I've recently had lots of requests for puppies from my two young girls,  9 enquiries at the moment, some requests have come via CD and some via doggy friends that like my girls and want a pup of theirs. They're too young to breed at the moment (16 months and 15 months) but next year would be a better age.

I'm not prepared to consider breeding unless they have good results from hip and eye screening and also find a stud that I feel would compliment them. What do you think?

The first question to ask is why do you want to breed them?  Have they anything to offer to the gene pool or will they just be producing pet puppies?  Have you shown them so you know that they are good examples of the breed?  That would also give you critiques so that you know what to look for in a stud dog.  Were they eye tested at 7 weeks?  Lots and lots of questions.... :)

And you'll be surprised how requests from friends and family disappear once pups are born. :(  If they really wanted a puppy then they would go out and find one.

I saw lots of lovely Shelties at National Working & Pastoral the other weekend. :)

> I'm not prepared to consider breeding unless they have good results from hip and eye screening and also find a stud that I feel would compliment them. What do you think

Why only clinical tests ? Shouldn't you be doing the DNA test first ? No point in having a good hip score & clinically clear eyes, if your bitches are CEA carriers or worse "go rights"affected & then you need to find a dog that is also DNA tested normal so that even if your bitch is a carrier, no affected puppies are bred.

Nobody should consider a litter just because there are potential buyers -that should be on the list of requirements yes, but lower down -my reasons for breeding would never be anything but wanting to keep a pup back for showing or work as well as being able to offer something to the breed. 

westcoast wrote "Have they anything to offer to the gene pool or will they just be producing pet puppies?  Have you shown them so you know that they are good examples of the breed?"
I have seen this type of response before and am just wondering what is wrong with producing pet puppies? After all mosy dogs bred will live as pets rather than working dogs. As long as the dogs have the health checks done and are reared correctly and have homes to go to then why not? I don't know what breed these dogs are but many breeds these days have a limited gene pool so if only top winning show dogs are bred from then the gene pool gets even smaller and if a health problem develops then it can be hard to find unaffected dogs.
Being a breeder of pet puppies does not mean that people are just in it for a quick buck. Not everyone wants to show. These days we certainly can't always breed for the dogs original function, so why not breed nice family pets?

MarianneB wrote :
Nobody should consider a litter just because there are potential buyers -that should be on the list of requirements yes, but lower down -my reasons for breeding would never be anything but wanting to keep a pup back for showing or work as well as being able to offer something to the breed.

Surely breeding sound healthy well reared puppies with good temperaments does offer something to the breed whether or not the pups are shown or worked?
And if someone has offers of several good homes then why not breed a litter to let the people have a puppy of the type of dog they want. If responsible puppy breeders cannot fulfill the requirements for puppies then people might then buy puppies from less desirable sources therefore giving money into the puppy farmers Etc.

Westcoast also wrote :
  If they really wanted a puppy then they would go out and find one.

It seems to me this is exctly what these people have done. They have found some dogs they like and are giving it some thought and if they are prepared to wait until next year for a puppy from the dog they like then that is a good thing. Or would you suggest that these people just go out now and buy a puppy from the first available litter they see.  The "I want it now "attitude in our society makes it much easier for puppy farmers and the like to keep selling puppies as they cater very much to the impulse buyer who decides they want a puppy, sees one in the paper or on the internet and goes out and gets it.

I am not having a go at you in particular West coast but I have seen this type of response to peoples queries about breeding before and I have always wondered why anyone who asks about breeding is more or less told not to do it, when I would have thought that we need more responsible breeders in this world rather than less

>I have seen this type of response before and am just wondering what is wrong with producing pet puppies?

There's nothing wrong in producing pet puppies - they're the ones, from the litters that also produce the champions, that might be mismarked or otherwise not quite up to the breed standard. On average about 10% of pedigree puppies are valuable enough to the gene pool to be worth breeding from, and the breeder should always be aiming to improve on the parents.

(Added because I was too late to edit!)

>they're the ones, from the litters that also produce the champions, that might be mismarked or otherwise not quite up to the breed standard.

In an ideal world the only difference between the pet puppies and the champions would be whether the owners were interested in showing them! That would never happen, but it should always be the aim. I've heard it said so often but it's worth repeating - mongrels can be very healthy and of sound temperament and make marvellous pets - a pedigree dog needs to bear more than just a passing resemblence to its breed.

