I heard a rumour today that the KC as from 2012 are taking away all CC's on offer for the breed until the problems are solved , something to do with double handerling, standard, and a judge getting death threats in the ring amongst other things?

It's on one of the GSD forums, apparantly a letter from the KC sent to one of their clubs has been publically displayed on the site.

Peanuts

Well the only judge to get a death threat at the ringside was Tony Stanbra(the remarks were made to his wife) at Crufts from an Alsatianist I understand.

The Secretary's of all the clubs that have CC show status have received a letter(link here & here)

The site it is on is not a forum or a club site but the Videx site.

The Kennel Club are cutting off their nose to spite their face unfortunately & in all likelihood will end up with just Alsatians registered with them, the International type will set up their own SV style registration system & enforce full health testing before registration of puppies. The Alsatianists will then get the name changed back to the one they prefer & only their dogs will be seen at Kennel Club shows, which no doubt will prove very popular with the KC hierarchy. Their income will drop of course & they will have hardly any GSDs(well they will be Alsatians)being hip & elbow tested, which won't look good for the "Fit for Function"ethos.

All the Alsatianists must be rubbing there hands in glee, after all there is no criticism of their over long short legged soft backed dogs from the KC-who are only against the GSD type(& I do not condone overdone dogs from the International side).

They might even get the Long Coat accepted as the norm in the breed standard then they can have Alsatian(short coated)as one breed & Alsatian(long coat)as another & give them CCs for each type. Now there's a thought !!!

It won't bother me as I intend to get my next GSD from Germany & he won't be for breed showing.

Apologies if this offends, its a genuine question. What is the difference between alsations and a german shepherd. I always thought years ago they were the same breed but obviously not.

no-body should get a death threat over dog showing or any other reason thats outrageous !!

Peanuts

The correct KC name for the breed is 'German Shepherd Dog (Alsatian)'. They should be identical but, as with so many other breeds, there are different types, and the supporters of the various types dislike each other's preferences intensely.

>no-body should get a death threat over dog showing or any other reason thats outrageous !!

You're absolutely right - it's utterly inexcusable to any rational human being.

Ok thanks for that i understand now. Are they shown in the same class then? Or are they seperately classified?  Im just confued thats all as essentially the same breed but a different type. Which is the one with the slopey back and tiny back legs?

> They should be identical but, as with so many other breeds, there are different types, and the supporters of the various types dislike each other's preferences intensely.

Add to this one side do all the available health testing & the others well the fact that their main club website's page on health is blank should answer what they feel about health testing :-(

I gather it depends on who's judging as to which type will be entered. If a judge is known to favour the banana-backs then the straight-backs won't be entered, and vice versa.

>Which is the one with the slopey back and tiny back legs?

The continental type, as far as I can understand it. It's the most incredibly convoluted and political breed there is.

>Add to this one side do all the available health testing

If both 'sides' do all the available testing there would still be massive differences.

I dont understand the comments about the KC hierarchy (whoever that may be) favouring the UK type and not liking the correct International type. Several members of the General Committee support the international type and wish the clubs would help themselves.

>the correct International type.

Define 'correct'. The type that most closely resembles the original breed must surely be the most 'correct'.

There has been a bit of a shake up in Germany too, mainly on the health, conformation and working ability of the WG showline.  If the Germans find that demand for their dogs is dropping worldwide, believe me, changes will be made.  About time the KC took a stand.

>It won't bother me as I intend to get my next GSD from Germany & he won't be for breed showing

The show world has a considerable effect on the future and direction of a breed and if anyone is passionate about a breed as a whole, then they will be concerned about what is happening in the ring as well as everywhere else, regardless if that type is their cup of tea or not! 

The one certainty in all this is that MM is correct in one respect....if the GSD ( for that read the high withered, crouched, flying-trotting 'Germanic' type) fraternity is forced to stop the gaiting contests with double-handling - they will break away and CCs will be irrelevant to them anyway.

It matters little about which type of dog is the correct type/best when there is still double handling recognised as the norm for this breed!

Stamp that out first - then being in a ring adjacent to the GSD will not be such a strain on the other exhibitors and dogs.

I attended a GSD show recently and my friend and I were trying to control our laughter as the exhibitors' partners stood yelling and whistling at their dogs - and they were standing right next to the signs forbidding double handling.

