Sorry to moan and complain, but I am coming to the end of my rope with my dog (or, I should say, my lack of leadership nous and skills - not her!!).

She is aggressive to other dogs and the problem seems to develop a little more with every day that passes, no matter what I do.  It would take ages to explain all the things I've tried, but suffice to say we are on our second behaviourist/trainer, still can't get into classes because she is too unstable, and I am exhausting myself and her with all the rules we are sticking to in terms of leadership.  Using the "NILIF" concept all the time in the house, taking control of where she walks in "the pack" when we are out (behind me, or in front with my "permission" etc etc), owning all the doorways, and so and so on, ad infinitum.  I never thought owning a dog would be so complicated.

She is responding, and her basic obedience is excellent.  It was never particularly bad to begin with, actually.  But I'm frustrated that we are making no progress with her attitude towards other dogs.  She has to spend all her time on a lead, yet other owners allow their dogs to wander up to her off-lead, which spooks her and sets her off into lunging/barking/snarling/tasmanian devil mode (no matter "protective" stance I try to take).  When I'm doing my bit and making my dog wait quietly (huh, she's quiet until another dog gets within 40 yards), I get people looking at me sympathetically and asking if she's a rescue dog.  I just got a bit tetchy with some poor well-meaning lady who asked if she was a resuce, snapping at her that No, I got this dog as a puppy so yes it IS all my fault.

I feel mean now.  I have dozens of dog training books, and recently ordered some on aggression, one of which I read cover to cover last night (Aggression by Barbara Sykes), and now I feel like the most useless person that ever had the gall to believe she could ever own a feisty terrier.

I've got a session booked with our trainer tomorrow, we have a stooge dog all set up and everything meticulously planned, right down to my poor little brat wearing a muzzle.  I used to look forward to our sessions, so keen was I to make progress, but right now I'm dreading it because I feel totally defeated....that I just can't do it.  I feel like giving up and just living with the fact that my dog will never again go off-lead, and will always lunge aggressively at other dogs she doesn't know.

Any words of wisdom to give me a proverbial kick up the backside?  I love my dog, she's not going anywhere - I owe it to her to get this right, but we are both feeling frayed under the pressure.  Perhaps I'm expecting too much?  :(

I cant add any words of wisdom really but do understand how exhausting this can be, I have had dog issues with my dog and no he isn't a rescue either LOL. read everything, spent money, spent time and also lost my confidence in being able to take him out and concluded although he is not my first dog or the first I have had in this breed, Gsd, that I  am not cabable of owning this breed and that it is all my fault ( ring any bells) recently went to a very good behaviourist (see my other posts) and yes we are getting somewhere slowly no idea if we will ever beable to take him out and relax as I expected nor go to shows etc but things are improving. I saw things a little different when Iit was explained to me that most agression is due in some way to fear. Now I see him in a different light rather than a naughty disobedient dog that I am failing I see him like a child who is anxious and needs care to get then through things, it defintely help me.Its not you who are not making progress he jsut isn't comfortable yet. Small steps and do go tomorrow as long as you are happy with your trainer and feel they are supporting and understanding the problem. I have been to some classes where I have come out nearly in tears feeling such an idiot with a bad dog that I am not trying hard enough .. not true.
My dog is ball crazy and now if is focused on a ball we can deal with other dogs around us much better the ball being motre interesting. Is there anything like that your dog will focus on, will he focus on you the good old "watch " command that has certainly got me out of potential problems. We also have a small circle of doggy friends he is comfortable with now and aim to add one or two calm dogs we meet when we can. If he looks to be getting excited or anious I move on to safe quiet areas. Mind you this has been after the report form the behaviurist with her ideas.

   
Take a deep breath see if you can find any improvements no matter how small and set up some successes if you can
its a tiring way to live but I suppose we love our dogs. good luck
I

are you, perchance, defensive handling?
handling your dog with anxiety?

what equipment do you use and how do you use it?

can you elaborate on the 'protective stance' bit?

also, why do you feel its all a dominance issue and related to activities like owning doorways etc?

what type of behaviourist did you use?