I am not having a go at you in particular West coast
No problem at all and there are many out there who will agree with you.  So let me try and explain why having been involved with my breed for over 25 years years and helped with rescue, I still feel that only typical dogs should be bred from. 

It doesn't matter at all if a pet dog is a little too big, a little too small, a little too big in eye, the ear carriage isn't quite as it should be etc.  With good health and temperament these dogs still make brilliant pets.  BUT if one of these ' a little not quite typical' dogs is mated to 'a little not quite typical' bitch, then the pups produced with start to look not like the breed should at all.  Now if someone buying these pet quality pups decided to do the same thing again, then the next generation will hardly look like the breed at all!  These are not necessarily bad people who are breeding for money.  They can be honest and caring puppy producers and just don't know what the breed should REALLY look like.

In the grooming parlour I would see Westies the size of Cockers with huge heads and ears, and poor coats and skin that would cost their owners a fortune in time, money and emotion as well as suffering to the dogs.  The people that produced these pups didn't do it deliberately - they did it because they didn't realise that their dog wasn't a good representitive of the breed.

The same thing would be true of Yorkies.  HUGE dogs with floppy ears and thick woolly coats that the owner couldn't manage to groom.  A well bred Yorkie with a fine silky coat is no problem to manage if lightly trimmed for a pet owner and can be easily picked up and tucked under an older owners' arm.  That was not true of some of the donkeys that I trimmed which often proved difficult for their elderly owners! :(

All the Cockers that I saw with thick coats, droopy eyes and smelly mouths that needed constant attention were all pet bred.

When people say that they 'only want a pet' I cringe because to me I think that's the most important job that any dog can do.  But I also see no reason why a family wanting 'just a pet' shouldn't have a happy, healthy pet who is ALSO a good representative of their breed.

That doesn't mean 'only top winning show dogs' are bred from because that would certainly mean that the gene pool in most breeds would be too small.  But I would consider a dog that is consistantly placed (not necessarily winning) at Championship Shows to be considered as a possibilty for breeding, which would give a varied gene pool in most breeds.

The reason that showing is often mentioned is because that is the place that most experience and knowledge gathers together in one place.  You can ask your dog's breeder about their quality but that maybe a biased view. ;)  You can ask a friend who breeds another breed but they won't know the finer points of your breed.  The best place to get opinions over a period of time (not just one show) is at Champ Shows because you are going to get a variety of viewpoints.  :)

Someone involved in the dog world will also have more experience and help available to ask if one of their puppy buyers has a problem.  A puppy producer with just their own pet at home and few contacts within the breed will have difficulty helping a puppy owner if they have a problem that they have not experienced themselves.  Puppy buyers deserve good back up and support for the lifetime of their puppy.

> just wondering what is wrong with producing pet puppies?

Why stop at one breed then?
Why not add a nice little Labrador, SBT, Cavalier, Cavadoodle.......?
Once you start breeding 'for the market' then it's logical to breed for demand.

You are then no longer a breed specialist/hobbyist you become the producer of a consumer product.
I (in common with many show breeders) only breed when I personally want a puppy for myself. If I was supplying the ever increasing pet puppy market I could be seduced into churning out a huge number of pups. Breeding only for myself and then selectively placing the remainder ( the difficult part I feel) with pet owners, limits my output considerably. If I bred for the pet puppy market I could 'crop' my produce regularly...after all I wouldn't have to make space for one from each litter.......they'd all be for sale.

When asked what type of breeder to avoid I usually mention the breeder who has the whole litter for sale.....breeding for profit often involves cost cutting.

I have had a few phone calls recently asking advice about starting up a 'pet breeding business' ......a sad consequence of the ressession.

Thank you very much for taking the time to write such an in depth reply. I did genuinely want to know why the opposition to pet breeding and your post makes a lot of sense to me.

West Coast has just given all the replies I would have done. At one point I had 4 Cavaliers, all from show breeders, two were bought for showing, two as pets. Whenever I walked them several pet Cavalier owners would stop me, look admiringly at my dogs and say "THAT'S what I expected my Cavalier to look like!" and I'd look at theirs and it would be 50 % bigger than mine with a really long face and long legs.  Pet buyers deserve to get a pet that look (and behave) like the breed they have chosen, and they are not going to get that from pet breeders that don't know what they are doing as far as the breed standard goes.