I fail to see how anyone can think it makes the dogs look better - they just look confused and stressed to me, rather than alert.

>I fail to see how anyone can think it makes the dogs look better - they just look confused and stressed to me, rather than alert.

Yes - anxious and bewildered. Not an attractive look, nor particularly kind to the dogs.

>if the GSD ( for that read the high withered, crouched, flying-trotting 'Germanic' type) fraternity is forced to stop the gaiting contests with double-handling - they will break away and CCs will be irrelevant to them anyway.

There are 4 WG showline kennels in the UK that dominate the show ring.  Most of the others haven't had a sniff of a CC.  Entries have been falling over a number of years.  We are talking about a small segment of the breed directly affected.  

Most people who buy puppies are pet owners; most pet owners want KC registered puppies.  Yes, they could break away and form their own registration so that they can have double handling and weak hind quartered dogs if they want but for what?   The right to promote unsound dogs and to put it bluntly, run around a ring like lunatics?  If that is the case, then we have far more serious problems in the breed than the dogs themselves.  

There has been a split in the S.V too and the emergence of the SV2000.  Many, many folk worldwide have big concerns about the health, longativity, working ability and conformation of WG show not to mention the antics in the ring.  It is not just the KC.

Could one of the GSD exhibitors that must be part of this board please explain why it is necessary for all the double handling which is so blatent in this breed?

Margot,  I don't exhibit myself but I do serve on the committee of a club which runs Open and Champ shows - in fact in 2012 it would be our turn to hold a champ show as it's our turn for the ccs that year. 

I think (and I only speak for myself) that the outside attraction can improve the appearance of the dog, making it appear alert and interested (which IMO shows the GSD at it's most beautiful).  GSD enthusiasts (as opposed to the Alsatianists) are trying to adhere to the SV standard and many would prefer it if we had a similar set up in this country.  In Germany, the double handling is a sport in itself, I believe.  People take stepladders to climb on, horns and whistles to make a racket with!  I, personally, don't have a problem with double handling as such, so long as it doesn't involve people running round the ring, possibly hurting spectators or other dogs, though I realise that this is against KC rules.  In fact it can make for a very exciting atmosphere.  So, in my rather rambling way of saying things, it's probably a German 'import'!

The letter which I have seen 'in the flesh' says that the CCs for 2012 have been suspended due to health concerns (!) and double handling.  Knowing the KC, it's about double handling but they're trying to look good to the Jemima Puddleduck followers so have mentioned health too!

MM, discussions about the letter and the original link were posted on the Pedigree Database and there is currently a heated discussion (when is there ever anything else when GSDs are the subject!) taking place about alternative registration for GSDs whilst leaving the Alsatians to the KC (I won't tell you what I think of those poor things - whoops it slipped out!).  This will obviously mean that the only double handling taking place will be at the shows for the 'breakaway' faction, whereas the Alsatianists will be able show alone at breed shows, minus the double handling but strung up on a cheese wire without any health testing (Hush my mouth!).  And the KC reckons they're interested in the health of our breed!!

Sorry will get off the old soapbox now :)

Whilst "outside attraction" may be desirable (requisite even?) for one breed, you have to admit it is pretty off-putting for the other breeds in adjacent rings!   Perhaps it could be reserved for breed-only shows?

> Which is the one with the slopey back and tiny back legs?

Lol @mahonc - are you trying to start a riot?

Paula,
Whilst I agree that GSDs look fabulous when alert, I must say- so do Boxers, Dobes and most dogs in fact.
Unless you are exhibiting at a single breed show running, whistling, shouting and clattering dog bowls really upsets non double-handling enthusiasts and surely cant be tolerated. For H&S reasons alone the KCs insurance wont cover people flailing around at top speed, bashing into all and sundry.

"My opinion is clear, please do not confuse me with facts"...sorry Paula...many of us dont like it and we pay the same as the D-Handlers.

Cheekychow it was a genuine question in fairness, but that is an accurate description. When i was at manchester champ show early this year i was horrified at what was there. I can't see they are fit for ANY purpose looking like that. Why would you want a dog with a slopey back and tiny back legs? Am i to understand they are what they call gsd i am glad something is being done. As for alsations they look better but SHOULD health check.