It sounds like you may be going about things the wrong way. You don't need to be a pack leader or walk through doors first etc -it makes no difference, just turns you into a bit of a bully (no offence intended!), dogs know we are not dogs and hence we are not part of their packs. So maybe what you need is a behaviourist or trainer that uses up to date training methods (the pack leader theory stems from the 1940's!) that acknowledges this? Whereabouts in the country are you? (I can ask my trainer if she knows of anyone in the right area.)

If you use a stooge dog you need to do it VERY gradually, over several weeks. To start with the other dog needs to be as far away as for your dog to NOT react, but still be able to SEE it -and then you praise a LOT. Moving closer can take a very long time indeed, but it DOES work -I've done it with one of my own dogs. Chances are your dog is in fact scared of other dogs and therefore feels (learned behaviour) that attack is the best defence, so forcing her to be close to other dogs is about as useful as putting a human scared of snakes in a room full of snakes. :) Of course it could be genuine aggression, but in my experience that is much less likely.

Hiya Susie72

Listen, i'm no expert but read your post and wanted to offer some sympathy.  I've got a (nearly) 6 month old shih-tzu so i'm new to all this, but it's been a huge learning curve so far and if i can offer any moral support then that's good enough for me. 

You don't say how old your terrier is?  If she is still young i suppose she is still learning too.  Who knows why some dogs are worried by other dogs; maybe you could get one of those long-leash gadgets to let her have some freedom but you're still in control?  Other owners can be a headache to me too.  Only this morning Teddy was approached by 2 collies, a cocker and a border terrier off-lead.  Actually it was fine but i didn't know that in advance.  In these situations you feel you have to trust in the owner's judgement. Me being me, i immediately think that these people are wonderfullyi n control of their dogs and excellently trained - but actually who really is 100% sure of a dog's behaviour in situations with other dogs?  I always put Ted on his lead as soon as i see another dog anywhere near, something i was taught at training class; kind of stops anything negative happening proactively....and he really is too little for me to be confident of his reactions, even though he has never shown aggression to any other dog. 

And then there are the wonderful people who put their dog on lead as soon as they see you and i breathe a sigh of relief, pass them happily - maybe the dogs say hi/maybe not, and everybody has had a positive experience.  The other day an excited JR had Ted pinned down sniffing at him, the owner said "he can be a bit feisty" i thought, could you please tell that to Teddy, that is if you can find the bundle of fur underneath Mr JR Feisty!!

Another time we were having a coffee outside a cafe and 2 other little dogs came along - always a cue for Ted to start barking his hello's...so i was worried it would annoy everybody else so asked the owner if i could bring him over to say hi, that usually puts a stop to the over-enthusiasm.  She said actually no, she'd rather not, as one of her dog was nervous with other dogs and wouldn't be happy with it.  I thought that's fine, glad she'd said so.  I didn't think her dog was a rescue or otherwise.  They are all different and have their foibles.

Anyway, good luck with your terrier, she sounds like she really responds to the obedience stuff you're doing and is happy at home.  Suggest you have a few lines rehearsed when you meet other owners rather than worry too much about your dog because it's they who should respect your knowledge of your dog. 

All a bit long and waffley, keep your chin up and all will come good i'm sure.

i don't have this problem as bad as you but my min schnauzer does get nervous around other dogs but would rather run away than fight. i find the best way to deal with this is firstly to avoid any head on meeting with other dogs but if this can't be helped i ignore the other dog and just walk on calling mine in a high pitched excited voice and then she follows me and leaves the other dog alone. i know your not at this stage but this may help later when your dog has finished training.
the other thing is they pick up on your mood and nervousness so you must not show this otherwise he will respond by feeling he has to protect you. easier said than done i know.
if you meet another dog while out then for now i would keep a certain distance if you can and if they get closer try and distract and turn away walking in the other direction, don't make a big thing of it and stand their trying to make him think your in charge if this hasn't worked before. just take no notice of the other dog and like i said walk away. in other words your not worried or interested in the other dog so no need for him to be.
if you see someone walking towards you try and tell them your dog is nervous before they get to you and hopefully they will call their dog back. i have done this a few times and people do understand. the less confrontation with other dogs at the moment the better, unless under a controlled situation.
like lots of things this isn't a quick fix and he may never really like some dogs but that doesn't mean he will be aggressive either, like i said one of my dogs has just learnt to ignore dogs she doesn't know and i know thats the best i'm going to get with her but i can live with that. silly really as my other two dogs get on well with just about any dogs i meet.
stay positive i'm sure your get their in the end but it will take time and for you to be calm and relaxed about it.