Those that don't care what breed or look their pet dog has, should go to a rescue centre and pick one, not line the pockets of people only breeding to make money -which is what the pet breeders do.

> So let me try and explain why having been involved with my breed for over 25 years years and helped with rescue, I still feel that only typical dogs should be bred from

WestCoast, your explanation is a well considered and thoughtful response.  Can we keep it somewhere prominent to use again?

To the OP it's worth recognising that whilst it's very flattering to be asked for a puppy at some point in the future it is sometimes a reflection on how well trained your dogs are.  I have had a few conversations only recently with someone looking at my breed - when we got right to the nuts and bolts of what she was looking for it seemed that she was most impressed by my dogs manners.  Once we took that out of the equation she had several other gundog breeds to consider.

Finally she admitted she loves my mongrel best of all.  If I had a £1 for every person that would like another 'Finn' I'd be very rich!! Sadly he's a one off and irreplaceable :)

WestCoast, your explanation is a well considered and thoughtful response.

To be honest it poured out on automatic pilot because it's truly and sincerely what I think and feel!  I get cross when serious breeders are accused of being 'up their own a*ses' or 'on their high horses' because I really don't feel that's the case.

I have always been happy to help anyone who is interested to learn about my breed.  That means putting in a lot of time, money and emotion.  But if someone rings for a puppy and wants to breed without learning, then they don't stand a hope in the world of getting a puppy from me! :)

I'm happy for the post to be saved or posted anywhere that it can possibly make a difference to the quantity of pet puppies being produced these days.  That is what my local rescue is full of, badly bred and cross bred young adults. :(

my reasons for having a litter are the same as yours marrianeb. i was planning a litter for next year i want to show my bitch a bit more as she is doing very well. the trouble i have is that i havent bred before and dont feel anyone will ask me for a puppy. my dogs have had there tests im wondering now whether i should bother.

General reply to all :)

I didn't actually say I wanted to breed, more that I have been asked if I will be. I don't show. Most of the enquiries have come via CD, only 2 from friends. Through CD I have made no mention of showing or any health screening that may or may not have been done, and yet people still ask.

I was surprised to get all of these enquiries considering the credit crunch and also surprised by how many people are on CD, view the pages want pups and are not concerned if they come from owners that show or have the required screening done, by screening I include DNA.

This makes me think that rightly or wrongly there are a lot of people that just want a healthy well rounded pup from parents of the same breed and that they assume that because the 'breeder' is on CD they must be good and doing the right thing.

Have you listed yourself as a breeder or as an owner Pinky? :)

Owner, which is why I was surprised

So am I. :) :)

I did wonder if it was because there are not a lot of litter's of my breed on CD at any one time and if these enquiries were from people just trying 'anybody' that had my breed even if they don't claim to be breeders.

I'm not sure about your breed ;) but certainly there are a lot less of mine being bred at the moment.  I recently had one dog puppy but advertised him on a specific Collie site because I wanted a show home for him, and I got 10 enquiries in 48 hours.  But I have to say that all were much more aware of temperament and health problems than pet enquiries have ever been.  None of them would have bought from a pet bred litter. :)

> When asked what type of breeder to avoid I usually mention the breeder who has the whole litter for sale.....breeding for profit often involves cost cutting.
>
>

So I would be classed as a breeder you would advise people to avoid then as I have sold whole litters?
I find that statement offensive as my dogs are all health tested and no expense is spared either on looking after my adults or on rearing my puppies.A few of my puppies have gone to working homes but most have gone to pet homes to people who want a good looking,healthy,happy,well bred family pet.
I give lifetime help,advice and support to every single puppy I have bred and have also spent hrs over the yrs giving advice to prospective buyers,advising on all aspects of buying and owning my breed,irrespective of whether they purchase from me.
My puppies all leave with bags of food,toys,treats,bowls,grooming equipment,collar and leads,loads of written advise and anything else I can think of lol.
I breed one litter a yr,I have only one breed and I certainly do not "crop" my produce as you put it.

So why DO you breed then if it's not for yourself? Just to sell -why? What's the point? Unless it's a really rare breed that has to be kept going.

