>and if you had been able to sell the dogs would you have sold them and tried again for the bitch?

No. There was a bitch in the litter that I wanted to keep, but I knew it would be insane to keep three puppies! I had a very nice person who wanted a bitch, so common sense meant that she had to go - and my bitch would have been too old for a third litter. (I'd kept a bitch from her first litter but she turned out to be unsuitable for breeding from, which is why I had the next litter. It was my last chance for a bitch to carry on my line. One of the dogs is very nice, so it's a shame nobody wanted him.)

I lose a stone in weight with worry with every litter - mainly worrying about whether the people who seem so nice are genuinely going to be good owners. There's no way I could go through it without knowing that at least one puppy (the one I keep!) was going to have a good home.

Plus, of course, if your litter doesn't have the right puppy for you to keep and you sell all the pups and wait a couple of years (only fair on the bitch) to have another litter, you're still breeding a litter with the intention of keeping one - not with the intention of selling them all.

> Anyone who deliberately breeds away from the breed standards in order to satisfy the pet market is not being a responsible breeder.
>

Rubbish! You may not like long coats but a lot of people do and I along with a lot of other breeders take great care over our dogs. We do all the health tests available and only breed from sound healthy dogs. My dogs along with a lot of other breeders dogs are fit and healthy,are able to work if required and apart from the length of coat are a lot closer to the old style dog than the roach backed,cow hocked defomities that are in the breed rings now. If I had a £1 every time I had a potential puppy owner tell me how they think the dogs that are being shown now are horrible and they would not have one if it was being given away I would have quite a healthy bank balance.

> If I had a £1 every time I had a potential puppy owner tell me how they think the dogs that are being shown now are horrible and they would not have one if it was being given away I would have quite a healthy bank balance

Whatever at least my GSDs looked like GSDs & not Teddy Bears & It's interesting that your bitch has the high hip score has a high score in her pedigree & a good few without any health tests. There's no excuse for having any untested dogs in a five generation pedigree as the hip scoring scheme for GSD has been running for over 30 years !! Using a stud dog that only has one dog scored on it's mother's pedigree isn't responsible either.

. Dogs with uneven hip scores ie 2-10 or 4-14 should also NOT be bred from as these dogs are more likely to throw puppies with HD

Can you let me know where this"fact"came from ??

If I had a £1 every time I had a potential puppy owner tell me how they think the dogs that are being shown now are horrible and they would not have one if it was being given away I would have quite a healthy bank balance.

And most of MY puppies go to previous GSD owners who now will not want one at ALL, none of them have said anything about show GSDs and in fact none of them have been after anything but a dog to work. Funny they feel a need to change breed when there are fantastic breeders like you around.

:-O

This thread seems to be degenerating into personal sniping. Please can we keep to the general topic & not get into an argument about either particular breeds or particular dogs owned by other members. If it continues like this, then this thread will be locked.

Thanks

> If you are breeding sound dogs of good  quality which are successful in the showring or good working dogs then people are going to see them and maybe would like one like it.

> Not everyone can keep a dog every year so you might only breed every  3-4 years. What are the people who want a dog from your lines to do? Not everyone can wait 3-4 years for a pup.

dogmad1234 - In your first statement you are probably describing the type of breeder that has been consistently breeding true to type and or working ability.  This type of breeder doesn't get those results overnight so will probably have some quality dogs of all ages out there and doing well in their chosen field (many gundog breeders will have dual purpose dogs too).

With regards to the waiting periods - if someone was very keen to have a dog from this kennel they will probably be willing to wait.  Alternatively there is that pool of dogs from their own kennel the breeder can refer you to.  They may be able to point you in the direction of a planned litter from a daughter or grand-daughter or they may have a successful stud dog that is doing well.  One thing for sure is that a good breeder will know a lot of quality dogs and can probably tell you where some of the bits you like come from - who is throwing great coats, good fronts, super heads, lovely temperaments, hunting ability etc.  This is invaluable information when you are looking for a particular type of dog and I'll bet they are also very clued up on who is getting what results on hips and other health tests too.  Several breeders I know have amazing archive material on the dogs behind their foundation stock as well as a lot of photographs and data from many of the current successful dogs.

