hi guys,yes dougal still misbehaving,he comes into living room growls grabs your hands in his mouth and grips firmly,we try to tell him off but he gets worse,i even sit on my hands he then bites my arms,we are covered in bruises yesterday he jamp up at my husband and bit his arm leaving a bruise,he hasnt got puppy teeth now just solid ones that hurt.any advise is this normal behaviour he is 8mths now.

have you been to training classes yet?

what breed is he?

how much and what type of exercise does he get?

what type of game sdo you play with him?

does anyone in the home play any roughhousing games with him?

Hi

I've just had a read of the previous advice you were given and you've got some some really good information there.

It may well be worth revisiting the information and links as it sounds as if you've not got to grips with his training.  I understand that you have concerns about his health but you cannot allow that to influence your relationship with him - I suspect you may have allowed your sympathy for him to take over? :)

It's not acceptable for him to grab and growl but he's only going to learn the boundaries from you.  You will need to very clear about what you wish to teach and what you may have allowed to develop.  This behaviour wasn't OK at 5 months and it will only get worse with age.  Get back to training classes if you've let them drop but in the meantime try keeping him on a lead when he comes into the room with you. Place a bed on the floor at your feet and encourage him to lie quietly - this can be reinforced with treats. 

Remember that Dougall isn't really misbehaving - he's doing only what you've allowed him to do.  Mouthing isn't uncommon but does need a calm and measured approach to resolve.  Sitting on your hands is just making them more tempting as it seems like a game.  Concentrate on teaching him what you want him to do in any situation.  Reward the desired behaviours rather than trying to discourage behaviours.  What do you want him to do when he comes into the living room?

he hasnt been to training classes,we do training in garden that behaviourist taught us,he has walks through fields when he is well,even though cardiologist didnt advise it cause of hiheart.he is a black labrador,he doesnt have rough play,we have tried all sorts with him but he still bites us,if this is normal puppy behaviour then fine,im just concerned for the children who are two years old,even though he is great with them,they dont do anything with him maybe kiss him on his back when passing him and kiss him goodnight,its us and my twelve year old daughter he picks on,which is a shame as my daughter loves him to bits and tries to play hide and seek with him but he just bites her,then she wishes we didnt have him.

we bought a bed for living room he distroyed it,and trying to keep him alive is costing enough so not bought another,we just want him to come into room and either lie by us or play not harm us.i only sit on my hands cause he really hurts and wont give in tried putting them between my knees anything rather than the hurt he causes,my husband has tried distracting him away he just starts on him then,then he is put out of room we are so stressed he requires our attention all day long and to be honest we havent got time that he needs.

Sounds as if this dog needs more brain work
he needs good walking and running and he/and you need to go to training class
training in the garden is not good enough for him..
Then i think you will find he will be happy to settle down...

Have you tried stuffing a kong? you can stuff them really ingeniously so that the dog has to work for his food. Also you may want to consider using this method for actually feeding him as again it makes him work and may keep him busy and tire him.

Do you do any searching exercises in the garden or house? as this can use his brain and make him more tired even than physical walks. It's difficult with his heart condition.

What were  you recommended for his mouthing? and have you contacted the behaviourist since as some give email/phone back up :)

you really need to get to proper training classes for him to bond with you and learn how to react properly to people and other dogs.this is something you have to make time for other wise this problem will get worst.
if he thinks it's ok to bite you then it's only a matter of time until your younger child comes under the firing line.
this is going to take time and patience to sort out and you need to be consistent with his training and what you expect from him,meaning everyone in the house has to treat him the same.
i'm afraid when you decide to have a dog you need to give what ever time is needed to train and exercise it. not all dogs are the same and some people expect this perfect little puppy that just wants cuddles and playing with but they learn from use what is right and wrong so now it's down to you to spend as much time as possible to correct the behaviour that isn't acceptable and with your guidance and time he will learn the rules and turn into a lovely dog.
sounds to me like he's got a lot of energy he needs to burn off so a lot more time needed for play,walks and brain games to stimulate him is needed. this combined with training classes should help calm him down.
at the training classes he will learn commands that will really help you control him ie 'leave', 'bed', 'sit','down' etc once he knows these and will learn using treats, then you can tellhim to lie down and stop what he's doing if it's bad behaviour.
don't get cross with him as if you shout when he is wound up this will just get him more excited. everything has to be done in a calm but firm manner and good behaviour rewarded with treats.
i'm sure you've been told all this before and taking on a dog is a big time committment, you only get out what you put in, a bit like having children they need to know the rules and they respect you much more for it.           