Mahonc they don't appeal to me at all and I am totally with the camp that think they look deformed.  sorry I should have put a winking smiley, my comment was meant quite tongue in cheek to you rather than an accusation. :)

The Alsatianists dare not health test, you only have to look at the dogs to know why. Their top man sold a dog to someone wanting to do Working Trials. Neither parent was X rayed for HD, the puppy had major problems walking from around 4 months & X rays revealed very poor hip construction, when the dog was scored at 12 months he had the maximum score & so basically had no hip joints at all.

The whole matter went to court as the breeder claimed that his dogs were all vet checked healthy ! It cost him well over £12,000 + costs & this was back at the start of the scoring scheme.

The breeder still does not health test & his followers also never hip score or Haemophilia test, because these conditions are only found in Germany GSDs !!!

I understand that several of this type breeders may new owners sign to say they will not have their dogs scored ever !!!!

> Which is the one with the slopey back and tiny back legs?

Hm no GSDs have tiny back legs of either type, The Alsatians don't have the pronounced high withers & they have such over angulated hindquarters that they have to be stacked & held in place.

When Alsatians are stacked the hind quarters below the hock joint(not the hock as is often incorrectly described) are almost parallel with the ground. The do not meet the ratio of height to length & are usually long coupled & shourt ribbed, resulting in the topline sagging where the ribcage ends. I find it very find it very difficult to tell dog from bitch heads & if the dogs were not so big & heavy I probably would not be able to male from female

My type of GSD is the one that can either work cattle/sheep or do VPG like this dog or this one both are obviously males & need no propping up or cheese wires up under their ears

Don't start me on blatant over done double handling, in the UK it used to cover the fact that the dogs are not VPG trained & are show line dogs who only work is running around the ring. A well trained dog can be shown far easier than one that has only been trained to run at the end of lead being called by their owners. When I judge I do not allow any double handling & stop judging until they stop, if it continues then the dog concerned is dismissed from the ring for a contravention of the KC rules(I always call the shows Chief Steward in before doing so to ensure the dogs correct details are recorded in the incident book. Oddly enough after doing once in the North & once in the Midlands double handling around my ring doesn't happen ! I wonder why ??

It is interesting how many in WG show are saying that the KC recent development is all about double handling, and health is just a bystander to satisfy the JH followers. 

Paula, have you read the comments on this board - 'slopey back', 'tiny back legs', 'deformed', 'horrified at what I saw there'.  Do you honestly think that separate alternative registration for German show is going to get any credibility?  Is this really what the breed needs right now?

Ha ha Yeh i knew you were just laughing. I knew you wasn't being funny. I just wanted to make sure the gsd people knew i wasn't causing trouble. That is what they look lie and wanted to know which is which. Its sad really as its such a nice breed. And no breed is perfect but the main thing is we address the problems not sweep them under the carpet and defend what they are doing.

>Hm no GSDs have tiny back legs of either type.

I know what Mahonc means here; I've seen it myself.  On the send away in some of these dogs, the hind leg movement can give the illusion as though the dog is all wither with tiny back legs. 

>My type of GSD is the one that can either work cattle/sheep or do VPG like this dog or this one

Good choice of dogs, MM, we agree on something :-P

> As for alsations they look better but SHOULD health check.

Alsatians fail to meet the breed standard befor ehaving a finger laid on them because they do not have the correct body proportions.

Great Danes on the other hand are, of course, all sound, good temperament, fully health tested & could hunt Wild Boars. Er no in the words of a Champ Show judge with just a small amount of knowledge of the breed said to me(by Bill Siggers)"There were many Danes-sadly none of them were Great"

> Whilst "outside attraction" may be desirable (requisite even?) for one breed, you have to admit it is pretty off-putting for the other breeds in adjacent rings!   Perhaps it could be reserved for breed-only shows?

As is the lumps of flying liver, squeaky toys, dogs being sparred up against each other etc etc to breeds that are quietly shown free standing !

Moonmaiden what is your point? I made a valid point all breeds have issues that need to be addressed. Danes at the moment have issues with dcm so currently there is research looking into that so we can see if we can diagnose the gene. This is clearly being addressed. As for hunting boars im afraid you dont see many around these days so they are pretty much redundant. Many many many years ago danes had an aggressive nature. Many years of good breeding has changed that. Why do you continue to defend gsd?

