What is the law relating to docking tails and removing dew claws on working dog puppies for sale?
What constitutes legal docking?

Dewclaws can be removed on any dog, working or not, as long as it's before the pup's eyes are open - ideally round about day 3.

Docking can only be done on certain breeds (several gundog breeds and most terriers) as long as the owner of the bitch can prove they are likely to be used for working; this would require him/her to have a shotgun certificate or a letter from a gamekeeper or shoot to verify that this is the case.

The vet doing the docking (it must be a vet) will give each docked puppy a certificate with the vet's name on it.

This is the law as it applies to England and Wales; in Scotland docking is totally banned, and cannot be done legally at all.

more info here :: http://www.basc.org.uk/en/departments/gundogs/tail-docking.cfm

K

The breeder only has to show evidence that the puppies are likely to be used for working (because the dam is), not that they will be. The whole litter can then be legally docked. If it turns out that they're then bought by people who choose not to work them there's been no offence committed.

Thanks to all

Having read the Animal Welfare Act 2006, I thought it was absolutely clear cut. Tails could only be docked if the prospective purchaser produced his gun licence etc and proved he/she was a shootin' man/woman and selected the individual puppy within five days of its birth.

On re-reading, this seems much less certain and there are obviously other equally valid interpretations. So now I'm at least as confused as I was before. Has any of this been tested in court?

Sorry if this is dense, but what do you mean by "selecting the individual puppy?--do you mean selected by the prospective new owner? Who seriously chooses a puppy at that age???

Mine is a traditionally docked breed and I don't know any breeders who only dock some of the pups--they're either all docked, or not docked at all, and almost always the latter because docked dogs are banned from competing in shows where the public pays to get in. Since most breeders aspire to show their dogs, and Crufts (among many others) charges an entry fee, docking has become a rarity in our breed. There are occasionally some funny looking tails seen on otherwise very handsome dogs. It's going to take a bit of time and breeding to get tails right in a breed that never had them until the ban came into force.

>Tails could only be docked if the prospective purchaser produced his gun licence etc

No, you've misunderstood. it's the breeder that has to produce the evidence that the pups might be used for legitimate working purposes because he works his dogs, not the prospective purchaser. he can then have the whole litter legally docked even if he has no propective purchasers in mind.

The law is clear; it's the owner of the dog to be docked that needs a current shotgun or firearm certificate (or one of the other proofs) - and until the puppy is sold, the breeder is the owner.

Please br aware that the laws in Scotland differ from England.

I have had two litters docked under the working dog exemption - as the breeder I prove that the bitch is used for work and , provide evidence of shooting rights/ shotgun certificates etc and sign to say the pups are likely to be used for work and that I intend to sell pups  to working homes have opted to have the full litter docked as at under 5 days I cannot know which pups will be sold for work or indeed which will be best suited to a working home.  Not all pups are guaranteed to be placed in working homes and DEFRA accepts that breeders cannot give 100% assurance that all be used for work... we don't have a crystal ball. Some pups sold for work may not make the grade for one reason or another, other initially keen owners may give up before the dog is trained. On the other hand pups sold as pets can end up being worked , I recommend all owners to attend basic gundog classes to give the dog an outlet for natural instincts and to help owners gain control .. many get bitten by the bug and a whole new wold is opened up to them.

Some breeders in my breed who cannot meet the requirements of evidence themselves will get pups docked if new owners are prepaired to select and pay for pups at birth, the new owner can then provide the evidences required under the AWB to the vet. In such cases only selected pups are docked and it is a gamble as the pup is too young to assess but it is happening. 

There have certainly been cases taken to court under AWB for illegal docking but to my knowledge there have been no cases where a legally docked litter has been challenged.

K

> It's going to take a bit of time and breeding to get tails right in a breed that never had them until the ban came into force

I think you'll find that they always had them, just that we always chopped them off :)

Actually ChinaBlue, that's not right, there are many breeds now with so many tail sets that it's a nightmare and will take a long time before the correct tailset is bred in some of them.  My breed has allsorts of tails and I know for one I would not use a dog that had a really curly tail.  Though saying that I always said that i would only have a natural bobtail but kept my Calida who has a full tail., luckily it doesn't curl though.

what bugs me is that the law doesnt take into account people who want to both work and show their gundogs! - the only way to achieve full championship status is to be a champion both in the field and at a show - but now you do not have the choice the dock the tail for working if you would like to also show - you would have to go for an undocked tail and that worries me as i have seen tail injuries and also having worked at a vets if a tail has to be amputated as an adult its a lot more serious than if taken off as a pup. i know many dogs work with full tails and are fine and dont get me wrong - i have never agreed with docking tails purely for cosmetic reasons - but i do feel that certain breeds when working are better off without a full tail - i have 2 springers and seeing what my little one gets up to - im so glad he doesnt have a full tail - cos' he'd have lost it by now i am sure!