Gundogs are 'mouthy breeds' by nature - try giving him something else to hold instead of yourselves!  I have a number of friends with black labs [mostly working strains]  they all have their idiosyncracies.  One always greets me with a shoe, another a dog toy...  They need to hold something so you could combine training 'hold' whatever object you like; [a mental exercise] with distracting him from eating you. 

we have tried filling his kong but he doesnt want to know,we scatter his food around garden he gets bored of that i walk him about seven miles through fields,we cant even stroke him but he bites straight away he wont let us get close,he has just come in to living room and is growling and biting my husband, he has only been in five mins,its getting to stage that we hate him even though  deep in my heart i dont never in million years thought a dog would cause my family so much stress,never again.

Has your behaviourist suggested possible Hyperkinesis?  What you are describing sounds very similar.. and believe me.. I know how you are feeling right now..

These symptoms may include increased heart rate and respiration, excessive drooling, abnormally high metabolism and reduced urination. The syndrome is often difficult to diagnose as there appears to be no clear cut cause. Dogs that may be normal in other circumstances can exhibit some of these clinical anomalies and hyperkinetic symptoms may not always manifest the same behavioral or physical conditions from one dog to another.

Dogs with early signs of ADD can exhibit any of the following conditions: inability to sit still, even for very short periods of time; inability to adapt to routine situations; difficult or impossible to train, possibly to the point of failing obedience school; constant salivation and extreme excitability or nervousness. There are many experienced and gentle dog owners that have been bitten by their pets and often these same dogs will attack other docile, friendly animals without provocation.

In studies evaluating responses to stress, it was shown that some dogs were unresponsive to positive reinforcement

I have one of those dogs.. (My Spawn of Satan)  and I adore him.. BUT.. I do not have a family and young children to worry about.. and have spent the last 3 years, working a plan.. and revolving my life around him..

You need to speak to his breeder

> we have tried filling his kong but he doesnt want to know,we scatter his food around garden he gets bored of that i walk him about seven miles through fields,we cant even stroke him but he bites straight away he wont let us get close,he has just come in to living room and is growling and biting my husband, he has only been in five mins,its getting to stage that we hate him even though  deep in my heart i dont never in million years thought a dog would cause my family so much stress,never again.

This is an 8 month old puppy who you walk for 7 miles at a time that has a congenital heart condition ?????

we just want him to come into room and either lie by us or play not harm us.i only sit on my hands cause he really hurts and wont give in tried putting them between my knees anything rather than the hurt he causes,my husband has tried distracting him away he just starts on him then,then he is put out of room we are so stressed he requires our attention all day long and to be honest we havent got time that he needs

Just thinking about this again. Are you first time dog owners? :)

I think you need to do 2 things:

Reward him when he is being good

Give him consequence when he tries to chew your hands.

BUT ensure he has enough attention as well! which you do seem to be doing.

The consequence can be simply marking his mouthing with an "ah" as soon as his mouth touches skin, and calmly (with NO more interaction) taking him out the room for only 1 0r 2 minutes. Then allow him calmly back in. If he mouths again, repeat.

You may need to use a long line attached to his collar for this as he may otherwise mouth you when you attempt to remove him and forget what just happened.Sometimes it may be easier to leave the room yourself, this is the same thing - removing your attention/company for a short period of time. It must be short - one big mistake is that people often tend to put the dog out for ages and it has then totally forgotten and nothing makes any sense to the dog.

You may need to repeat this quite a lot (and you MUST do this every time he mouths, as soon as he mouths;  you HAVE to be consistent as if he does it just once and getes no consequence, he will be confused and it won't be fair on him). The third time, to save tempers and to give a calming time, you can if necessary let him stay out for up to half an hour. However, be cautious how you use this; remember you are helping him to understand, not punishing him for being  a boisterous puppy, so see it as instructional and be calm at all times).

There are games you can use to teach him to be soft mouthed and not to mouth, such as a tuggie game; if his mouth touches your hand, you immediately end the game by dropping the toy and walking right away into another room.