Several breeders I know have amazing archive material on the dogs behind their foundation stock as well as a lot of photographs and data from many of the current successful dogs.

I find even pet buyers (using "pet" as a fairly loose term as my main breed don't go as pure pets, not like many other breeds can do) are very interested in the background of their puppy and love it when you can tell them about lots of dogs in the line. They are also particularly interested in hearing about the longlived ones -even if show results and working abilities doesn't matter (but to most it seem to make a good story to tell their friends!) the longevity most definitely does interest them. :)

> For those of you who breed because you want a pup for yourself, do you always get what you want in each litter?

Yes.

Litter No.1 - Sh.Ch. bitch & RCC winning bitch
Litter No.2 - Sh.Ch. bitch (With JW) & RCC winning dog
Litter No.3 - Sh.Ch. bitch (With ShCM), working test first prize winner (With Nat.Apt too) & RCC dog

Because I sat at shows and looked & learned, studied lines, did as much research on siblings of winners etc. I'm delighted with the wins but I'm also delighted because they have left me with wonderful temperaments.

Just out of curiosity and aimed at all or those who might know, has it ever happened that a non show breeder has produced a pup that has been purchased by somebody who then decided to show and said pup went on to do quite well and I don't mean stunning all out champion but one that was considered to be of good standard.

I wonder if there's 2 types of 'good' breeder out there, one being the show breeder who obviously does all health checks/screening etc and seriously considers 'lines' and what they want from a litter to continue their line and the other that does not show but still does health checks etc considers lines and wants to produce pups as close to standard as they can.

I'm sure that there must be as there are exceptions to every rule but the percentage of possibility must be much less.  How would someone not involved in the dog world know (as in have seen) the dogs on their own bitch's pedigree let alone those in the stud dog's pedigree?  Without knowing these dogs, a pedigree is just a collection of names.  I suppose they might have seen some ancestors if their breeder mates their own dogs and bitches together?

How can someone who has only see a few of a breed know which are good quality?  When any of us look at a new breed, they all look the same! :) :)  It takes quite some time to be aware of sometimes very minor differences that differenciate between an OK dog and a good one.

Grandparents can often be more influential in the pups' quality (temperament health and type) than the parents.  I suspect that very few puppy producers have seen their own bitch's sire (in fact I hope this is that case as a breeder's own stud dog is rarely the best mate for their own bitches) let alone the 4 grandparents, so don't really know what they are like to produce at all.

Those who don't show/work their dogs and are not involved with the dog world will only know a very small number of their breed and so if they think that they produce quality pups, they are possibly deluding themselves.

This gives an idea of the difference between a responsible breeder and a puppy producer.
http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/breedercomparison.htm

Good link WestCoast

One thing that isn't accurate, for this country at least, is that backyard breeders charge less - sadly they don't.

Also BYB's or pet breeders are often pretty clued up on which 'dog' to publicise in their pets pedigree.  There are some stud dogs that are all over their breed and as a regular all breed champ show winner one in particular pops up all over the place.  If you do a search on one of the big gundog winners alone his progeny has now been crossed with different breeds too.  Such a shame.

I dont know which gundog winner you are talking about but ive heard one in particular is letting absolutely anyone use him at quite a large fee so it wouldnt surprise me if his lines did end up in cross breeds (which would probably be sold for quite a price due to having him in the pedigree)

I know in Irish Setters we have had a couple in the past go BIS at Crufts, and they pop up in a large number of pedigrees - ive lost count of the amount of pet people that have boasted to me that their dogs have Crufts BIS winners in their pedigree, usually 4th/5th generation - and their dogs only just resemble the breed because of the amount of outcrossing due to be bred as "pets".

My first Irish is "just a pet" but he would have been pick of litter if it hadnt been for the fact he only has one testicle, I was so pleased the other day, someone at an agility show commented that he must be from very good breeding as he is so stunning.  Its rare that you see a nice looking Irish outside of a show because there are so many pet bred ones now, also the fact that so many people neuter and ruin the look of the dog (but thats another thread !!)