You can still show docked gundogs, but only at shows where the public don't pay for admission. Many club championship shows are like this, and so full championship or dual championship status is still possible.

> You can still show docked gundogs, but only at shows where the public don't pay for admission. Many club championship shows are like this, and so full championship or dual championship status is still possible.

You can show legally docked dogs at any show in Scotland too.

>You can show legally docked dogs at any show in Scotland too.

A good point which I'd forgotten, and which increases the opportunities for winning CCs.

Yeah, but in this day and age it's a blooming long way to go and to be able to afford it!  Not that I have this worry as it will be many years before my breed gets CC status :)

Can someone hepl me with this....am so confused about this docking ban thing.  At a local companion show today, where we paid £1 per car at the entrance to the show, in the puppy class there was a "docked" boxer.  On making enquiries to the owner of said puppy, was told that it had been born in Ireland (Ok...docking still legal there I know), however the owner is totally convinced that he is doing nothing wrong in showing it, in fact he said the only show he couldnt show it at would be Crufts.  I then asked the organiser about this who also told me that it was ok the charge at the entrance to the show was just for the car not for the people in the car. Perhaps I am being a little dumb.....but if this is a loop hole in the law and most Championship shows dont charge for general public.....why are we not seeing docked dogs in the ring, be it from Ireland or other countries where docking is still legal. Having read the rules and regulations, I do seem to think that this chap has got it right....I may be wrong, can anyone out there help.....please...thank you.

> Yeah, but in this day and age it's a blooming long way to go and to be able to afford it!

LOL same for us though travelling to champ shows south of the border! The only champ shows where cc's are available for my breed up here are the SKC shows, there's no cc's for us at Leeds or Driffield so we have a lot of travelling to do to.

A legally docked gundog/terrier born in the Uk after the ban, or a legally docked dog of any breed born in Ireland / Overseas can enter shows where the public do not pay an entrance fee. Car parking is not an admission fee.

I show and work my dogs and my youngsters have been docked under the exemption and they are still shown at shows for which they are eligible. The only shows I cannot attend are Crufts (despite being qualified) , Windsor, East England, Leeds, Bournmouth, Richmond, & LKA. I have 24 other Ch Sh which do not charge a fee so its not too much of a problem.   

I guess in non gundog/terrier breeds the numbers of imported young dogs born after the ban will be very small.. hence not seeing too many at shows? In my breed it is not unusual to see docked youngsters being exhibited at shows for which they are eligible to enter.

K

Ok, I've misunderstood. Maybe!

Now don't get me wrong here, I've no axe to grind. I'm not looking to get the moral highground or anything like it. Indeed, I can see some very strong reasons for docking tails, particularly in GSP's. i.e the blood spattered walls and doors, the bandages, antibiotics and vets bills, leave aside the trail of broken wineglasses from coffee tables and the terrifically bruised shins. However, isn't it a fact that, by saying the breeder has responsibility and can get the puppies docked, people are simply exploiting the ambiguous wording of the 2006 Act and are interpreting it as they choose, rather than interpreting the spirit of the Act which is clearly anti-docking.

As I say, I have no particular feeling about docking. I certainly don't think its cruel, but on the other hand, from a personal aesthetic point of view, I prefer the long tail. What irritates me is what I see as the uncertainty in the law and the lack of interest displayed by the enforcing authorities (whoever they may be) to either prosecute, or to try and clarify the issue. The law says tomayto, The Kennel club says tomarto. Which is it?

The government and DEFRA acknowledged in discussion stages of the AWB that an option for a working exemption would create a degree "ambiguity" hence the desire for a total ban (as in Scotland)  from some quarters.  By accepting to include an option for a working exemption for the MP's free vote there needed to be workable protocol ... inevitably that means the "breeder" must be placed as reponsible for meeting the legal requirements,  and safeguards were put in place to try and prevent fraudulant use of the exemption - only certain breeds are eligible, strict rules on evidences, and limits on showing. Words such as "likely to be used for work " may seem wooly but it would not be workable to have words such as "must be used for work"  as most breeders will not have pups sold / paid for at under 5days old (no one even gets to see mine until 3-4 weeks and no selections can be made until 5-6 weeks until they are physically and behaviourally developed enough to assess.) and breeders cannot be legally held responsible for what new owners actually do with their dogs once they have left the breeders ownership.  