Sometimes behaviour does get worse before it improves - this is called an "extinction burst" and shows the training is working.

I'd also teach him to settle and relax, hopefully the person you had in has had some ideas for this.

Agree too he needs something in his mouth.
If he tries to mouth, you can, if you manage to intercept him/pre-empt him, give him a soft toy  or raggie toy - waggle it about a  bit so he is interested in it and then when he takes it, praise and give attention and even have a small game.

Teach him words such as "toy!" or "raggie" and so on, so when he is about to mouth you, he can go for his toy on your command and get attention that way.

If he's not interested in kongs, what are  you stuffing them with? :)
Sometimes you need to start off by making it easy and then get progressively harder. Usually an ultra tasty bit is put at the top of the kong to entice the dog to work to get it.

I hope that is some help. I do still wonder if his physical problems are causing any kind of OTT behaviour (or his meds). However you still need to help him understand how to live with you. If necessary I'd get another trainer in for a one to one in your home; try here:

http://www.apdt.co.uk/  skills vary even within an organisation but any trainer from there should be able to help you with at least some of this :)

Also have a read of this:

http://www.apdt.co.uk/dog_training_tips.asp

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/behaviour-training/how-do-dogs-learn.html

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/behaviour-training/relationships.html

Lindsay
x

Tried to edit but too late - sorry if this has been asked before but what food/treats does he have?
I can't see it but may have missed it.

Only you need to avoid certain products such as Bakers complete....due to so much sugar, colourings etc

it sounds to me like you've had enough and don't really want to keep this dog anymore. the choice is you either spend a large amount of time sorting this out or you find a home that can. sounds hard i know but this needs dealing with now and if you can't put the extra time in and get help with this then your dog is going to get worst and be an adult with bad problems which will be a lot harder to sort out.

>> we have tried filling his kong but he doesnt want to know,we scatter his food around garden he gets bored of that i walk him about seven miles through fields,we cant even stroke him but he bites straight away he wont let us get close,he has just come in to living room and is growling and biting my husband, he has only been in five mins,its getting to stage that we hate him even though  deep in my heart i dont never in million years thought a dog would cause my family so much stress,never again.

> This is an 8 month old puppy who you walk for 7 miles at a time that has a congenital heart condition ?????

My thoughts too. If you really are walking your dog that far every day with a heart problem then no wonder he is a bit nasty - he is probably tired and possibly in pain or discomfort.

At 8 months old this puppy isnt beyond help but you really need to work at sorting things out and be prepared to be consistent to see results. You only get out what you put in with dogs so you are going to need a considerable amount of training to get things back into shape.
Do you go to classes or 1:1 training? It really is invaluable for a trainer to teach you the correct way to do things and also to observe your handling. Sometimes it can be something we do as humans that confuses the dog making the technique wrong.

Perservere and you will get there but i do agree, if you feel it is too much now is the time to re home your dog before its too late and the damage has been done. From what i know of labradors he is just displaying usual characteristics (albeit a bit too extreme for his age!) and if that wasnt the sort of dog you wanted then you should have done some more research before taking purchase of a pup.

Perservere and you will get there but i do agree, if you feel it is too much now is the time to re home your dog before its too late and the damage has been done. From what i know of labradors he is just displaying usual characteristics (albeit a bit too extreme for his age!) and if that wasnt the sort of dog you wanted then you should have done some more research before taking purchase of a pup.
This sounds rather harsh - but I've got to agree to an extent.  From the tone of your posts I think perhaps you've come to this conclusion already.  I ended up re-homing our gorgeous, much loved Cocker Spaniel due to fighting with our other bitch[s].  I think I missed the early signs which COULD have helped me sort the problem out.  I did LOADS of research on the internet and libraries and observing occasional dogs/Cockers I met over many months even years on best breed for me and my kids - not enough time spent with live dogs though.
I re-homed Lou [Cocker] and though we still miss her like mad - the timing for her and us was vital - she is happy as an only dog in an extended family household and our remaining 2 dogs live in mostly harmony - or harmonic chaos! 
You can overcome/compensate for,  most problems with dogs but there are always costs - for both humans and canines.  With all the health problems as well you have a real hard time/decisions to make

yes as vet told us to as he said if he is going to die it will happen whether he is sitting or walking,also edinburgh told us the same and they are qualified heart surgeons,with experience of his heart condition

he doesnt get walked seven miles every day, it just depends where i go somedays he doesnt go cause of his health,if his heart plays up he can go a couple days before he goes

i cant rehome him because of his heart it has cost us over a thousand up to now since end january,so couldnt put that burden on another family,i did read on net about labradors but nothing  said how naughty they can be,i did want a cocker as i had one before,but people said oh no dont get one of them better with labrador with children.i know my tones sound awful but i do get stressed with him,my husband was doing training with him last night all was going well when he just turned and started biting and growling at him,it just disheartens us.