No one is saying you fall into that camp but when asked - I do suggest ways to spot a profit-driven producer (there may be some exemplary dog breeders just breeding for profit but, you will agree I'm sure, very many are not)

Perhaps you would like to suggest ways a puppy buyer can spot the BYB.

> So why DO you breed then if it's not for yourself? Just to sell -why? What's the point? Unless it's a really rare breed that has to be kept going.

I breed to produce a quality dog that will be a joy for its owner to own,a dog that they can be proud of and one less owner buying from a puppy farm with all the misery that that entails or a BYB who does not care about what they produce and has never heard of health tests.

> Perhaps you would like to suggest ways a puppy buyer can spot the BYB.

Oh the list is extensive but I usually tell people to always ask about health testing,where are the puppies kept?,is the house clean?are the puppies clean?are the parents there(ok the dad may not be but mom defineatley)is mom friendly?does the breeder have knowledge of the breed?does the breeder worm the puppies ?(and use the correct products?)does the breeder ask questions about why you want a puppy and if you have a house with secure garden?will the breeder sell you a puppy if you work full time?.Are the puppies vet checked before being sold?

I forgot to say never let a breeder pressure you into a sale or worse offer you "a deal" if you buy two. Never buy from adverts in newspapers.

Replying to Roscoe Babe who said
So I would be classed as a breeder you would advise people to avoid then as I have sold whole litters?
I find that statement offensive as my dogs are all health tested and no expense is spared either on looking after my adults or on rearing my puppies.A few of my puppies have gone to working homes but most have gone to pet homes to people who want a good looking,healthy,happy,well bred family pet.
I give lifetime help,advice and support to every single puppy I have bred and have also spent hrs over the yrs giving advice to prospective buyers,advising on all aspects of buying and owning my breed,irrespective of whether they purchase from me.
My puppies all leave with bags of food,toys,treats,bowls,grooming equipment,collar and leads,loads of written advise and anything else I can think of lol.
I breed one litter a yr,I have only one breed and I certainly do not "crop" my produce as you put it.

now thats exactly it. I don't see why a breeder has to only breed for themselves or be involved in showing.  A friend of mine has a small breed. She does not have any interest in showing but loves her dogs and likes breeding them. She loves her puppies does all health tests, gives lifetimes support and spares no expense in rearing them.She keeps in touch with all her owners and delights in telling me what her puppies from earlier litters have been doing. Surely she is not wrong to bred them? as it gives her owners a quality pet and gives her a lot of joy.

In response to MarrianneB:
So why DO you breed then if it's not for yourself? Just to sell -why? What's the point?

I have a friend who has a small breed just likes having puppies. She can't always keep one as space and money is limited, but she loves having the babies and also loves the frienships that have  developed over the years with her puppy buyers. She rears her puppies very well and always has a waiting list for more. Sometimes she sells one in partnership and will have a puppy back if the bitch is bred . I don't see what is so wrong with breeding like this.
It is her hobby and just because she doesn't want to keep one for herself out of every litter doesn't make her a bad breeder. There are a lot of people out there with lovely pets who otherwise might have gone to a puppy farm or real BYB.

Well said dogmad1234

For those of you who breed because you want a pup for yourself, do you always get what you want in each litter?

Not always. Nature isn't that helpful! That's why I have two dogs instead of the bitch I wanted - nobody wanted dog puppies and they had nowhere to go - so they stayed. That's one of the many downsides of breeding - you don't necessarily get what you want, and you can't walk away as you could from someone else's litter.

A few more thoughts about why breed and why breed if you don't actually want a puppy out of the litter.
If you are breeding sound dogs of good  quality which are successful in the showring or good working dogs then people are going to see them and maybe would like one like it.
Not everyone can keep a dog every year so you might only breed every  3-4 years. What are the people who want a dog from your lines to do? Not everyone can wait 3-4 years for a pup. If you have enough people who will provide suitable homes and show or work their dogs then why not breed a litter for them?
I am not saying churn a litter out regardless and then look for homes, but if the good homes are there then why not breed.

I have only bred one litter, although I do plan another in the not too distant future, so may not be the best person to answer your questions. I also don't show, but do compete at agility. I also health test.

Every time you breed, you are putting your bitch at a potential risk, with all the things that can go wrong. I personally wouldn't want to take that risk solely for other people's benefit. If I want a pup I would think long and hard if I am prepared for the possible heartache and would only ever breed if I wanted to keep a pup.