Thanks, furriefriends - nice to know I am not alone in feeling rather weary and frustrated with it all!  I'm a bit more fotunate than you, in that I only have a little Patterdale, not a GSD!

Krusewalker - YES I am absolutely defensive handling, I don't doubt it.  I have all good intentions and do the whole "think like a leader" bit 95% of the time, and she is as good as gold.  As soon as we see another dog, it just flies out the window.  I've seen her attacked, and her launch an attack, so many times its hard to see anything else.  I know I'm giving her all the wrong signals but I just don't know how to change....my heart races first, then I can feel hers start through the harness!

Our first behaviourist wanted to use "time out" whenever she behaved aggressively, but when it didn't work, he suggested a spray collar.  After an incident where my dog nipped a woman who was trying to protect her own dog, I asked the vet to refer us to someone else, and we now use a lady who is well known in this area for rehabilitating aggressive dogs.  Her classes are packed full, and I have been and observed all levels of them...twice.  Her Gold Good Citizen Class is full of dogs who were at the point of euthanasia a year ago.

Marianne, the trainer is a great supporter of Cesar Millan, and I admit that to begin with I was sceptical (I'm not a huge fan of his) - and we had a couple of conversations about the whole dominance theory (which I believe is old hat).  But thats her method, and frankly as it seems to work with dogs much worse than mine, I feel I have no choice but to go with it.

With her teachings and what I have read so far, it seems that my dog is nervous aggressive, because I failed to provide her with adequate protection when she was younger, so evidently she has "lost faith" in my abilities as a leader.  By "protective stance", I mean that when a threat appears - i.e another dog - I should put her behind me, using myself as a shield between her and the threat.  This would apparently increase her confidence in me.....unfortunately, last weekend when I tried it, she promptly redirected her aggression onto the back of my leg for my trouble. :(

Hence we have rushed forward an emergency session to deal more directly with the aggression - until now we were working very slowly on obedience.

I'm so tired of the dominance thing and I'm not convinced.  I read that Barbara Sykes book last night and thats pretty much what it was all based around.

EDIT thanks to Teddy and Bear too, sorry I was typing as you posted!  Very heartening, thank you :)

Marianne, the trainer is a great supporter of Cesar Millan, and I admit that to begin with I was sceptical (I'm not a huge fan of his) - and we had a couple of conversations about the whole dominance theory (which I believe is old hat).  But thats her method, and frankly as it seems to work with dogs much worse than mine, I feel I have no choice but to go with it.

Ah. :( Sorry but there's your answer -this is why your dog is not getting better. Totally, utterly wrong approach to training. You DEFINITELY need to ditch this trainer -fast.

When I say she is a fan, there are certain things about him she believes in....but believe me, nobody will ever "poke" my dog like that, and I won't either.  It seems to be more about the overall dominance theory, rather than everything else (no "bite" contact, thank you very much).

She is also quite flexible, meaning that she doesn't insist on all or nothing.  So far she hasn't pushed any really major CM-isms onto me (I told her at our first session that I respected about 5% of his overall teaching!)

> the trainer is a great supporter of Cesar Millan, and I admit that to begin with I was sceptical (I'm not a huge fan of his) - and we had a couple of conversations about the whole dominance theory (which I believe is old hat).  But thats her method, and frankly as it seems to work with dogs much worse than mine, I feel I have no choice but to go with it

Hm I don't think CM will have much experience of terriers bred to kill foxes !