he is fed on arden grange (junior).

thanks lindsay, we have tried putting him out everytime then back in after couple mins then longer if he carried on,we bought house line he ate it,i fill his kong with either our food or his food softened   we scatter his food round garden for him to search,we have tried all sorts for him to relax but he wont it would be lovely for him to come and be with us in lounge but that doesnt normally happen till about half eleven,no we have had dogs before,i was brought up with only labradors dont remember it been like this though lol.i dont know if im replying to comments properly i seem to have a big list of my responses lol

Didn't you read any books on Labrador Retriever, speak to a breed club about the breed, visit some shows to see the breed in the flesh & talk to the owners ?

Reading stuff on the net is fine, but actually talking to knowledgeable people who understand the breed cannot be bettered.

> i cant rehome him because of his heart it has cost us over a thousand up to now since end january

Thought you had Insurance ?

"thank you,we heard of kennel club today they are going to help towards costs of scans and further treatment on his heart,we still not out of woods got to see what scan results are on saturday he is having scan the cardiologist is coming to vets,so we will see what his chances are after this is done,fingers crossed,he got over his turn last night without beta blockers and was fine again this morning,it happens every six days on dot,its so strange and upsetting  to see him suffer.will keep u informed x "

So sorry to hear of your problems, but don't give up hope.  We have a GSD who although he did not growl, he would come up to any member of the family and grab any part of you he could and it steadily got worse to the point he was leaving bruises.  We had attended training classes with a trainer who was an APDT member and we even had her out to the house twice for a one to one consultation. She advised for us to calmly leave the room when he did this (all the while with him trying to grap any part of you as you left).  To put him out of the room ( he couldn't have cared less, if it was outside he would just start playing).  At one point all four members of the family were outside of the room while he was merrily trying to chew on the furniture.  I have had dogs most of my life and have had a GSD before, but never anything like this boy. We eventually got a referral from the vet for a behavourist.  I spoke to this man for a long time on the phone and looked at his web site as I had heard some horror stories about people calling themselves behavourists and only making things worse.  This man was brilliant.  He visited us for a bout 4 hours, gave us advise immediately and written porcedures, and was always at the end of the phone for further advise.  He advised us to keep a line on our GSD about 2 foot long.  He would NEVER advise anything which would be detrimental to any dog.  We attached an old lead to a gate in the garden and when he started this behaviour, we would CALMLY as possible take him outside and attach him to the lead and come back in.  He was only left for 5 minutes BUT it meant he wasn't being put outside to play around, or put in a different room where he could do whatever he wanted. Our boy did get worse to start with but this approach DID work, although I would say it probably took a few months to stop.  Also if you have to limit his exercise sometimes, I would get a clicker and start teaching him tricks.  Our boy loves learning new things and it is mentally draining for him.  I did quite a few times, think that we would not be able to keep our boy as I new if left unchecked, this behaviour was dangerous. Our boy is now 3 and although he is the type of dog that you could not allow to ever take liberties, he is now a good boy and does not jump up and grab us. This approach worked for us, but if you seek advise from a behaviourist please check them very carefully and make sure they are in fact behaviourists and not just trainers.  Our guy lives near Inverness which is about 100 miles from us but it was worth seeing him.
Sorry this is so long.  I really hope you manage to get this problem sorted but know that it CAN be sorted.

> we have tried all sorts for him to relax but he wont it would be lovely for him to come and be with us in lounge but that doesnt normally happen till about half eleven

What have you done to to teach him to relax? Searching for food will not relax him, it may give him a bit of a mental work out, but wont actaully relax him.