OK - that too is horrendous (had one aussie jump to catch some liver being chucked around for a boxer in next ring once!) - but at least there aren't addtional people running round the OUTSIDE of the rings, a-hollering and a-hooting!!

Mind you, I do remember one Champ show - I'm pretty sure it was W & P and we were in a ring adjacant to the ring where Great Danes were being judged.......judging in all other rings stopped because the attention of all other judges was directed onto one particular lady handler .....it was a very hot day, and she was showing her dog in a very fetching pink sun suit .....vvv short shorts ....vvv skimpy top ......... :d :d............

>> Whilst "outside attraction" may be desirable (requisite even?) for one breed, you have to admit it is pretty off-putting for the other breeds in adjacent rings!
>As is the lumps of flying liver, squeaky toys, dogs being sparred up against each other etc etc to breeds that are quietly shown free standing !

Absolutely! Both are terribly unsporting practices, but only one is specifically against KC rules.

>Alsatians fail to meet the breed standard befor ehaving a finger laid on them because they do not have the correct body proportions.

Continental GSDs fail to meet the breed standard before having a finger laid on them because their topline is not straight from withers to croup.

Evens Stevens so far.

I once knew people that had a beautiful GSD - pure German bloodlines, most wonderful masculine head piece,
decent bone, rich pigmentation in the rust and black.
No 'banana' back though, he was from working security stock, he was bought into this country
to work and to be used at stud on their bitches etc.
Couldn't tell you the breeding or his pedigree name or working certification etc - just knew he looked fabulous.
A real eye catcher that your eye just got drawn to.

I grew up with GSD's/Alsations since I was 4yo until I was 16yo.
We had 'Tomcrofts' GSD's.
I believe Kitty Watts that bred them also used Police dogs in her breedings.
At that point although I knew that our dogs were from show stock/ex show dogs I knew nothing of showing & pedigrees.
I can remember that Ramacon Swashbuckler was in their pedigree.

I can still remember the look of horror on my mum's face when I got a Boxer :D

> As for hunting boars im afraid you dont see many around these days so they are pretty much redundant. Many many many years ago danes had an aggressive nature. Many years of good breeding has changed that. Why do you continue to defend gsd?

No Wild Boar ??? I suggest you look more carefully at the temperament of the Great Dane-especially the Brindles & Fawns-they leave a lot to be desired & the conformation in the UK is ................. better not say. years of careful breeding ?? tell that to the local breed societies who have banned several Great Danes from their shows for aggression(well they do not accept their entries-which is quite within the KC rules before you shout a reply & yes my Show does not accept their entries either)

Defend the GSD-which should I not, did you actually bother to look at the German dog's links I put up ? They certainly do not have incorrect toplines as they are working dogs & they could not work if they were not constructed correctly

Have a look here GSD  who earns here working sheep !! Also have a look here scroll down to see the current sheep working dogs-of course they do not look like the Alsatian, so obviously can't be the correct type-I mean a breed that can still do the job it was developed for- surely not possible.

Karl Fuller-Kirschental wrote:
During all my years of breeding, I have never lost sight of my breeding goals.
"Focus on workability, because it serves the breed", of course one could also say,
"Focus on the breed, because it serves workability". A very important criteria in my breeding goals, has always been workability. Only with several exceptions, all my dogs have been worked and titled in HGH. As a professional shepherd, I do not have the time to go for walks with my dogs, but instead my dogs have their exercise working daily with the sheep. A German Shepherd Dog that has anatomical errors, overangulation, incorrect reach, or small long paws, is not capable of working all day long in the field. Herding dogs must also be extremely healthy. Having to work from early morning to late at night, summer or winter, they cannot be sensitive. Obviously, healthy hips and elbows are a necessity.

I actually have to agree, there ARE a lot of danes out there in my opinion that aren't breed standard. And i dont AGREE with it. However these issues again need to be addressed and sorted out. And from what i have heard from ppl in the dane circles they aren't happy about it either. The thing is although not breed standard ithe kennel club or anyone else does not think this terrible enough to revoke cc's. Which your breed seems to have?. Again the thing is address and admit the problems.