Have you had her since she was a puppy ? 

Having read the only book on Patterdales written by one of the top men in the breed, Sean Frain it is very important to socialize them from the early possible date. They are a very tenacious breed & do need firm, consistent guidance from their owners. They actually have really nice temperaments with people, but don't make the best pet dog. You have to remember that this isn't a breed that is bred to flush out foxes from their earth, but to actual take on the fox head on & kill it-this is why they need so much socialization-so they learn the difference between prey & dog.

My neighbour had a Patterdale & when I walked him he was no trouble at all, never showed any aggression towards other dogs, but when his owners walked him he was like a whirling dervish & would take on any dog any side(& any number of dogs)at any time. He was the wrong dog in a lovely home, they ended up rehoming him to a more rural home with a very experienced terrier owning family.

LOL, you're probably right Moonmaiden, he doesn't!

Yes, we knew what we were getting into when we got a Patterdale - I know the book you mean, we have it and its the only one written!  We got her as a puppy, at 6 weeks actually (possibly part of her problem).  She came from a hunt kennels in Cambridgeshire, from good working stock (perhaps an error there too).  4 days a week she goes to work with my husband, where she has free run of 50 acres and flushes out and kills rats and rabbits.  Never a fox to my knowledge, but for sure she would scrap without hesitation!

She runs with two other dogs at work, standard poodles.  She isn;t aggressive towards them exactly, but she is very short tempered with them and regularly tears chunks of fur out of them with little provocation.

3 days a week, she is more of a family pet, and is a typical heat seeking, affectionate terrier, lovely with most people.  I am the only one to walk her on those three days, she runs with me as well.

We did everything we could to socialise her at an early age, or we thought we did - she lived with another adult patterdale from day one, for the first 8 months, but she wasn't the best role model its true.  They just played roughly all the time.  I took her to puppy classes, but she found the bigger puppies overwhelming and was terrified.  I took her to more open spaces to greet other older, calmer dogs, but she was always very frightened.  I thought I was doing the right thing by not offering verbal or physical reassurance at these times, but just staying close, making sure other dogs didn't crowd her etc.  For her first 15 months or so everything was okay - mostly - and she played nicely with other dogs.  The she hit adolescence and bam, every dog - especially little ones - became a target.

Just further to your final paragraph, its true we are not experienced dog owners, let alone terrier owners.  We really believed we were offering a lively terrier a great life, we weren't under any illusions.  I think my husband quite liked the idea of having such a feisty dog, but he's not the one walking her is he.  I'm quite passive, which isn't helping her, but whilst my husband can control her with just a firm word at work, out in public with dogs she doesn't know, she is the same with him (on the, erm, two or three ocasions he has walked her alone in the last 2 years)

Hm Puppy training at the vets by any chance ?? I actively dislike "vet puppy parties"

Is she spayed ? If she isn't it could be her hormones as she goes through her second"Kevinette"stage.

No, puppy classes at quite a reputable establishment - but hopelessly oversubscribed, and with little in the way of one to one tuition!  She hated it, I refused to take her back after the 3rd one.

Yep she was spayed at the age of 15 months, 2 months or so after her first season (she is now 2 years old)

Right now she is curled up happily beside me on a little beanbag as I work.  Well, alright, typing on a dog forum instead of work. :)

If you feel like using another behaviourist have a look at the apbc website. I dont know where you are in the country but the lady I used travels quite a way ie oxfordshire direction to surrey and kent for example.
I like you find all my efforts at being relaxed and not transfering my anxiety to my dog go out the window if I see another dog, one thing tat helped me was my lovely dog walker who knows her stuff and she does not get anxious ( made of sterner stuff than me !) she start working with him without me around then I joined her with him and we worked together with him and know I am more confident because I have been around him when things have gone well have more confidence and less anxiety -- result an improved dog. Now I know that may be slightly unorthodox but that and the apbc trainer is definiutly improving things. btw she also gives advise around what is practical for you and your dog not some pie in the sky ideal which I have had before therefore making you feel that you shouln't even have a dog let alone the one you have ruined hurrmph!.
If you want any further details of the trainer I used please pm me
I have also been advised previously to use the "dominate the dog method" and the dooways and not let him upstairs etc. I found it impossible I have a family  of teenager and their friends coming and going trying to get everyone to be consisitent was impossible and also he is not a small dog and I am only 5ft 3. I was getting a headache and sorethroat from all the stern NO's i was suppose to be using not to mention needing to be glued to his side 24/7. There is definitly a better way not necessarily easier or quicker but at least one I can live with.
and so can my dog and is slowly getting some results. dominance pah ! who is that furry creature rolling on its back for a tummy rub at my feet !