>> My puppies are good quality or I would not have bred them.
> Yes I can explain all the above to any prospective owner

Lorraine - what would happen if, two or three years down the line, your puppy buyer could no longer keep the puppy you had bred.   Would you take him back?

>Just out of curiosity and aimed at all or those who might know, has it ever happened that a non show breeder has produced a pup that has been purchased by somebody who then decided to show and said pup went on to do quite well and I don't mean stunning all out champion but one that was considered to be of good standard.

I know of one.

A neighbour has a dog that was bred by someone who, by her own admission apparently, was only breeding a litter to produce 'pets'...the breeder hadn't even registered an affix.  Neighbour's daughter decided to have a crack at showing.  Not only is the dog now a champion but he was Crufts Best of Breed (2007 if I recall correctly) :) 

I don't think you get many like him in a dozen, though.

> Lorraine - what would happen if, two or three years down the line, your puppy buyer could no longer keep the puppy you had bred.   Would you take him back?

Hi Lokis mom,yes I would have him/her back and rehome to suitable people as would my stud dog owner.

>Not everyone can wait 3-4 years for a pup.

I know i couldn't! I'm far too impatient :( Of course if i had no choice as there was only ONE breeder that bred the breed i wanted then i would have no choice,but i imagine that wouldn't happen very often.As I'm not interested in showing I'm sure i would be able to find a responsible breeder that wouldn't have a 4 year waiting list.

After reading a couple of posts on this thread i am now finally aware of what the term 'Purist' means :(
And breeders such as this would be equally as off putting to me as a BYB ,obviously for opposite reasons,but still....

Not everyone can wait 3-4 years for a pup.

In recent years I've had very few pups available but I've been able to suggest other breeders who either have my lines or share my values to send puppy enquiries to.

>but I've been able to suggest other breeders who either have my lines or share my values to send puppy enquiries to.

Yes,that's how i found my last dog.Most breeders know the business of others in their breed. I think waiting years and years would be a little extreme,maybe??

Most breeders know the business of others in their breed.
But that can only be true of those who are involved in the dog world, whichever area.  Otherwise contacts are very limited.  :)

Touche' :)

> Yes,that's how i found my last dog.Most breeders know the business of others in their breed. I think waiting years and years would be a little extreme,maybe??

Not if you want the bloodlines, health, type etc it isn't. For Roodee I waited 4 years for Wukee I waited over 20 for the right litter from the right bloodlines !

>> Yes,that's how i found my last dog.Most breeders know the business of others in their breed. I think waiting years and years would be a little extreme,maybe??
> Not if you want the bloodlines, health, type etc it isn't. For Roodee I waited 4 years for Wukee I waited over 20 for the right litter from the right bloodlines

Exactly.. I have waited 5 years on my Flatcoat.. and still waiting.. after researching for all those years, I know exactly the bloodlines I want.. I just have to wait for the right litter..

as would my stud dog owner.

Does that mean that you use the same stud dog or stud dogs from the same kennel all the time roscoebabe? 

> I would have him/her back and rehome to suitable people as would my stud dog owner

One of the biggest critisisms of show breeders is of the narrowing of the gene pool and selecting for specific traits but at least we have the whole country to choose from not just "my stud dog owner".
I dont have " a stud dog owner" I travel as far as I need to to get the right, healthiest and at present the least congested in pedigree for my bitch - no matter who owns the dog.
When I originally stated that I flag up " selling whole litters" as a potential indication of a profit driven breeder, I omitted to add that another good indicator is one who always or nearly always uses their own dog or that of a friend or family member.The said dogs only great merit is his close proximity to the bitch.
A glance at the KC breed record supplement..a record of all puppies registered in that quarter, mass puppy breeders usually have the same sire listed as the father of all their litters...shudder to think of the consequenses of this fact

Dogs with uneven hip scores ie 2-10 or 4-14 should also NOT be bred from as these dogs are more likely to throw puppies with HD.