Buster was at his worst for play-biting in the eveing, so I would get him to lay on the floor (before his loony play-bting started) while I held a toy for him to chew on and I would stroke him gently, keeping everything calm. He would actually fall asleep doing this. On the rare occasion he would get exited and jump all over me, so I would calmy, slowly, qiuetly lead him to the kitchen and shut him in there (behind a stair gate) for a few minutes, I would then lead him back out to the livingroom slowly, (if just let out, he would often run into the livingroom and dive on the nearest person ).

When he was bad for play-biting during the day, it was usually a case of him getting over-exited about something (visitors, the cat running around, the kids playing), so I would make sure I had something for him to direct his excitement on at these times (ie a cardboard box with treats in for him to tear to shreds), if he didn't lay down and occupy himself with that, he would be led to the kitchen to calm down and then led back out once calm. It took a long while, but he learnt that to stay with people he could not bite them!! He also gradually learnt that if he was exited he should lay down & i'd get him a toy to chew.
Now though, he'll lay down and put his paw up on a lap for a fuss (he likes visitors to hold his 'hand'), it's so much calmer and nicer than him chewing thier bums and head-butting them in a frantic, uncontrollable exited outburst! I would never have believed he would ever be this calm with visitors when he was 8/9 months old.
It was not easy atall to get this behaviour from him and took a lot of patience and complete consistency. The biggest battle I had was, due to Busters size, it would frighten my husband, so he'd yell for me to help him, or run out of the room. No matter how many times I told him this was making things worse, he couldn't grasp it, untill he saw that my skinny, little 9yr old boy could control Buster with 1 simple hand signal, the trick was, my son wasn't frightened and listened to me when I said stay calm - dont' ever shout, run or get mad.

I've struggled keeping Buster calm when meeting strangers, but he is generally better at meeting children, becuase they don't have the same fear as adults. 2 days ago I took Buster out and we were greeted by the usual group of little kids running at us, I said to the kids, 'stop, and remember what you have to do before you touch Buster' - one of them said 'sit', Buster sat and then all the kids piled around him fussing him, while Buster was hypnotised by a piece of cheese in my hand. That wouldn't be possible with adults as they see a big exitable dog, get frightened and don't listen to what I tell them. (I can tell what adults have no fear of Buster, as he'll listen to them if they say 'sit' and he will behave brilliantly around them).
Fear/frustration/anger can change how a dog reacts to you, especially a boisterous, exitable large dog that wants to play. They will not take your commands seriously if you are frightened and if you are stern/angry it can make the play-biting worse (my own take on this is they use play as appeasement, but I don't know if there is any truth in this?).

So, it's not just about what you say or do, it's how you say/do it, also you need to teach the dog what it should be doing in place of the behaviour you don't want, which will probably vary, depending on the situation that he's in.

Having read through all of your previous threads i am actually shocked that you have still not taken this dog to any proper traing classes. Messing about in the garden is not teaching this dog anything about how to behave in the real world in everyday situations. It seems like you have resisted every bit of advice you have been given to date.

Personally i think this dog is being failed as a result of inadequate handling more than anything else. so far i have been unable to find a single post by the OP that gives even the slightest inclination they are actually taking any of the good advice given and getting this dog into PROPER training classes rather than just faffing about for months on end completely losing control of him.. i don't understand why you have let this go on for so long & am afraid that you are going to ruin this dog if you don't get a grip.

Dougal is not misbehaving. He just hasn't been taught any different & that's an ownership issue rather than behavioural. In other words it is probably not the dog who needs training.

At the end of the day if you are not a part of the solution then you are a part of the problem, if you always do what you've always done then you'll always get what you've always got. Something needs to change in the way you are managing this dog if he is going to get past this stage and develop into a well balanced dog.

This dog (inspite of his health issues) has missed out on vital socialization at one of the most crucial points in his emotional development for the simple reason that time & time again the OP has repeatedly disregarded the advice she was given to get him into proper training classes asap.

Is it really any surprise he hasn't got a clue how to behave when he has never been given the chance to develop socially? There is little question that a lot of time and committment has gone into his physical health issues, but every thread so far indicates that the OP does not seem to have put the same amount of work into the socialization and training of this dog, which is why she is still having exactly the same problems with exactly the same behaviour.

