Obviously, I breed to improve my line - and I breed for ME nobody else - but that doesn't mean I have to keep one from every litter I breed (1, maybe 2 litters a year).

But YOUR scenario is entirely understandable and is responsible -you don't breed ONLY to sell, that isn't your aim. You have an actual goal -if that goal doesn't appear in every litter of course you shouldn't be forced to keep a pup that isn't what you need if good homes are available. It's just the luck of the draw. I have a litter of kittens at the moment, I had planned to keep two females back for myself, in the end the litter consisted of just ONE male kitten with a poor bite, hence he's not staying. The aim of the mating wasn't to sell the entire litter, but it didn't work out that way.

If there had been a bitch I felt to be good enough then I would have kept one of course - I nearly did
(but I now know I made the right decision not to and was right to go with my gut feelings about her at the time)  - but I still may have bought this pup in because she is from such sound breeding and is wholecolour (mine are partis) and I did want to add wholecolours to my breeding programme - at some point anyway. This pup I have bought in I feel is a privilege to own.

>It would appear from the comments that it is a closed shop and only a few can have a well bred pup.

The main problem is geographical distribution. The well-bred puppies from breeders who breed for themselves are everywhere, but they won't always have a litter available at the drop of a hat! If someone in Cornwall wents a puppy from a particular breed, there could well be superb puppies available in Northumberland. But will the buyer want to go there? Are you saying that there should be breeders in Cornwall producing puppies just in case?

the fact that these were quality, health tested puppies didn't seem to matter.

JenP, I suspect that we may disagree as to quality? :)  You can health test a dog that bears little resemblance to the breed standard and that doesn't make it worthy or breeding.  Some breeders also say that they will remove breeding restrictions of their pups if health tested with no question about its quality or temperament.  This is why I said at the beginning that if people keep breeding pet quality for generations then the pups will hardly look nothing like the breed that puppy buyers deserve. :(

Back to my previous post
"But I also see no reason why a family wanting 'just a pet' shouldn't have a happy, healthy pet who is ALSO a good representative of their breed."

Another thought aimed at all, would you say that it is justified to breed from a dog/bitch that although not good enough to show due to some minor fault comes from excellent lines and is paired to a partner of equally good lines, all health screening done of course.

Pinky, it depends if the 'minor fault' really is just a minor fault that has appeared for the first time or is an ongoing fault that is difficult to reverse.  How would a pet breeder know that without knowing the dogs and siblings in their bitch's pedigree?  For instance pricked ears in a breed that should have dropped ears might seem minor but is in fact a difficult problem to correct and completely spoils the expression if wrong. :)

And how would a pet breeder determine 'excellent lines' without experience about the many lines available?

And just because a breeder has been breeding for many years doesn't meant that they know what they're doing. :) :) ;)  Some people have been in a breed for 12 months, have listened and learned from those with knowledge and make great progress.  I know others who have been in my breed for 20+ years who have learned nothing because they stay at home and just produce puppies, living from their dogs. :(

Health screening is of course important but only a small part of a very big picture. :)  And again back to my previous post "But I also see no reason why a family wanting 'just a pet' shouldn't have a happy, healthy pet who is ALSO a good representative of their breed."

JenP, I suspect that we may disagree as to quality?

Well that will always happen - as I work my dogs and don't show them and given the huge divide between show and working, in my breed, I wouldn't have a show type dog, and while you may have seen the dogs in the litter in question, you will be in a better position to judge as I haven't seen the actually dogs and have no idea whether they are pet quality.   I'm not questioning the value of breeding from dogs that are poor quality or have poor temperaments, simply the fact that the only no one should breed unless they are keeping a puppy from the litter.