But I'm frustrated that we are making no progress with her attitude towards other dogs.  She has to spend all her time on a lead, yet other owners allow their dogs to wander up to her off-lead, which spooks her and sets her off into lunging/barking/snarling/tasmanian devil mode (no matter "protective" stance I try to take). 

You need some more practical help on this part as this will undo a lot of the good work you are doing.
I believe The Cautious Canine by Pat McConnell makes some suggestions re this (it's a booklet not too expensive). I can check for you if you want.

Is the trainer and second behaviourist one and the same or different? :)

What sort of things are done in the class with the rehab?

Some dogs can be overwhelmed, the person in charge has to be very careful. Are they all offlead? does he/she understand stress in dogs?

If your dog is actually getting worse, you need to work out why - is it the classes, is it the off lead dogs upsetting her?

I know of someone in the Hants area but not seen her work ever; also, I'd be surprised if she was into CM. Is this person actually into CM or just NILIF type methods? as if they were really into CM they'd be suggesting pinning.rolling  etc in their classes I'd suspect....

Lindsay
x

> I get people looking at me sympathetically and asking if she's a rescue dog.  I just got a bit tetchy with some poor well-meaning lady who asked if she was a resuce, snapping at her that No, I got this dog as a puppy so yes it IS all my fault.
>

susie, this made me LOL.  I know you probably didn't mean it for our entertainment but I had days like that previously and even now I regularly have to ask people to call their dog back/get it under control as my staff is 'feisty' or to put it another way - would take the face off any dog that looks at her the wrong way.  for staffy's it is their purpose and in my bitch it didn't manifest itself until she was 2 and like your dog she had some memorable devil dog times.  this was disapointing for me and not great for the image of the breed.  Thankfully I don't look like a ned!

I have accepted that she is a bit of a terror when she wants to and even though she will be ok 90% of the time I put strategies in place 100% of the time to control it.  I let my dog off the lead but she knows that if there is any other dog on the horizon she comes back to me for a treat and to get her lead on.  People must think I am heading into battle as I have been known to shout across the park "...lead on!" and she pelts back to me full pace to get her lead on.  I am 100% confident in her recall but as she is 6 now this wasn't an overnight thing.

Anyway despite the waffling, I just wanted to say to you hang in there.  the day will come when it all falls into place and you both reach an unspoken mutual agreement about the way things will be.

Hi Susie, I would agree with those that suggested finding another trainer and one who uses just reward-based methods not dominance methods which are obviously not working.
I found a book called Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt a great help(I believe she also has a dvd) with my sheltie as she was barking at things that unnerved her,the Look at That game seemed to work well with her and reduced her stress levels,basically its just teaching the dog to look at things that would normally scare them for a titbit (you do need a food motivated dog for some of these games).It might be worth checking this out.
Good luck with her.

As a fellow Patterdale owner I can sympathise, because as a breed they can be evil with other dogs, but it is manageable, honestly. Personally, I don't think that trying to force a Patterdale (or any terrier really) ever works. Punishment has no effect on them, but bribery can work well.

I think you wrote before that she's not too interested in food, which makes it more difficult but there is perhaps something that she really loves. My two will sell their souls for a piece of garlic sausage - makes my hands smelly, but if it works.....