Roscoebabe, I'm also interested to know where this information has come from because it completely the opposite to what Malcolm Willis told me.

Can I just ask - if responsible breeders only breed when they want to keep a puppy, where are all the puppy buyers going to get their puppies from?  In popular breeds there simply wouldn't be enough puppies to supply the demand, so giving a greater share to byb and puppy farms.  What is wrong with repeating a litter that has produced quality puppies when there is demand for them from 'pet' homes even if you don't intend on keeping one.

What is the point in repeating a litter - it doesn't increase the gene pool at all.

> I think waiting years and years would be a little extreme,maybe??

I waited almost 2 years for a puppy and we wanted her as a pet. The breeder was recommended to me and I was prepared to wait however long it took to get a puppy with a good temperament that suited my family needs. I may have been able to get a pup quicker and closer (12hr drive each way to collect each pup) but we stuck with the breeder who was recommended to us and gave us so much information and help with the breed. We decided to have a go at showing her and got hooked so went back to the same breeder for a dog to show prepared for another long wait but luckily she had a litter planned and we didn't wait as long and I would go back to the same breeder again no matter how long I have to wait for a pup.

it doesn't increase the gene pool at all.

So the only reason to breed is to increase the gene pool?

Then who should people go to when they want a pet?

>So the only reason to breed is to increase the gene pool?

Limiting the gene pool is certainly a reason not to breed!

>Then who should people go to when they want a pet?

Breed rescue or general rescue have pups as well as adults.

Breed rescue or general rescue have pups as well as adults.

So you should only breed if you are keeping a puppy?  and as there are not enough puppies to supply the demand for puppies as pets, then anyone who misses out should get a rescue?!?!

No wonder puppy farmers and byb are being kept in business!

Can I just ask - if responsible breeders only breed when they want to keep a puppy, where are all the puppy buyers going to get their puppies from?

There will never be a shortage! Even in my breed with less than 5 active show breeders there are always pups enough available for buyers. In big breeds you can have thousands of responsible breeders. With each breeder wanting to keep one pup, there will always be a lot left over. Not many litters consist of just one puppy. :)

>as there are not enough puppies to supply the demand for puppies as pets

Yes there are - that's why rescues are full to bursting! It's just that people aren't prepared to either wait, even a short while of a few weeks - not too much to ask for an animal that might be with you for the next 15 years! - or travel more than a few miles for one. There are always hundreds of puppies available at any one time, and many which end up as unwanted in the rescues because of the over-production.

as there are not enough puppies to supply the demand for puppies as pets

I really meant well bred puppies.

The rescues are full to bursting with poorly breed, pet bred, byb and puppy farmer bred dogs and puppies.  Having helped with rescue for a number of years, it is very very rare to get a well bred puppy in.

I agree that people should be prepared to wait and/or travel. I was just curious as to why people that are obviously trying to promote good breeding practices should also want to restrict the numbers of those well bred puppies available to pet homes.  It seems like cutting your nose off to spite your face, or is it that just the only the minority can own a well bred pup as a pet?

I was just curious as to why people that are obviously trying to promote good breeding practices should also want to restrict the numbers of those well bred puppies available to pet homes.

But they're NOT! Lots of really good breeders are finding it hard to get enough really good homes -breeding MORE just to sell would be nothing but lunacy.

But they're NOT! Lots of really good breeders are finding it hard to get enough really good homes -breeding MORE just to sell would be nothing but lunacy.

In the current climate yes, I was talking generally and tbh, in my breed (a popular one) there is no problem finding homes for well bred pups even in the current financial times.  And I did say in popular breeds.

One could argue that breeding any even if to keep one would be lunacy at the moment as it is uncommon to only have a singleton - the breeder still has to find homes for the rest of the litter!

One could argue that breeding any even if to keep one would be lunacy at the moment as it is uncommon to only have a singleton - the breeder still has to find homes for the rest of the litter!