Nobody can offer any better advice than you have been given already. It is up to you if you chose not to take it. You need to accept that the way you have managed this situation so far is not working & needs to change. Get the dog into proper training classes and at least give him a chance to develop properly otherwise he is going to become a nightmare around other dogs.

yes dougal has been taught everything all the regular guys have told us but no he hasnt been to training classes because of his heart he wasnt even supposed to be walked as it was all a strain on his heart and could kill him so we took cardiologist advise,he has also been diagnosed with over hyperactivity and excessive boystresnous which is mostly caused by bad breeding,unfortunately for us thanks for your advise flyball .

hi tes we know what that feels like he went for me tonight one minute was rubbing his stomach next he got up and went for me got to admit first time i shouted for my husband to get him off.i phoned our behaviourist he said he is over hper and has excessive boysterious prob due to bad breeding he said there is an underlying issue with his behaviour but needs to speak to vet to see about blood tests,he has had testosterone in plants but not worked yet,

oops spelling mistake meant yes not tes couldnt stop it sending.

>over hyperactivity and excessive boystresnous which is mostly caused by bad breeding

Wrong, I'm afraid. All young animals, of whatever species, are incredibly active and boisterous! When you see children running around in the school playground you don't think that they're so active because they've been badly bred, do you? No - it's what youngsters do! It's only when we're adult that we become more boring and sedate!

Training his brain won't adversely affect his heart at all.

>he has had testosterone in plants but not worked yet,

I'm sorry, I don't know what that means.

Who referred you to this behaviourist?

vet recommended behaviourist sorry if hit sore spot but im angry too some people over breed for big money and fools like me come along and buy one dont mean to be harsh bjut when you get vets telling you one thing behaviourist another we trying to do our best for this dog,i come on here for advise and to see if anyone else has gone through this for adviseand how to stop it,i dont think unless you have had a dog with serious heart problems it is fair for you to comment so harshly!!!   

> he has had testosterone in plants but not worked yet,

He has had a testosterone implant ??? why would he need added testosterone ?? He is way too young to have the Suprelorin implant & any vet using this on a prepubescent puppy wants their treatment questioning PDQ & the Suprelorin implant blocked the production of testosterone

& yes I've had dogs with life-threatening heart conditions

> ,i come on here for advise and to see if anyone else has gone through this for adviseand how to stop it

Yes, I have allready said MY DOG WAS LIKE THIS, but he was double the size of your dog. I could not leave my husband alone with the dog as he was too frightened of him, untill he listened to what I was saying to him:
It is normal behvaiuor, that will only get WORSE unless he is taught otherwise. Shouting, getting mad, being frustrated, not having patience, trying to rush things, pushing the dog away, running away, flapping arms/legs about etc.. will all make it WORSE as it just add more fun to the game.

>i dont think unless you have had a dog with serious heart problems it is fair for you to comment so harshly!!! 

His heart problems have got nothing to do with his behavior. My dog could hardly walk when he was 5 motnhs old, so missed out on a LOT of socialastion, lead-training and general training because he hardly moved, all that meant was his training & behvaiour was behind what it should be once he was fully mobile, it did not make a difference to HOW he was trainied, just as your dogs heart problem should not make a difference to HOW he is trainied. Also, once my pup was walking, he could only have VERY short walks, so I could not burn off ANY of his energy on a romp around, I had to TRAIN him while he was wound up like a clock-work-orange.

People here are getting frustrated, becasue all we can see is a young dog that is mis-understood that doesn't stand much of a chance of being trained into a welll-behaved adult dog as nobody around him (including the vet & 'behaviourits') appear to have any understanding of him :(

> he hasnt been to training classes because of his heart he wasnt even supposed to be walked as it was all a strain on his heart

You must be able to see the contradictions here?  You've mentioned that he is sometimes walked for 7 miles and you've also talked about doing exercises in the garden but you still think that he can't go to training classes...

Going to training classes is as much about training you as it is about training Dougal.  A good training class will provide you with a positive environment to practise commands, and learn how to encourage and reward correct behaviours.  A good trainer will observe your interractions with Dougal, give valuable feedback and perfect your timing.

Dougal's condition must not be used as an excuse for bad behaviour: yours or his.  You rather make it sound as though you think his breeding is completely to blame.  If you pretend that his behaviour is nothing whatsoever to do with you then nothing will change.  You have created the opportunities for Dougal's behaviour and the way that you react will shape what kind of dog he grows into.  Please read back through all the constructive advice you've been given. 