But I also see no reason why a family wanting 'just a pet' shouldn't have a happy, healthy pet who is ALSO a good representative of their breed

I absolutely agree with that but can't see the correlation between having a good representative of the breed and only breeding when you keep a puppy.  Just because a breeder doesn't keep a puppy it does not mean that they don't take great care and pride in the puppies they breed.  If people choose to only breed when they want a puppy then fine - that is their perogative - I have no problem with that, but to say that unless breeding to keep a puppy the puppies in the litter will be poor and will involve cost cutting doesn't make sense.

but to say that unless breeding to keep a puppy the puppies in the litter will be poor and will involve cost cutting doesn't make sense.

No nobody is saying that.  We're saying that to produce puppies to sell is what commercial puppy producers do.  Breed enthusiasts, people who are passionate about their respective breeds, breed for themselves and for the good of their breed and the ongoing gene pool.  Breed enthusiasts are custodians of their breeds while they are here, hopefully passing on improved quality in body and mind to the next generation to continue.

I think that the difference has become wider between breed enthusiasts and puppy producers because of the way that pedigree dog ownership and dog breeding have changed in just one human generation.  When I was a child (I've only JUST got my bus pass!) ordinary families has mongrels as pets, because a friend/relatives dog had been got at!  Very few ordinary families had pedigree dogs and when they did it was because they knew someone.  Pedigree dogs were only bred by people with land, money and staff.  They knew their lines and pedigrees inside out and back to front, often running on whole litters to see what a mating would produce, good and bad, and culling the matings that didn't work.  There was no dog cruelty (unless you consider responsible culling cruelty) in domestic homes and no rescue kennels.  Breeders took responsibility for everything that they produced.

Now almost everyone with a bitch thinks that they should be breeding puppies, many with minimum knowledge, just the love of their dog, which to me is the biggest problem.  Vets encourage pet breeding because these owners are more likely to need their help.  Rescue kennels are full to heaving with badly bred and cross bred dogs that have been sold to inappropriate homes.  Many people want what they want, whether it fits their life style or not and they want it NOW.  So they look on the internet or buy a local paper and buy from the first person who is advertising what they think they want.  But then that's not the sort of owner that I want for my pups so they don't come into my life. :)

Golly I've seen some changes in my time! :(

as I work my dogs and don't show them and given the huge divide between show and working, in my breed, I wouldn't have a show type dog
I have no problem with working folk breeding working dogs regardless of what they look like.  They're bred for that purpose as a priority.  The same as agility people will breed crosses because they want dogs fit for agility.  Many of these people will get a rescue dog because they can assess it's potential as a young adult easier than a pup.

The question to ask is whether the breeder wanted to produce their own puppy (with a few extra to cover the costs) or to cover the costs and make a profit.

If I might just remind folk of what was actually said to start this debate off.......

I commented that I warn people to be carefull of those who advertise whole litters and dont intend to keep one themself.

We may find exceptions and there may be some breeders out there, breeding litters that make nice pets, not keeping anything just selling...but is anyone actually saying that this is not a good general rule of thumb when trying to detect a BYB from a reputable breeder?

> as would my stud dog owner.
>
> Does that mean that you use the same stud dog or stud dogs from the same kennel all the time roscoebabe

No I have used different dogs over the yrs and traveled hundreds of miles in the process

> Roscoebabe, I'm also interested to know where this information has come from because it completely the opposite to what Malcolm Willis told me.

A lady who hails from Chesire and probably has too much time on her hands lol has a huge database on all things gsd told me. She does have a habit apparantly of blinding folk with science but as I dont know her all that well I only contact her if there is something I'm not quite sure on.

I would think that someone who is a member of a breed club and who clearly has a passion for their chosen breed is a good rule of thumb when searching for a good breeder ... amongst many other things of course.

None of my girls have been shown but have good pedigrees (for show and health) and I must admit I would only consider a health tested show dog as a stud. I hope to show my new girl when she is old enough though.
I think if you breed but don't show yourself you should be heavily guided by someone who does and try only to use stud dogs that are successful with good lines for health too. I personally would not advise anyone to consider a breeder unless this was the case. Pet quality dogs bred to pet quality dogs will ultimately produce generations of dogs not resembling the breed standard imo.

