Where do I start?  GSD male 7.5 yrs old started to itch 8 months ago.  All allergy tests done including inhouse and out.  Bloods taken and York tests done -  biopsy also, all normal.  Regularly checked and frontlined, never seen a flea, ever! Coat is 'wrong', heavy moult but even ie. no bald patches. Its greasy/waxey to touch but skin not overly dry.  Itches and nibbles alot.  Fed on BARF (always ensuring they have everything, diet supported by my vet who thinks its great and the condition of my dogs normally speaks for itself) Havent over vaccinated (last one done at 5 years old).  Other GSD bitch who is 2 diagnosed with HD mite allergy at 6 months which is being treated with immuno therapy and piriton daily.  Steriods used when she is bad but she is off them at the moment. The mystery is with my boy as all the tests have come back normal and my vet has admitted he is at a loss as to why.  Recently been in contact with a holistic vet in Bath who makes supplement for all dogs so he is on 'super dog' supplement now but its early days.  He asked me all the questions which I think I have covered above and is at a loss as to why he itches and his coat is so poor now. Tried only feeding one protein source for a few weeks, then tried diet with no oils added (AllerG3, salmon oil is the usual one I use), tried leaving out the veg glop, upped the oily fish, left it out..you name it over the last 8/9 months I feel I have tried everything.  Bedding washed in just water, plug in air fresheners removed! Piriton doesnt help him so unfortunately he is on medrone e.o.d.  This is not ideal but it does help his bum as he has A.F aswell - poor boy, he doesnt deserve this aswell.
Can anyone recommend what I can try next?  I have tried so many things of which I have tried to remember them all but have prob missed a few out.  Any ideas anyone???

Hi,

I haven't tried this myself as I haven't had the need as thankfully my dogs haven't suffered with itchyness. However I have heard this has had great results.  There may be others on here that can help more.

Liquidised raw spinach or the defrosted frozen spinach cut up finely, try giving a spoonfull twice a day with meals.

I would be interested if anyone has tried this and what the results were.

Hi
they both have veggie glop which contains fresh spinach but only once a day.  Would this improve the coat I wonder? thanks for replying.

If you try this link and page down there is an article about raw spinach and a contact number

http://www.denrobchows.com/html/hot_spots.htm

> Tried only feeding one protein source for a few weeks, then tried diet with no oils added (AllerG3, salmon oil is the usual one I use), tried leaving out the veg glop, upped the oily fish, left it out..you name it over the last 8/9 months I feel I have tried everything. 

How many weeks did you try for?
My sisters dog has been having lots of skin/coat problems so the vet put her on an exclusion diet (tinned chappie & white fish), the dog was to remain on the diet for at least 8 weeks, strictly no treats or any extras atall. They wanted to do this before testing for allergies/sensitivities as some food triggers may not show up on tests (this is what my sister was told).  There has been such a dramatic improvement in the dogs coat that she is now staying on chappie & white fish. Treats/extras are very carefully being re-introduced one at a time.

When you say allergy tests have you done food intolerance as well ?

I would say that if both dogs have problems then maybe environmental if food has been ruled out ?

Food intolerence tests have been done as have environmental. My male (who the post refers to) has had neg/normal results.  My bitch who is 2.5 yrs old now was tested at 6 months with a positive to HD mites.

Each basic exclusion of food was done for 6 weeks each time approx (vet said you would see an improvement with the 1st week and then better etc) I tried the best I could but with two children and another dog I could not 100% guarantee that he didnt eat a crumb or 3 from under the table but that would have been all he did get if any! Luckily he will work for cherry tomatoes or cucumber so his training carried on!

This could be interesting to try, maybe I could give just spinach in his veg glop, I grow it in my garden so it will be organic and freshly available on demand.  As both dogs only eat a 'meal in a bowl' once a day the other food being bones/wings I wonder if once a day would be enough?

Ok describe the food intolerance routine you did including how long you excluded and what :-) Did you detail everthing in a diary ? If the vet said you would see an improvement in a week then I would be very skeptical as allergies if severe as seen in skin conditions rarely show significant improvement over a week especially of feeding barf because of the variety and frequency of the food they are fed :)

Basically, I tried giving only one type of meat for a month to see if there was even a little improvement. I had a dog once that had ear infections and smelt horrible, after taking her off complete and feeding her a natural diet her smell went completely  and her ears improved with the 1st week. By week two her coat was amazing and glossy. I thought that even if a small improvement showed then we may have an idea of what he cant tolerate.  I tried leaving out oils for one month and then veg for one month but had no improvement.  I had always suspected chicken to be a problem, dont know why, just had a feeling.  He has never eaten a wing in his life, he refuses.  He always has lamb bones of which I left out for a few weeks once but was concerned he wasnt getting what he needs.  I think I could have done it better, I feel a failure to him for not working out whats causing it.  I assumed the tests would guide me but they are all neg. Also, because he gets so uncomfortable he has medrone to help him, I wasnt sure how far into the exclusion to drop his meds to see if he was getting better, so i reduced it slightly but as soon as i did, his itching increased.