If somebody REALLY wanted a pup from your lines they WOULD be prepared to wait however long it takes.

JeanGeniue said :Not always. Nature isn't that helpful! That's why I have two dogs instead of the bitch I wanted.

and if you had been able to sell the dogs would you have sold them and tried again for the bitch?

Pedlee wrote :
Every time you breed, you are putting your bitch at a potential risk, with all the things that can go wrong. I personally wouldn't want to take that risk solely for other people's benefit
Now that is a very good point. thanks.
Just in case anyone is wondering I have just had my first litter in over 25 years in dogs and have no plans for another one for the forseeable future. I am just interested in why people so often advise other people not to breed. Thanks for the interesting discussion.

and also loves the frienships that have  developed over the years with her puppy buyers.
To use a bitch to have pups to make friends is one of the saddest excuses that I've heard in a long time. :(

She can't always keep one as space and money is limited,
Says it all really? :(

Sometimes she sells one in partnership and will have a puppy back if the bitch is bred
Exactly fits my explaination about how untypical dogs are produced. :(

West coast said :
To use a bitch to have pups to make friends is one of the saddest excuses that I've heard in a long time.
Now that is twisting my words, Whilst i may not agree with my friend about how often she breeds, she certainly does not bred to make friends. I was trying to say that she cares about all the puppies she breeds, keeps in touch with the owners, rejoices in their successes and is heartbroken if one dies. She has made new friends all over the country because of the dogs she breeds.
I have had several dogs over the years and some of those breeders have really not been interested in the pups after they have been sold. Certainly none have been as intertested as my friend.

Not everyone can keep a dog every year so you might only breed every  3-4 years. What are the people who want a dog from your lines to do?

In my case they most certainly have to wait, or go elsewhere, I will always recommend other breeders and I know exactly who has pups or not in my breed. Just like I would do MYSELF if I was after a puppy from a certain line -I wouldn't expect the breeder to take a litter for MY sake!! How rude is that ?! I had a litter 10 months ago, planned to keep one bitch -which I did and she has been very successful at shows indeed, being the youngest of her breed ever to win an RCC. But I also had to keep a dog as the final home fell through. Due to having two pups (nightmare situation at any time) that will continue to need socialisation and training etc there is no way on earth I can even consider another litter of the same breed until these two are around 3 years old. Simply because I would not be able to keep anything, and as long as there are other breeders, there is no reason whatsoever for me to have a litter before I am in a position to keep a puppy myself again. And this is in a small breed numerically, 129 pups registered last year, out of which around 100 were working dogs so we're talking just 3 show litters. But I will NEVER breed for anyone but myself -the only way I'd consider it was if a line was at risk of dying out if a bitch was not bred from. But this isn't likely the happen in most breeds.

Also, if you breed a litter for the buyers, how can you know that the right number of pups are born? The right sexes? That nobody pulls out? Like in my last litter where the litter was DOUBLE the size expected and the final home fell through due to a sudden and unexpected family bereavement. I have no crystal ball, I can't tell if anything is going to happen, so therefore there is always a chance of HAVING to keep something.

I couldn't go through it all to have nothing at the end I just couldn't .  I need a fortnight in the sun when it is all over :-) and I have just what I am keeping myself.  I age 5 years every single time no joke. I wished I knew how people did it.   

I agree with you Marianne

I've got a puppy booked originally she would have been born this year, however her breeder wants to keep a bitch(hopefully)from the litter & didn't want one bred this year. So they have opted to breed next year instead & contacted me to let me know in case I wanted to go elsewhere, I didn't(they know me so well & had already thought I would still want a puppy). Others haven't been prepared to wait, because they just wanted a puppy to work, not bothered about the bloodlines, the breeders had already moved me to the top of the bitch puppies(even ahead of themselves !)because they know that I will give the puppy a forever home, even if my plans for her do not pan out.

I waited 4 years to get Roodee & he is definitely well worth the wait, as he is all we want in a Cavalier & more.

To breed simply to sell is not responsible, it is using the bitch, no matter if the actual litter is over subscribed when it arrives.

IMHO it should not be easy to get a puppy, buyers should be prepared to wait & if they are not, then they would not get within 100 miles of one of mine. I've got people who are waiting for puppies from the bloodlines behind my young dog, they are prepared to wait for as long as it takes for the plans to be fulfilled.