There are still good homes out there for well bred pups.  I had one dog puppy (I wanted a bitch) and had 8 lovely pet homes wanting him.  You know the sort, recently lost their oldie etc. :(  All of these families wanted to be directed to a good breeder and were prepared to wait and travel.  None would have considered a byb or someone producing pups to sell.  I find that the best homes are very knowledgable these days about what sort of breeder they are looking for. :)  But the ones who just want a puppy NOW will buy from anyone who has pups available as long as they four legs a head and a tail.... :(

> No wonder puppy farmers and byb are being kept in business!

Ah the old 'Chicken or egg' dilemma.

I'm sorry if I'm not prepared to be responsible for fulfilling the wishes of Joe Public - they are my puppies and I'm not prepared to crank up just to supply the pet market.
Perhaps if everyone was ethical and less profit - fill the niche - seeing an opportunity to make pin money - driven...then E***Z wouldn't be listing 20,000 puppies and adult dogs.

Once one had to put their name on a breeders list and WAIT now at a click of a mouse you can pop one in your 'basket' and it can be delivered, any breed any age any colour...instantly.
What came first the demand or the ready availabilty?

I, for one, want no part of breeding for profit and if each of us give our best effort to redress this trend..we may just educate the public.

In the current climate yes, I was talking generally and tbh, in my breed (a popular one) there is no problem finding homes for well bred pups even in the current financial times.  And I did say in popular breeds

So what on earth IS your point? There are enough wellbred puppies to be had in popular breeds, and I told you in my breed with less than 5 active show breeders there is never a problem for anyone to get hold of a puppy --the waiting time is only about 6 months max now and it's more common for us breeders to get stuck with en extra pup rather than not have enough. So what breeds are all these wellbred puppies that you think we lack because responsible breeders only breed when we want something to keep? I just don't get it.

So what on earth IS your point?

No need to be harsh!

My point is that I don't understand why one poster was castigated for, god forbid! having a litter when they didn't keep a puppy, the fact that these were quality, health tested puppies didn't seem to matter. 

It would appear from the comments that it is a closed shop and only a few can have a well bred pup.  I assumed that people wanted to promote good breeding practices not restrictive ones - perhaps I was wrong.

I'm sorry if I'm not prepared to be responsible for fulfilling the wishes of Joe Public - they are my puppies and I'm not prepared to crank up just to supply the pet market.  Everyone is free to do what they feel right, but why castigate someone because they have had a litter that they didn't keep a puppy from.  I'm sure there are a number of very grateful puppy buyers that are grateful that this breeder did.

JenP

> I really meant well bred puppies

This is where it gets tricky - the definition of well bred.  For some people it's all about breed standard, for others it appears to be simply about the quality of care provided to the puppies and the puppy packs they get sent away with!

> I was just curious as to why people that are obviously trying to promote good breeding practices should also want to restrict the numbers of those well bred puppies available to pet homes.

I don't see the link you are attempting to make here - one does NOT follow the other.  The debate is not a serious attempt to significantly restrict numbers in any way rather it is an effort to encourage puppy buyers to raise their expectations, thereby forcing puppy producers to improve their standards.  If puppy buyers always aim high and refuse to buy from farmed dogs or stock that isn't health tested, or with dogs that are significantly adrift of the breed standard then the lower end of the market can be eliminated.  Sadly they are often catering to the 'I want one now' consumer.

Potential puppy owners should expect to wait for the right dog.  A living being shouldn't be decided upon in the morning and bought home later that same day.  Some dog owners, or potential owners, simply cannot recognise a puppy farmer when the evidence is staring them in the face - we had someone on here recently that bought an older ex breeding bitch from one such person.  She finally admitted she'd made a mistake and learnt the hard way.  Where is the harm in pointing people to the very best - at least they will learn what to look for.  Many of those people may later decide to compromise but it should be an informed choice.  As I think we've already mentioned in this thread many of the show breeders will have an extensive network they can put a potential owner in touch with not least their approved owners they will have lifted endorsements for and whose breeding plans they have helped arrange.