Here is some info on food trial re. food allergies:

Veterinarians used to recommend that a pet only needed to be placed on a special diet for 3 weeks but new studies show that in dogs, only 26% of those with food allergies responded by day 21.

A food trial consists of feeding an animal a novel food source of protein and carbohydrate for at least 12 weeks. A novel food source would be a protein and carbohydrate that the animal had never eaten before. Examples would include be rabbit and rice, or venison and potato. There are a number of such commercial diets available on the market. In addition, there are specialized diets that have the proteins and carbohydrates broken down into such small molecular sizes that they no longer would trigger an allergic response. These are termed 'limited antigen' or 'hydrolyzed protein' diets. Homemade diets are often used, as the ingredients can be carefully restricted. Regardless of the diet used, it must be the only thing the animal eats for 12 weeks. This means no treats, no flavored medications, no rawhide or pig's ears; absolutely nothing but the special food and water. In addition, the dog should not be allowed to roam, which may result in him having access to food or garbage.

There is no evidence that blood tests are accurate for the diagnosis of food allergies. Veterinary dermatologists insist that there is no merit in these tests whatsoever in the diagnosis of food allergies. The only way to accurately diagnose food allergies is with a food trial as detailed above

All thew above taken from here, there is much more info if you follow the link.

From reading the link, you can see how important it is that your dog does not have anything other than the diet, not even a tiny morsel.

Thanks for that info - is the general opinion, in his case, that it is more than likely a food allergy/intolerence?  If so, would his poo be 'wrong' as its pefect (sorry for detail!) So many unanswered questions its making my brain hurt trying to solve this.

> is the general opinion, in his case, that it is more than likely a food allergy/intolerence?  If so, would his poo be 'wrong' as its pefect

According to the link I put up, a food intollerance cause things like sloppy poop/vomiting, but a food allergy causes things like skin & coat problems, itching, ear problems etc.
So with a food allergy , poop can be perfectly normal.

My last dog could not eat chiken, if he did he would get itchy skin and get a bad ear, (this would happen even if he ate a tiny morsel, the more he ate, the bigger the reaction and the longer the reaction would last) but his poops were always perfect.

I notice he ha AF, poor boy. AF can also affect feet and ears and cause severe itching. Don't know about the coat though. I had a GSD with AF, but it only affected her rear. That was successfully treated with Cyclosporin (called Atopica now I think).  So as AF is considered an auto immune problem, perhaps the skin prob could be too. Atopica does suppress the immune system, so may help with both the bottom and the generalised itching if it is Auto immune.

K

Hi
Yes, he is treated with Atopica when his bum gets bad but it makes him sick so he is on it for the recommended time then he has time off it - my vet gave him some for his itchy skin (lower dose required for skin prob, higher dose for AF) but it came back with days of coming off it.  It is, as you are probably aware extremeley expensive (box of 15 which lasts 7 days is £70.00)  I have researched AF alot since his diagnosis and have not heard of it affecting other parts of the body apart from the anus. 

We had AF dog and when she her rear was really bad she was also very itchy and lost loads of coat on her back and sides and would nibble and scratch herself.
Our vet thought the two were related, losing of condition because of AF (stress to the body) and her skin problems.
She did do tests to rule out other causes and all came through clear.

Her skin condition improved greatly when she was put on Atopica and she never went back to losing her coat etc even though she did have to stay on low dose of Atopica for the rest of her life(5 years).
Has your vet tried lowering the amount greatly to see if it would keep his bum and skin in order?
I'm sure I have heard of dogs not even getting a dose everyday and this being enough to keep things ok.

Hi
One thing I have to be gratefull for is that his AF is mild and hasnt got any worse since he first had it which is 4 yrs now.  We tried him with Atopica using the recmd dose for atopy and reduced it down but the itching came back, it only seems to work if he stays on it everyday.  I suppose I am looking for an answer to his itching! Maybe I have to accept it as an unknown and medicate him for the rest of his life?
Someone at training club mentioned last night the importance of Vit B6, I checked to see if the supplement he takes from a holistic vet 'superdog ultimate nutrition' had vit b6 in and it does.  We have only just started him (1st week) on this supplement so time will tell.
Many thanks for your reply Noora.