>i dont think unless you have had a dog with serious heart problems it is fair for you to comment so harshly!!!   

I don't own a dog with serious heart conditions, but I see some at work, and I know what their owners are able to do with them. The majority of them are very well-behaved and well-trained because their owners have put in the time and effort.

We also have several very badly-behaved dogs that come in that have no physical problems at all - they just have owners who haven't bothered putting in the time for kind, consistent training, so the dogs just have no idea what's expected of them and are completely out of hand.

I know this will sound rude/harsh (sorry)
But why are you keeping this poor pup if you dont really love and want him this is how you come across
in your posts
And i dont think this is any life for this dog he needs to be placed with some one that will let him be a dog and start to enjoy life even if it is only for a short time as this poor dog doesn't seem to have a happy life
so far he will just get worse as time goes by and this will mean he will be shut out all the time...
It has nothing to do with breeding it has to do with you and your understanding(or lack of it)of owning a dog...
Please take the time to talk with your hubby and do what is best for the dog and you....
Talk to Lab rescue and she what they feel could be done to help find him a home....
I dont meen to affend JUST FEEL SORRY FOR THE DOG AND FOR YOU NOT ENJOYING BEING AN OWNER......

Agreed. His heart condition cannot be used as an excuse not to let him take part in proper training classes. He isn't an invalid and treating him like one is what has caused the problems the OP is now having. Dougal wasn't born like this and I can't  for the life of me think why on earth a puppy of only a few months old would need to see a behaviourist, i am even more bemused that a 'behaviourist' would be so happy to make money out of something like this knowing full well it is not even a behavioural issue. I really can't put it any clearer.. this is a training issue & trying to convince yourself he has behavioural problems because of his heart is just denial. He is not incapable of going to a simple training class to learn basic manners & you need to understand that it is the way you have been managing him that is causing these problems NOT his heart. If you are not prepared to let him have a normal life then it will just get worse because the window of opportunity will start to close and the things you could change now through training classes will become habit/behavioural because you left it too late. As said before this dog is just desperately misunderstood, not naughty.

You keep saying he has been hiagnosed as being hyperactive, this is a very rare medical condition that involves specific toests to diagnose, very few dogs are actually hyperactive, just mis-managed. Given the right training and the right levels of mental and physical exercise he is probably no different to your average young lab.

> he hasnt been to training classes because of his heart he wasnt even supposed to be walked as it was all a strain on his heart and could kill him so we took cardiologist advise

So you walk him 7 miles over the fields, but don't take him to training classes because the exertion would kill him?

I think, harsh as it might sound, that the people who've suggested you get in touch with labrador rescue with an aim to rehoming have found the only solution to your problem. It seems the only way that you, and he, will be happy. Sorry.

If you won't take him to training classes, please will you contact a trainer from this list, who is local to you and does one-to-one lessons?

One thing that stands out to me is the fact that you have admitted more than once that you don't particularly like Dougal. Please please try and understand that the way you feel about him will have a direct impact on the way you interact with him. You have an underlying resentment toward him because he has something wrong with him which has cost you a fortune & spoiled your enjoyment of him, whether you are aware of it or not this will have a massive impact on the way you interact with him and you could inadvertantly be bringing out the worst in him.
In the cold light of day every thread you have posted about Dougal so far all boils down to the fact you don't really like the way he is and it does seem like you are not grasping the importance of getting him into a proper training regime. It isn't a matter of people judging you as a person but simply a matter of being realistic about the way you feel about him. If you look back on your previous threads you will notice that  you have had very few positive things to say about him & seem to focus more on what he can't do than what he can do. It is the way you feel about him that is the biggest problem here. you need to have more faith in him and his abilities, he is not mentally retarded or incapable of simple positive interaction with other dogs in a controlled environment & if you don't stop mollycoddling him and treating him like he is completely incapable of living a normal life you are going to stifle his development. What has happened to him is awful and very unfair but you can't change that so you need to accept it and work with it rather than fight against it. This does not need to hold him back the way it is doing so far.

I've hesitated about posting to you on several occasions:  my gut instinct is that you should give this puppy up - either to the breeder or if necessary to Lab Rescue.