Of course there will be some 'good enough' pairings in the pet market but unless managed by a breed specialist these may be accidental rather than planned.  Many dogs are not really suitable for breeding and stud dogs should be chosen with care and good advice.  If we cannot quickly educate all the potential family pet breeders then lets, at least, educate the buyers.  An informed buyer will, over time, influence the market they buy in.

The debate is not a serious attempt to significantly restrict numbers in any way

Not the whole debate, but the comments that one should only breed a litter if keeping one is restrictive. 

The other side of the coin, of course, is that the glut of pet bred puppies fulfill demand for those who would not be considered suitable owners by responsible breeders. It's not just the breeder who needs to come up to scratch!

M.

Another thought aimed at all, would you say that it is justified to breed from a dog/bitch that although not good enough to show due to some minor fault comes from excellent lines and is paired to a partner of equally good lines, all health screening done of course.

>the comments that one should only breed a litter if keeping one is restrictive. 

I'd disagree. With the average litter size for dogs as a whole being 8 puppies, and the breeder plans to keep one, then that's 7 available to buyers. What's restrictive about that?

It is my choice to keep girls only - I have a busy family life of which my dogs are an integral part - and I just wouldn't want the added stress of keeping a male with my girls.... so if I had a litter of dogs only (not unusual in my breed where 2-5 pups is a pretty average litter size) I would have to sell them all.
Infact, I had a litter earlier this year of 5 bitches but I didn't feel any were an improvement on the bitches I already had inspite of both dam and sire being good quality (sire a show dog - both parents health tested). So, I let them all go (shock horror) and bought a bitch in instead. She has the most wonderful pedigree in terms of health and confirmation and I am thoroughly delighted and firmly believe she will be an asset to my lines and hopefully good enough to show. As well as being a much loved PET.
Often show breeders do keep a pup back from each litter, but often let them go at 6 months or older having run them on and decided they are not good enough.
Obviously, I breed to improve my line - and I breed for ME nobody else - but that doesn't mean I have to keep one from every litter I breed (1, maybe 2 litters a year).

No need to be harsh!

I'm not -I'm throwing my hands in the air looking confused and not understanding at all, but the confused smiley doesn't exist any more I don't think?

My point is that I don't understand why one poster was castigated for, god forbid! having a litter when they didn't keep a puppy, the fact that these were quality, health tested puppies didn't seem to matter.

The fact the parents were health tested can of course always be verified easily, but whether they were QUALITY or not none of us can know -including the breeder as anyone who does not show regularly simply will not know. We all think our dogs are the best and it isn't until you have shown regularly for some time that you start to learn to tell small differences. And it is by ignoring the small details when breeding that over a period of time a breed can (and do) start to look entirely different -and as I said before the other day, surely the pet buyers deserve to get a dog that look like their chosen breed -having met many that expressed regret at their dogs not growing up to look the way they had expected. Another example: a few months ago at dog club I was working my fully adult Papillon bitch, and another lady was working her not quite fully grown male Chihuahua. The Chi was BIGGER than my dog. The lady had wanted a really small dog which is why she picked the breed. In many breeds you can tell whether the dogs came from show breeders or pet breeders just by looking at them. For instance Chocolate Labradors with pale yellow eyes are extremely likely to have been bred by pet breeders (and you see a LOT of dogs like this). The pet breeders don't know what to aim for, or how to do it, so the look of the breed changes.

It would appear from the comments that it is a closed shop and only a few can have a well bred pup

You keep saying this and I keep asking the same question -what makes you say that? What breeds do you know of personally where it isn't possible to get hold of a wellbred pup from a show breeder within a year or less? I don't think the problem you are talking about exists. Who has said anything about NOT selling the excess pups as pets? It's very rare for an entire litter to all go to show homes, the majority of almost everyone's litters WILL be destined as pets. That's always been the same.

>I had a litter earlier this year of 5 bitches but I didn't feel any were an improvement on the bitches I already had inspite of both dam and sire being good quality

If there had been a bitch that you thought was good enough for you, would you then have sold her and bought in another one?

In other words were you breeding the litter because you hoped for one for yourself - or were you planning to sell them all anyway?