Hi BarkingMad

Oh, yes, I am very aware of how expensive it is. I eventually purchased mine from chemist via private prescription, just finding the pharmacy which could offer the best deal. Luckily, we were able to gradually reduce the dose and wean her off it entirely over a 2 year period. When we first started though it cost us £300 per month, but getting it through a pharmacy reduced it to £180 a month!  We were sent on an AF drugs trial at Queen Mother Hospital for Animals in Potters Bar, and I met all the other owners and dogs who were also on the trial. It was then that I learned that it could affect other parts of the body, and a couple of dogs there had it on feet and ears.

I am glad though that you have it under control, it is a nasty disease and not all dogs respond to Atopica, sadly I was at the hospital one day when a poor couple had their 4 year old GSD put to sleep because nothing would control it, and I had been chatting to both them and their beautiful dog just before they went in. I was so grateful that it worked for us, and am so glad it works for you.

K

is the general opinion, in his case, that it is more than likely a food allergy/intolerence?  If so, would his poo be 'wrong' as its pefect (sorry for detail!) So many unanswered questions its making my brain hurt trying to solve this.

My dog is allergic to ALL food types, some worse than others and in answer to your question about poo being sloppy, No my dog does very normal firm poo unless he has an extreme reaction, which has only ever happened twice.
He is under treatment with a specialist at Newmarket at the moment as all food types make him itch and scratch and worse still he gets anemic (sp) because it causes him to bleed from his stomach and intestines where the food inflames it.
We have tried Atopica but it makes him very sick, so he is having a break for now and then next week I have to phone the specialist for the next step we take.

Just one obvious thing, you don't use plug in air freshners or air or carpet freshner of any sort do you?  Have you changed your washing powder?  Are you using fabric softner?  Changed your household polish or floor cleaner?

Hi
God, your poor dog! My vet suggested he is bathed in an head n shoulders type shampoo as his coat was so greasy/waxy/dull on thursday so I did. Wow, his coat looks fantastic since, for how long I dont know. To be honest it hasnt looked this good for ages.  We are also trying him on Atopica again with a different dose this time which we will 'tweak' to suit him.  Fingers crossed.  He has had the food intolerence test which have come back normal - are they not that accurate then?
With regard to air fresheners, my initial post does say that we have removed them all and only wash his bedding in water.  But, I hadnt mentioned cleaners, I generally use the same one so dont know if its them that are causing it. 
Since he had his coat cleaned we have noticed a huge improvement.  If I have to do it every few weeks to keep him more comfy then thats fine.

Thanks for you reply - big hug to your dog.

Hi
Just wondered if there is any update on your boy? Have you got to the bottom of his problem; sounds very similar to problems I am having with my GSD who is also raw fed
Thanks

Hi
Thanks for asking, I have noticed a huge improvement in his coat since adding this vitamin supplement - Higher Nature make it, its 'Super dog ultimate nutrition' made with the Holistic vet Nick Thompsons input, I spoke to his colleague briefly and she recommended it. He is on Atopica 100mg daily for his itching but he also needs this for his AF aswell so it does both conditions. His coat has also slowed down in the amount he was losing - it was more than just a heavy moult.  He has been on it 6-8 weeks approx and his coat is like a mirror.  I am so impressed with it I am now giving it to my GSD bitch who has a lovely coat already but has a HD mite allergy.
What's up with your GSD, hope he doesnt have AF aswell.

I have ordered some as you've suggested!

My GSD is only 5 months old. He has been itching all over since his 2nd vaccination (could be coincidence) and has tiny scabs on him tum. His skin seems generally sensitive all over when I groom him. Have so far tried removing all enviromental irritants, as I said is fed raw but could be diet related (next phase!)

He has been treated with advocate so not a flea/mange problem

Vet said allergy testing is inconclusive so not to bother at this stage

just reading through your original post again and realised I have a diffusing type air freshener; can't really see how it could be that as the dog has no contact with it (it's up on a shelf) but will throw it for good measure!!

The dog will breathe in the spray.

A friends dog face swells up if he is in a room where febreze has been used even without physical contact with the sprayed items.

Crikey!! Thanks, all smelly items in the bin (not the dog LOL!)

Its a minefield trying to find out what it is that could cause it.  My GSD bitch has a HDM allergy, the skin allergy tests resulted in a massive positive to them.  I don't have much luck with dogs, not stopping me getting a 3rd one tho - looking for a rescue rotty now.  Hope you find the answers and hope your gsd gets some relief soon.