On your first post - way back at the beginning of February, we had indications that cost was going to come into the ownership of Dougal - how much expense you had already been put to, and the fact that you wouldn't be able to use him at stud ....helloo - this is a 6 week old puppy we're talking about!!!

You've had lots of excellent advice from some of the most well-respected and experienced breeders of gundogs, did you but know it - and yet you're still going down your own road and coming back and now, less than six months later asking "should his mouthing bruise us and his grip hurt"???  You know it shouldn't - and, quite frankly, imo, you have spoiled this puppy - in all senses of the word - he has not learned discipline, he has not been socialised - and now he is 8 months old he is only going to get worse as he reaches adolescence.

For Dougal's sake, if not your own - give him up now, let someone who is prepared to work sensibly with him work with him and repair the damage that you have inflicted upon this poorly puppy.  

And - for what its worth - we have a 6 month old labrador puppy who is completely healthy - and there is NO WAY that she would be taken on 7-mile walks nor allowed to mouth and bite.

I'm sorry if this upsets you - but quite frankly, all your posts have upset me.

thanks lindsay, we have tried putting him out everytime then back in after couple mins then longer if he carried on,

OK, :) it's very unusual indeed for this not to work, if it's implemented absolutely correctly and consistently, could it be that it was only tried for a few days or that there is some other issue ... can't think what at the moment... preventing him from learning from this.

If he's popped outside is he on his own? what is he doing?
Did you mark the behaviour with a word such as "ah" said calmly?
did everyone do exactly the same?
were you able to put him out with out any fuss or did he try to grab you?
were you and every single family member totally consistent?

Do you reward him verbally or with food or toys for choosing not to bite?
do you redirect him onto a fav. toy which is wiggle to get his attention?

A few thoughts :)

I agree if it's too much it may be better to rehome him as he will sense you are feeling unhappy about him (that comment is meant kindly) :)

Lindsay
x

Yes I agree with Margot and Lindsay.

I am with Lab Rescue so please PM me if you wan to talk this through as I am sure we can help you as think he will be better off being rehomed to be honest for yours and is sake :)

breeder wouldnt take him back,if costs were still an issue he wouldnt be here yes in beginning as we were not sure if insurance would help with tests.

its not that we wont take him to training classes it is difficult as we have a daughter with tracheostomy who needs two people at all times,i cant drive,so it has been impossible with one thing and another then if it not our daughter its dougal been poorly this is no excuse and didnt want to post my private life.we do love dougal as if we didnt he wouldnt be here,we have also used a lot of advise from here even though some people dont think so,i did try and get a trainer to come to home but she never replied to my left message.she was closest to us.  thank you for list will find a trainer ,our daughter is hopefully going to have trachi removed by august so we will be able to leave her with someone as we have no one to care for her at moment noone wants to do it.

You have said "its getting to stage that we hate him even though  deep in my heart i dont never in million years thought a dog would cause my family so much stress,never again" - to me that says that this dog is causing you and your family - and dog - far too much stress.

You also say " i cant rehome him because of his heart it has cost us over a thousand up to now since end january,so couldnt put that burden on another family".   

Why can you not rehome him?   Lucy (LJS) is one of the wonderful people who do such good work with Lab Rescue.   They will find a family for him that are able to put in the time and patience and help Dougal become a good family dog.    As you say, the breeder wouldn't take him back - more shame on that breeder - but it alters the position not one jot.   You - and your family - have obviously invested a lot of money time and heartbreak into Dougal - but sometimes we just have to accept that whatever we are doing, we just aren't going to get it right - and I think that time has come with you now.    No-one is going to think less of you for accepting that this is not the dog for you - I for one would admire you for having the courage to give Dougal over to someone who has had more experience and who would be able to do something for him in what may well turn out to be a short life.

OK - you'll not get any of your money back - but really money doesn't come into it at all, does it?   Its what's best for Dougal and for you and your family.

thanks,i know i say i hate him but thats normally after he has eaten my limbs,i really do love him he is with me everywhere i go it is very difficult,he does need someone with lots of time.

And it would appear that you have enough on your plate at the moment with your daughter!  It's not going to get any easier with Dougal as he reaches adolescence - you must realise that.   He needs regular (and I don't just mean once a day) training, virtually 24/7 plus socialisation with other dogs/people - and from what you've said, you can't give him this at the moment, can you?