> and also loves the frienships that have  developed over the years with her puppy buyers.
> To use a bitch to have pups to make friends is one of the saddest excuses that I've heard in a long time. :-(
>
> She can't always keep one as space and money is limited,
> Says it all really? :-(
>
> Sometimes she sells one in partnership and will have a puppy back if the bitch is bred
> Exactly fits my explanation about how untypical dogs are produced. :-(

Well said !

> and if you had been able to sell the dogs would you have sold them and tried again for the bitch?

Nope I'd settle for what nature had delivered(as I did with a couple of litters)& keep what I considered to be the best from the litter

So I would be classed as a breeder you would advise people to avoid then as I have sold whole litters?
I find that statement offensive as my dogs are all health tested and no expense is spared either on looking after my adults or on rearing my puppies.A few of my puppies have gone to working homes but most have gone to pet homes to people who want a good looking,healthy,happy,well bred family pet.
I give lifetime help,advice and support to every single puppy I have bred and have also spent hrs over the yrs giving advice to prospective buyers,advising on all aspects of buying and owning my breed,irrespective of whether they purchase from me.
My puppies all leave with bags of food,toys,treats,bowls,grooming equipment,collar and leads,loads of written advise and anything else I can think of lol.
I breed one litter a yr,I have only one breed and I certainly do not "crop" my produce as you put it.

So essentially you are breeding for the "pet market"
What does the puppy pack you supply have to do with being a responsible breeder ??
If you sell all the puppies that is exactly what you are doing.

I would class someone who breeds litters to sell as a "Commercial"breeder, not a puppy farmer or BYB, but someone who breeds to sell  all that their bitches produce. Not necessarily a breeder to avoid, but someone who breeds for sale, rather than to continue their lines & improve the breed with each litter.

> I breed one litter a yr

Roscoebabe, as a potential buyer it is this part of your comment that would concern me - it's the fact that it sounds as though litters are arranged according to timing.  Perhaps that's not quite what you meant to say?

Here's my buyers perspective.  Whilst I'd also be wanting a breeder who displays the level of care you mention it's much more about what quality of dog they produce.  Choosing a pedigree means that you can know exactly what you are getting - a dog that fits the breed standard.

I would want my breeder to be able to explain how his/her breeding has developed, what they are aiming for, why they chose the stud dog, what they hope for etc.  Most breeders with some history in their breed can explain what they started with and how they've made improvements.  Even if they don't show I'd expect them to know the breed standard inside and out and be able to articulate why one puppy might be better than the other.  I'd want to be sure that the puppy we choose will grow into the dog we expect!

I appreciate that not everyone wants to show and not all puppies puppies born to show breeders will be up to the standard required.  If I wanted a pet, I'd still want a puppy that represented the breed standard, even if it wasn't quite a good as some of it's siblings.  My choice would be to go to a show breeder and I'd recommend others to do the same.  The exception would be if the breeder I chose suggested someone else, for instance someone who has used their stud dog.  In that instance the breeder is likely to have judged the quality of the bitch and may be mentoring a novice breeder.

> So essentially you are breeding for the "pet market"
> What does the puppy pack you supply have to do with being a responsible breeder ??
> If you sell all the puppies that is exactly what you are doing.
>

Not all puppies are bred for show surely?
I provide puppy packs so that my puppies needs are catered for for the first month at least,that  in my opinion makes me responsible,I do not close the door and forget about them.
I do not class myself as a commercial breeder at all.
When I said that I only breed one litter a yr perhaps that was incorrect as what I should probably said was I would not breed MORE than one litter a yr,not that I breed a litter EVERY yr.

> Here's my buyers perspective.  Whilst I'd also be wanting a breeder who displays the level of care you mention it's much more about what quality of dog they produce

> I would want my breeder to be able to explain how his/her breeding has developed, what they are aiming for, why they chose the stud dog, what they hope for etc.  Most breeders with some history in their breed can explain what they started with and how they've made improvements.  Even if they don't show I'd expect them to know the breed standard inside and out and be able to articulate why one puppy might be better than the other.  I'd want to be sure that the puppy we choose will grow into the dog we expect!
>

My puppies are good quality or I would not have bred them.
Yes I can explain all the above to any prospective owner.

> Not all puppies are bred for show surely?