Sorry, but this trainer sounds as though she really doesn't understand terriers. Is there a chance that you could get yours to accept one other dog to start with? Maybe walking together on the lead, not so close that she can attack, but close enough that she is aware of the dog - and of you having a relaxed conversation with the owner. As said previously body language is very important, especially with terriers. Once she can accept one dog on a regular basis in a controlled situation, you can maybe find a different one and repeat the process. If you can bribe her with food then I'd offer her a reward at the end of the walk - it's counterproductive to keep offering her food as a distraction.

Sorry to keep harking on about it - but terriers ARE different, but they can be trained, it's just that sometimes you need to be as devious and intelligent as they are in order to do it :)

Thanks everyone for the further advice and support - sorry, have been away from laptop until now!

Thanks especially for the offers of new trainer contacts.  I am in Hants, right where it joins with Surrey (i.e Alton-Farnham).  Yes the second behaviourist/trainer are one and the same - I had one chap from the Hampshire region first time around, who was very pleasant and clearly knew what he was talking about, but he appeared to be using a "one size fits all" approach, and was not keen to respond when I continued to have problems.  The second lady has been recommended by my vet, and whilst in conversation she has mentioned that she is a CM supporter, so far - in 3 private lessons with my dog, and 5 training classes I have observed without - there has been no physical contact (the infamous CM "bite"), no pinning and no alpha rolling (*suppresses a snort*).  When my dog bit me (mildly and in a flash of temper) last weekend, our trainer did say that under those circumstances I should have instantly "scruffed" her.  I've never done that, but my vet has scruffed her before.

Lincolnimp it is very heartening to know that some people do consider terriers to be "different"!!  My husband is always saying that we need someone who knows about terriers, but I can't find any kind of specialist.  My trainer simply says that we should not stereotype by breed - a bady behaved dog is a badly behaved dog, regardless of type, and it can only be influenced by its environment, not its breeding.

Hmm.

Anyway, I took her for her session this morning, and all went very well.  I had to put the muzzle on her in the car first, and although I thought she would tear up the car trying to remove the muzzle, particularly when she saw our "stooge" Parsons terrier outside, she was actually perfectly calm from the moment I put it on.

Always moving the dogs slowly, and generally putting the other dog slightly ahead, we heeled them along the bridlepath together for about ten minutes, with the trainer walking between us and Nellie wearing her muzzle.  The other dog was quite calm, obedient and easily controlled by the handler.  The trainer told me not to use a high-pitched voice when giving commands, but a calm and low voice throughout.

Nellie wanted to sniff the other dog, but she made no sound whatsoever (very unusual).  The dogs were then allowed - first the other terrier, then Nell - to go to the end of their leads (as opposed to being at heel). I had to correct Nell lightly (just a light tweak on the lead/harness) if she started to close the gap between them, but she barely even looked at him!

We came back to the yard and did a few exercises side by side, still with the trainer between us - heel, step aways etc, and the other dog did a few off-lead recalls, including heading towards Nellie (when I would stand in front of her).  She was interested in him and watched him closely, but her usual aggressive posturing was strangely absent.

There was a point when she suddenly went rigid and started growling, but she was looking straight past the other dog at something invisible to us!  The trainer simply told me to regain her attention and pop her into sit - she was resistant for a few seconds, but the moment passed.

We finished by doing the heeling and step-aways WITHOUT the benefit of the trainer between us, so there was only one person between the dogs.  We also swapped sides a few times.  Nellie behaved impeccably throught, the contrary little minx. :)

I still feel that this is all very well in a controlled situation, but out in public things won't be so calm, and other dogs are not always under control.  The trainer pointed out that the idea of the lesson was to show Nellie that being around other dogs is not necessarily a bad thing, and that she does not need to behave aggressively and noisily to keep another dog at bay - that I am quite capable of doing that for her.

We're going to need lots more repetition I think.  In the meantime, what do I do when walking her in public and we have to pass other dogs?  I can't always avoid them 100%.  I can get her to focus on a tug toy (although I'll def try the garlic sausage!!), that is a good distraction for her, but then she bops around me for the entire walk trying to get me to play with the toy!

