yet a year old

Sorry I've just re-read your first post, saw you'd seen neuro's. Well if the MRI showed no inflammation I can't see it could be meningoencephalitis, tho I suppose it can't be ruled out completely. I do hope the Pred works and that you see a real improvement in your young dog. Which referral specialists did you see ?
Take Care

and therein lies the problem

"In rare occasion, cerebrospinal fluid can be normal despite the presence of an inflammatory CNS disease" to quote an article on it. Can be encepahlitis rather than mengio-encephalitis although would more usually be the latter.

We went to Bath but have a referral to Cambridge if we need to take it up or we go to the AHT, gonna wait to see how the preds work this week, I think a marginal improvement but .......

I wish I could give you the answers but, even though my boy is much older, I do empathise with the distress of watching your dogs struggle with balance.

Positive thoughts being sent your way

xxx