> The thing is although not breed standard ithe kennel club or anyone else does not think this terrible enough to revoke cc's. Which your breed seems to have?. Again the thing is address and admit the problems.

This is because some of the International type have ruffled a few feathers & want to have two breeds The English Alsatian & The German Shepherd Dog. The KC do not like this& so are out to rid themselves of the thorn in their side & suspend GSD CCs

The working dogs I like do not have the faults of either the English Alsatian or the International type, but they are bred to be "Fit for Function"(ie be able to HGH/VPG)

If the KC opted to boot out the Internal type if would not bother me personally as I already have plans for my next GSD & there will be no Alsatian or showline dogs behind him only working dogs. He will never be shown in breed as he will not fit into either type. Being bred like the ISDS dogs for brains not beauty

> And from what i have heard from ppl in the dane circles they aren't happy about it either

Pity some of the top breeders have no concerns over the temperaments & health of their dogs

I agree entirely with your comments about temperament and Alsatians MM.

Just a few points in reply to other posts. I did point out that double handling should not place anyone at risk of getting hurt.  I appreciate that it can be off putting to other  exhibitors and their dogs.  As I have said, I don't exhibit and have never exhibited myGSDs and certainly won't be showing the two I have now, beautiful as they are to me!  Our last two shows, the first an open then a champ show, were visited by kc field officers.  Both of these officers left having been satisfied that we did our utmost to avoid double handling - notices everywhere, including the schedule and the catalogue, regular announcements over a tannoy and members of the committee having a quiet word with the offenders.  We are more than aware that the kc sees us as a thorn in their side.

As regards the banana backs,  many GSDs can be stood to exaggerate the slope of their back, in fact both of mine can be made to look pretty shocking.  However, when they're standing 4 square their backs fall away slightly to the croup!!  Spender, of course I read what people think, they are entitled to their opinion, just as I am to mine.

If the kc was really bothered about health, surely a similar letter should have gone out to EVERY breed with health problems together with the insistence on the health testing of the parents of every litter they register! 

I am passionate about the GSD, they should be the ultimate combination of brains and beauty.  I realise that they have problems, I know that certain things need to change -  mainly the bitter arguments within the breed.  In fact many show people are moving over to the VPG side and now there's infighting there!  I can honestly say that I adore GSDs, I do not breed or show, but I am on a club committee, I take the money, make the tea, I get to fuss over lots of beautiful dogs, show and pet, and I train my own dogs there when I get the chance, and it makes me happy, it does not make me any money, quite the opposite!  I say this so that everyone will realise that I have no hidden agenda.

Toolz, my signature is VERY tongue in cheek!!

> As regards the banana backs,  many GSDs can be stood to exaggerate the slope of their back, in fact both of mine can be made to look pretty shocking.  However, when they're standing 4 square their backs fall away slightly to the croup!! 

Paula,
You are so right on this point.
This fashion for ramming the dogs croup so far into it's body to give this extreme shape is probably the reason many people call them 'banana backs'.
Many showline GSDs are normal and unexagerated when not in the showring and my friends latest young Videx bitch is a very workmanlike animal, working well in a couple of disciplines but if she wants to win in the showring her croup needs to be pressed into her belly button!!
Her owner either needs to then get fit enough to run around the outside of the ring whistling and cavorting while the bitch gets run around by a young man in shorts, paid for the service....what a performance

Humiliating for dog and owner...and such a dignified breed too...so at odds with the lovely dogs 'working life'.

I dont know how or why it got like this but if it continues, the showring and public perception will be the preserve of the Alsatian ..........a sad sad state of affairs.
A noble breed reduced to an over sized corgi with a weak temperament.

I do so hope the owners and breeders of the true GSD get this sorted.

I think a large part of the problem with the breed is that the big breeders have turned a hobby into a business and ultimately it's become about power and money. Sad.

>We are more than aware that the KC sees us as a thorn in their side.

>In fact, many show people are moving over to the VPG side and now there's infighting there!

Not only the KC by the looks of things!

I often wonder if a lot of the frustration is because that some are trying to turn the UK into a mini Germany and they want the KC to act like the S.V.  They want to show their dogs like they do in Germany and they want the KC to change their rules to let them do so.  Double handling is the way the GSD has been traditionally shown in Germany and throughout the world.   Dogs can be gaiting for over an hour in these shows and it is generally believed that some stimulus is required to keep them interested, alert and at the end of the lead during this time. I don't know of any KC shows that require GSD to be gaited for over an hour??  