Is this a good idea in the interim, distracting with a toy when I don't have the benefit of a trainer by my side?  I never seem to be able to ask my trainer the question, the lesson are quite intense, and when we finish there is another client waiting to start.

I can recommed Scallywags www.scallywagsdogs.com I've been going to them for years and if you can get a one to one with Russ he's fad but they are in South Hampshire btween Southampton and Portsmouth.

That's just the sort of thing I was thinking of - although perhaps in a slightly more informal setting.

Is there a chance that you could get together with the Parson and his owner for a few walks? Having a dog that she's already comfortable with would make all the difference - and you would be more relaxed as you know that the handler has her dog under control.

The behaourist I am using has put our plan together to include him walking with a couple of calm friendly dogs that he is comfortable with. After that we are slowly building in other dogs.  only at his comfort distance and aim to have him feel comfortable eventually with about 10 different dogs (not all the same time). Her view is that when you get up to that kind of number dogs generally start excepting most dogs as ok and relax. Obviously that is a rough guide and varies from dog to dog but somewhere to aim for.
Infact we have now got about 8 dogs he can meet in the park nose to nose comfortably. that has taken about 3 months
Mind we arn't home yet and  dont expect to get there in a hurry. I have made a couple of mistakes thinking he was ready for the next step and found he was not. on one occasion with a barking snarling westie that the others ignored my dog did for a few moments and then couldn't deal with it any more and went in to major mugging mode. No harm done fortunately but I was very annoyed with myself for misjudging.

Hi Susie72
I have evry sympathy with you as owning terriers know what this can be like. Only one of mine is like it or should i say WAS like it but she was a puppy i kept and didnt do much socialisation with her as she had 4 other dogs keeping her entertained, i also took her to ringcraft early on but realise it wasn't a good class and i was way too serious about it all.

i tried a behavourist who was good and we have kept up some of the stuff he suggested, i also went on a good manners course with her which has helped loads. She used to lunge and screach at other dogs when she was on a lead but i have kept up the 'leave it' command and reward reward reward when she stops and looks at me. I find though if i let her off lead with other dogs she is no problem at all - runs up in an assertive manner but usually sniffs and comes straight back. If her mum is with her then they can get a bit more vocal. Something about being on a lead seems to make things worse so unless other owners put their dogs on a lead i dont bother.

it has now got that if i walk her alone and we see a person, another dog or a bike then she sits, looks at me and waits for click and treat. I go through loads of sausages and have to click and treat very frequently but that is so much better than a screaming dog on the end of a lead. she still has her moments but dont we all! she has also improved in the house with visitors and seems generally calmer, not sure if its cos we have moved and i haven't allowed her to 'claim' one room.

poor you!my 2 border collie litter sisters were a pair of absolute embarrassing nightmares,iused to come home from training classes in tears many times and know the feeling of defeat well.ive no magic answer exept keep plodding on with the training.my two gradually improved,until ihad hardly any real problems.i only have one left now,her sister died in feb,aged thirteen and a half.it wasnt long enough!i wish you luck!

Susie,
You've had really sound advice, particularly from Moonmaiden, Lincolnpimp and Lindsay. Working terriers can be very different and challenging and you don't get more working than your type. Just as working strains like working Border Collies need an outlet for all that they have been selectively bred for, so do other working breeds. Unfortunately your lass has been bred to fight and to kill very much larger prey than herself- she was made to do this and to be very single-minded in going about her work. With the help of a very good behaviourist, and one that really understands working terriers, you need to figure out some smart ways to channel what she is already programmed to do into more "acceptable" behaviours. Muzzling her around other dogs is a good idea for now, because you need to be able to relax a bit in order to feed her the right messages and begin to change her mind about how to behave around other dogs/animals. Anyone in your situation would find it almost impossible to relax.

Do stop blaming yourself and do stop listening to people who advise you to dominate and confront your dog, with any working terrier worth its salt there is always a chance that they will answer back at some point, they are not made to back down and the odd one literally does want to kill everything in sight!