They should all be bred to the breed standard & be fit for purpose. Anyone who deliberately breeds away from the breed standards in order to satisfy the pet market is not being a responsible breeder.

The aim of breeding pedigree dogs should always be to breed healthy, sound(in mind as well as body), typical dogs that improve the breed.

Blatantly breeding non standard puppies(which are bred for looks-i.e. incorrect colour, coat type etc)is not responsible breeding. People who breed like this are as bad as the show breeders who breed the exaggerated show type of dog.

Dogs that are bred to work should be just as typical of the breed as a dog bred for the showring.

A pedigree dog dog breeder also needs an in-depth knowledge of the breed, such as the health conditions in the breed, what the breed should look like etc

I appreciate that not everyone wants to show and not all puppies puppies born to show breeders will be up to the standard required.  If I wanted a pet, I'd still want a puppy that represented the breed standard, even if it wasn't quite a good as some of it's siblings.

Interestingly enough TWICE I was in this situation myself -I wanted a different breed,  and I was DEFINITE I only wanted a pet, absolutely no interest in showing or breeding it. The first time was when I had decided I wanted a Malinois. My breeds back then were Golden and Cavalier (showing both, breeding neither) but for all sorts of good reasons I wanted a tougher dog to do obedience with and one that could also guard the house -if nothing else LOOK like a deterrent, which Goldens and Cavaliers did not! So I contacted the breed note writer for one of the dog papers and explained what I was after, and was put in touch with the then current top breeder -there weren't many breeders around then either. By pure chance there was a litter available with some spare pups. I went to see them, said I wanted to do obedience, absolutely NOT show or breed, hence I picked the pup I liked the character the most of, totally disregarded looks -not that I knew what I was looking for then. But this was a good show breeder and ALL her pups were good.

A few months later I had been contacted by e-mail by a lady in the breed who had seen my pup on my website (she owned a bitch from the same breeder, one that went BOB at Crufts twice) and she convinced me to have a go at showing my pup. She seemed so nice and friendly that I was persuaded. I figured "Why not?" Just the once! Cutting that story short, that bitch is now on 2 CCs, I am very heavily involved in the breed, showing a lot, breeding (infrequently) and indeed these days I do the breed notes for one of the papers myself. So I was very lucky -my interest changed totally, but I found my pup WAS good enough to go MUCH further with. It is now my main breed and I've bred CC and RCC winners. So much for not wanting to show!!

The second story is similar in all but the breeder. I wanted a Papillon, a life long dream, and again I wanted just a PET, didn't want a second breed to show, despite the fact that by then I was no longer showing Cavaliers and eventually stopped showing Goldens as well. I had been on the waiting list from a good show breeder for quite some time, and then the bitch didn't take when mated. As I only wanted a pet and the breed isn't rare, I saw no reason to wait for the same breeder, and he recommended another breeder. That breeder in her turn recommended a third breeder, and that's where I  ended up going -pups 3 weeks old, none booked yet so I could have my pick -great! Foolishly I just assumed this was another proper breeder, and it wasn't until I came home with my pup that I realised here was a pet puppy bred from an UNREGISTERED pet mother. (As pups usually are sold unreg'd when sold as pets in this breed, I didn't query the fact my pup wasn't reg'd.) That poor mother had a second litter just 8 months later -next season. :( Now my pet dog is a WONDERFUL dog, lovely little pet, great for obedience, but once again the bug hit me, I fell so much in love with the breed that I wanted something to show. This time there was no way I could show my pet. Eventually, after 2 years of waiting, got a bitch from a show breeder, then later was lucky enough to be offered a second bitch from another show breeder -and that's when I really started to realise that much as I love my pet dog, he does NOT look as nice as the two show bred bitches. His legs aren't straight, his eyes are very runny (nothing the vet has done has helped), his coat isn't as nice - it's hard to explain but just looking at the 3 of them he stands out as less quality. He's also VERY sensitive as far as food etc goes, allergic to a lot, gets an upset stomach easily etc, but the two bitches are NOT. Yes they are all nice pets, but surely even a pet should look like the breed and be healthy? (And as far as allergies etc goes, there are of course no breed specific health tests to be done!) Also from this pet breeder there is NO support whatsoever as she knows less than me. Whereas one of the other breeders (in particular) has been extremely helpful, with me all the way, teaching me so much, nothing is too much trouble.