Can I ask another question? You all keep going on about buying from breeders who have proved the quality of their dogs in the show ring - but what standard should you be looking at? Does a 'show breeder' mean one who very occasionally has a win at an Open Show, or one who has made up several champions? Obviously, some of that depends on the number of dogs shown in a breed, but if you take a really popular one like Cavaliers (where there are obviously a lot of BYB) is it better to buy a puppy from someone who only ever goes to Open Shows because they know they don't stand a chance at the Champ Shows - and uses a stud dog belonging to a friend who also only goes to open shows, or from someone who doesn't show, but is breeding from really well-bred bitches that have all health tests (including MRI scan) and using champion stud dogs?

is it better to buy a puppy from someone who only ever goes to Open Shows because they know they don't stand a chance at the Champ Shows - and uses a stud dog belonging to a friend who also only goes to open shows,
or from someone who doesn't show, but is breeding from really well-bred bitches that have all health tests (including MRI scan) and taking them to champion dogs?
If I were looking for a Cavalier, I would go to neither type of breeder.  Winning at an Open Show has little merit as most judges these days aren't even breed judges.  They are excellent practice for Champ Shows. 

I would look for a breeder whose dogs are consistantly placed at Champ Shows - not necessarily the top breeder who wins all the CCs. :)  To me, someone whose dogs are well placed under a variety of judges, and keeps bringing out the next generation who are doing the same, is someone who has learned how to produce quality pups.  Of course in a breed like Cavaliers I would most certainly want not only the parents health tested but for generations behind. :)  Just testing the parents is rarely good enough in any breed......

> I would look for a breeder whose dogs are consistantly placed at Champ Shows - not necessarily the top breeder who wins all the CCs. :-)  To me, someone whose dogs are well placed under a variety of judges, and keeps bringing out the next generation who are doing the same, is someone who has learned how to produce quality pups.  Of course in a breed like Cavaliers I would most certainly want not only the parents health tested but for generations behind. :-)

Sadly because of the way the judging in Cavaliers is at Championship shows, those that consistently get placed usually have the same bloodlines as the top kennels, just not owned/showed by them. The current show trend in Cavaliers appears lots of coat & shortish legs. Breeders appear to have lost the reason that the dogs were originally bred. they were not just"lap dogs"they should be spaniels & being short legged would restrict their retrieval of Woodcock, as does the very short muzzles currently in vogue.

There are some show breeders out there that breed dogs that do have the correct structure, but they rarely get a look in at Championship shows.

Roodee isn't from a show breeder, but a breeder who has an in depth knowledge of the breed, whose bitch was bred by a breeder who is reasonably successful at shows, but whose main aim is to breed a cavalier, that is "fit for function"both mentally & physically. Roodee could be shown, but I haven't the time at the moment & TBH I have fallen out with getting up at the crack of dawn, driving miles just for a few minutes in the ring which for my dogs is so very boring ! Roodee is all I could want in a Cavalier & has a temperament & attitude to die for-plus he is now a very lovely boy(Complete with all his bits & a perfect mouth & health parents & G Parents)

"Roodee isn't from a show breeder, but a breeder who has an in depth knowledge of the breed, whose bitch was bred by a breeder who is reasonably successful at shows, but whose main aim is to breed a cavalier, that is "fit for function"both mentally & physically."

The above comment of courses proves that nothing is black and white - I currently don't show myself and I would like to think I could be considered as the sort of breeder to approach for a pup.
As always, it is a case of potential owners doing their homework on their chosen breed, knowing what to look for and then finding the breeder that they feel entirely comfortable with.

There are people out there that show whose puppies I wouldn't touch with a barge pole. You cannot simplify the breeding of dogs by saying Show breeder = Ideal breeder, Non show breeder = avoid like the plague. Nothing is that easy and straightforward !