You say spirit of the AWB is anti docking BUT the government voted for an exemption and so acknowledged a valid, legal reasons for the docking of potential working pups. They also acknowledged an exemption, whilst in the best interst of working dogs, would result in some difficulties. It was accepted that all docked pups may not be sold to working homes due to lack of demand for working dogs or due to fact that certain pups may not be suited to work as a result of physical or behavioural issues. If breeders are docking according to the rules of the exemption I cannot see that there is any uncertanty in the law, I can see no grounds on which to prosecute either ? 

Illegal docking is another issue entirely, my vet has been involved (as a professional witness) in a number of prosectutions relating to illegal docking on behalf of the RSPCA since the introduction of the AWB.

K

A good clear explanation of the argument.

Thanks very much

Perhaps I am being a little dumb.....but if this is a loop hole in the law and most Championship shows dont charge for general public.....why are we not seeing docked dogs in the ring, be it from Ireland or other countries where docking is still legal

Because most people when showing will aspire to get to crufts, or  making up a champion.... so whats the point in buying a in docked dog where you are limited in the amount of shows you can go to.

Even those who are in it just for fun, may enjoy certain shows,  i.e    LKA,  or the like,  so unless you are in the market for a dual porpose dogs, working as well as showing,  , (even then yo will be restricted to the amount of shows you go to)  you may as well except the inevitable and  just get on with showing undocked dogs.

Besides , it would give you a head ache, working out which show you can and cant go too!!!

You say spirit of the AWB is anti docking BUT the government voted for an exemption and so acknowledged a valid, legal reasons for the docking of potential working pups. They also acknowledged an exemption, whilst in the best interst of working dogs, would result in some difficulties. It was accepted that all docked pups may not be sold to working homes due to lack of demand for working dogs or due to fact that certain pups may not be suited to work as a result of physical or behavioural issues. If breeders are docking according to the rules of the exemption I cannot see that there is any uncertanty in the law, I can see no grounds on which to prosecute either ? 

Maybe not, but there is a lot of hypocrisy and lack of knowledge in the law.

What one wonders  is,  the main reason for the anti dockign law is , that is cruel and causes uneccacy pain to the puppies.

Now ,  this for me is where they hypocrisy comes in.... whats the difference in the procedure to legally dock.... is it not done the same way , be it legal or not..... the puppy will feel the same sensation whether he is docked legally as the one docked illegally.

Depending on what side of the fence you sit on, will influence whether you believe it is pailful   or not.... now one assumes those who champion the law, assume it hurts  said pup,  yet will allow some pups to be docked.. 

For me, it should be  black or white... you can dock or you cant,  the pup will see it the same way....  tail off , tail one... regardless of whether he is going to work or not.

By the way .. may stance is 100%  pro docking

Yeah, but in this day and age it's a blooming long way to go and to be able to afford it!

Where is a long way to go ? :-)

Well I have a docked dog and an undocked pup, the pup's tail has very little hair on the last 3 inches after splitting it umpteen times and he's only 10mnths old! He is a dual purpose breed although I don't work him but I do show him and would far rather he was docked for his own good. I would rather have a dog that isn't continually splitting his tail which must be painful than show him at Crufts!!

I think the law is confusing as in Scotland there is an outright ban on docking yet you can show a legally docked dog at any show which I can't get my head around. It would have been more logical in my mind anyway to have a total ban and only allow docked dogs to shown under certain restrictions as is the case in England.

>Where is a long way to go ?

Scotland, to enter shows.

Oh right :-)  I should have clicked.  Most of the Scottish shows are only a little over the borders so not land ends :-)     I often chuckle when people talk about Scotland like it is on another planet.  I get to Bournemouth ( 500) miles is 8 hours so not the end of the world.

Perrodeagua

That post was a bit tongue in cheek :) I was merely pointing out that initially the breeds did HAVE tails, as the original poster said the dogs didn't have tails before.

I do understand that the variability is showing in the tails and some consistency will take time to achieve.

Jackbox  I agree with your view point re - docking, personally I would have prefered  that vote to have been for status quo at the parlimentary free vote  i.e fredom of choice for vets/breeders re docking or not.

I guess the working exemption was won on the fact that the risk of  moment of pain/discomfort at a few days old was "worth" accepting when compaired with the risk of tail damage and amputation in later life. Much as in injections are painful for children but we advocate them for the overal benefit of immunity to a variety of disease. As an owner / breeders of dual purpose dogs however I am greatful for the option to dock but accept that the exemption is less than perfect in its conception.

k