It's very sad to see this wonderful breed being pulled apart, the politics, the infighting, not to mention the comments about the conformation of the dog itself regularly made on internet forums, in everyday life etc, etc.  This is the most noblest of breeds - it was admired and respected - one of the most popular breeds in the world.  Nowadays it gets looks of horror from many JP - and these show folk (not you personally, Paula) are fast loosing any credibility that they might possibly hope to attain or build on by behaving in such a manner. 

One would think that to limit any further damage to the reputation of the breed, the sensible thing to do would be to behave like sensible and rational human beings and for the sake of the breed communicate with the KC and negotiate some sort of way forward.

There is and has been too much publicity around this now, the KC have used health and conformation issues to boost their argument (rightfully, wrongfully or as a ploy to get what they want is irrelevant) for to set up a separate registration on this basis and try to convince JP (I don't know how that's going to happen) is likely only going to do the opposite and convince folk that JH was right all along.  I sincerely hope they do not play into her hands.

>Ultimately it's become about power and money. Sad. 

I agree Paula, absolutely - power, greed and money have taken over.  Of course, there won't be much power and money if the public worldwide stop buying show GSD's which is where this could ultimately end up.

I've put this as a reply to you Spender simply as you're the last post not as this is particularly personal to you :-)

As a matter of interest, have any other breeds or parts of breeds broken away from the kc in the past?  If so, did it work?

Spender, what is also worrying is that people may start buying working line GSDs and not be able to manage their drives adequately, creating more bad press.  However I would hope that working lines breeders are ethical enough to avoid such a situation.

Yes indeed, I agree, some of these lines are too drivey to live a life as a pet and if not managed appropriately could indeed give the breed bad press. 

However, there are also the 'middle of the road' guys and others who are blending work and show lines and of course do all the health tests.  So, there is still quite a variation out there.  They might not win shows at the current perception of the standard but well, it might only be a matter of time......it would be good to get some diversity back in the ring.

>The show ring and public perception will be the preserve of the Alsatian ..........a sad, sad state of affairs.  A noble breed reduced to an over sized corgi with a weak temperament.

That's exactly what might happen - talk about falling into the Alsatianist's hands.......

(I suggest you look more carefully at the temperament of the Great Dane-especially the Brindles & Fawns-they leave a lot to be desired & the conformation in the UK is ................. better not say. years of careful breeding ?? )

Here we go again giving advice on yet another breed!  this person seems to know an awful lot about ALL BREEDS of dogs according to various other posts on this forum!.  My fawns ALL have had wonderful temperaments - Moonmaiden PLEASE do not tar everyone, breeders or dogs with the same brush!!

> Here we go again giving advice on yet another breed!  this person seems to know an awful lot about ALL BREEDS of dogs according to various other posts on this forum!.  My fawns ALL have had wonderful temperaments - Moonmaiden PLEASE do not tar everyone, breeders or dogs with the same brush!!

but you all tar the GSD people with the same brush & all the German dogs as being cr*p with not even having any knowledge of the breed at all. At least I have friends with 30 + years of knowledge of Great Danes & unlike most modern day Great Dane owners don't have to google the net to find out about one of the best handlers, trainer of Great Danes, because he was their mentor when they were just starting out. None GSD people sound like the sheep in "Animal Farms" English Alsatian good German bad

I don't know about all breeds, but after 50 + years being actively involved with dogs I do know about a lot of dogs regardless of breeds & have experienced owners/breeders in an awful lot of breeds.

I trust your Great Danes are all hip, elbow & wobbler screened & heart tested ?? None of the breed club's has any health test guidelines & the Wobbler research seems to have faltered after 16 years

There you go again - 'but you all tar the GSD people' -

For your information I have only ever written anything ever on a forum anywhere TWICE and I have never mentioned GSD breeders or tarred anybody! it is not in my nature to be so rude, and anyway they seem to do a good job between themselves (from what I have read throughout the forums.)
It's a shame that the only answer I had was from you MM - RE: WSS in the UK post.   You appear to me to be a person that would ruffle anyones feathers - but I wonder if that is your intention in life!