There are people out there that show whose puppies I wouldn't touch with a barge pole.
I agree.
You cannot simplify the breeding of dogs by saying Show breeder = Ideal breeder, Non show breeder = avoid like the plague. Nothing is that easy and straightforward !
Nobody is saying that it is.  I'm just saying what I would do if I was buying a Cavalier as I did some 25 years ago.  I wouldn't buy a puppy from someone who sat at home producing puppies unless they had been showing and had now retired with their knowledge and experience entact. :)

Thankyou for some interesting comments. :)

This isn't just a hypothetical question as I have been trying to help my cousin buy a nice Cavalier for her family. My instinct was to go to the 'top' kennels - but most of them don't seem to do all the health tests :( or if they do, have a waiting list a mile long. My cousin was quite prepared to wait a reasonable length of time - but she would like to get her much wanted dog before the kids grow up and leave home (they are seven and ten!!!)! We went to see a couple of litters from so-called 'show' breeders who told us that they don't go to the major shows because the entries are so huge that only the 'known faces' get a look in. I don't know much about the breed, but TBH the bitches didn't seem to have much quality, and both breeders had used a friend's stud dog, also with an Open Show record only.

In the end we found someone who has been breeding for decades, now older and doesn't go to many shows at all - although she has been very successful in another breed in the past. Her bitches are from very well known lines - and actually look like the breed - they have lovely temperaments, have done all the health tests, and she has a litter due next week by a champion-sired dog, also fully health tested, MRI scanned, heart tested for several generations, etc. Cousin, hubby and kids have been to visit a couple of times already, made really welcome, and will be able to follow the progress of 'their' puppy until he or she is old enough to come home. This lady told me she doesn't like to sell to show homes as so often the dogs are kept in crates for large periods of the day (one of the 'show' breeders we visited had 20 dogs and worked full time!) or are passed on to a third party if they don't make the grade in the show ring.

You've probably chosen the better of the two options lincolnimp. :)

>and also loves the frienships that have  developed over the years with her puppy buyers.
>To use a bitch to have pups to make friends is one of the saddest excuses that I've heard in a long time.

and to breed for carbon copy type, just to run around a ring for a piece of ribbon or a shiny object is a good excuse? LOL
Although I agree with a lot of what has been said here regarding breeding, come on... dogs have been around for companionship and function for a GREAT deal longer than for showing. And if breeding a dog for looks isn't catering to a public market, then I don't know what is!

>> and to breed for carbon copy type, just to run around a ring for a piece of ribbon or a shiny object is a good excuse? LOL

I have three Border Collies, not bred for their looks or to win in the show ring, they are all bred to work, they are all KC registered & one is a pure ISDS dog with no KC dogs behind him.

Why is it the GP believes all pedigree dogs are bred for their looks alone ?

Considering I am not GP and the comment was not a reply to you or any of your comments. There is nothing wrong with breeding a dog to do what it does best, but I wonder, do you work them?

> There is nothing wrong with breeding a dog to do what it does best, but I wonder, do you work them?

Yes I do on a Dorper flock & a organic milking herd of Fresians.

What do you do with your dogs ?

A number of things, they are kept for their companionship and to work. LOL Thanks for the interest.

Work as in what the breed was developed for originally ?

Yes

Gosh you are very secretive Obviously working your dogs is a matter of need to know basis

You obviously like to take and make things personal, maybe you have too much time on your hands. :)

> You obviously like to take and make things personal, maybe you have too much time on your hands. :-)

You actually started this by asking Moonmaiden if she worked her dogs - she answered you, telling you how she worked her dogs so I can't see that it's unreasonable for her to ask what work your own dogs do. Certainly there is no need for this kind of reply which is quite clearly making things personal!

Anyway, this thread seems to have run it's course now and is getting rather long so I'm closing it.