Never used this site before, but looking for some advice so thouhgt id give it a go.
In June 2008, we adopted George a 2 year old springer who we knew was going to be hard work. (he had already had two homes and it was obvious he had been allowed to do whatever he wanted)The first six months were difficult. However with time and patience his behaviour improved and he is now a much loved member of the family.
Now it seems an old problem has resurfaced.
When we first got him, letting off the lead was something we we advised against, howver after a week of trying to tire him out on the lead we took a risk and let him off somewhere safe. With the aid of treats he bacame quite responsive and didnt run off once. He grew in confindence and started becoming much more springer like, rustling through bushes etc. He got to the point of cockiness and would often run away from us when it was time to go back on the lead. Especially when he had a stick in his mouth!! This stopped however and for the past six months walking him has been a pleasure, he has two off lead walks a day each lasting around an hour, then one round the block last thing at night. We have a routine which he seemed happy to follow up untill last week, when old behaviour creaped back. At the end of our walk he will wait at a style for me to put on his lead then we walk to the car. last week he decided he wasnt going to wait and went charging through, luckily someone caught him. Since then ive been putiing him on his lead before getting to the style. He has now become wise to this and is completley disregarding any recall, especially when he has a stick of which he is obsessed! This mornings actions are what has prompted this rather large post. It took me an hour to get him back on his lead, mainy thanks to a bounding young pup who wanted to play i managed to get hold of him. Im looking for any suggestions anyone might have as to how i can make him respond to me, like i say if he doesn have a stick he is fine. However when he does i cant get anyhwhere near him, i know this is a possesion problem. But it hasnt been a problem up untill now.
He needs to have off lead excersise otherwise he'slike a coiled spring(er).
Feel like ive droned on, but was so angry with him this morning. need some advice
thanks

In the past have you only put him on the lead at the end of the walk? Or have you recalled him, put him on the lead, walked a few paces then let him go off free again? If you do this several times during a walk, not always at the same place or the same number of times (they're clever!) he might be less likely to think that recall means the end of fun.

Another thought - when you're trying to catch him are you acting excited? By that I mean your voice getting louder and more high-pitched (with understandable frustration - we've all been there!) and grabbing out to catch hold of him? If so he's managed to turn recall into a fantastic game, where he gets loads and loads of attention and interaction from you. You could try calling him (just once - you don't want to teach him to ignore you) and if he doesn't come to you just sit on the ground and wait. No more calling, not a word. He's almost guaranteed to be fascinated by this completely new thing you're doing and will at some point not be able to resist coming to investigate - don't look at him or call him or grab at him - but if you have a treat in your lap he might well smell it and try to sniff it out. That's when you can hold his collar, give the treat, clip on his lead and praise, praise, praise!

Sticks aren't the best toy for a dog, but I've had one that was stick-obsessed so I know how difficult it can be to stop them! You could try playing with a different stick yourself, idly juggling it about, tossing it up and catching it, which might make him think your stick's better than his. Or you could do the same with a ball. Do you let him carry the stick home when you've eventually caught him?

Basically, coming to you must mean fun and reward, and never, ever a scolding.

Hi and welcome

Jeangenie has given some excellent advice.  Here's a few extra things to try:

* in addition to varying lead on/lead off whilst out on a walk, practise at home in the house and garden too.  If something good happens each time you call, and each time is different, a nosey dog can't help coming back as they never know what treats are in store!
* try walking before food - treats will always hold more appeal for a hungry dog
* save your best treats for training
* play time can work really well as a treat for a 'busy' dog
* if your dog loves toys and sticks try giving him his own carry toy.  My neighbours springer has her own fake 'sticks' for walking - she carries them out and back.  Some of her toys are only for walking and are extra special because of that

Finally, have you done any training courses with him?  It may be time to go back to the basics with him as some dogs can 'forget' everything they know with the right distractions! :) 

It takes time and patience and can somethimes feel like two steps forward, one step back but it may also have just been a bad day.  Chalk it up to experience and start again tomorrow.  Good luck

Thanks for advice.
most of what u have suggested i have tried. I often call him put his lead on then let him off again. I have tried the running after him approach but realised this only made the situation worse obviously.
If when i call him he doesnt respond i just carry on, ignore him for a while then try again.
I dont encourage him to have sticks, he just has an obsession with picking up the biggest one he can find. The trick of picking up my own stick usually makes him come running to me however he seems to have become wise to this too. I think the stick obbsesion is a possesivness issue, as he will not retrieve anything. he will run and get it but once he has it nothing can make him give it to you. However he will when at home. I did sit down this morning against a tree and didnt speak to him at all, however he was much more intersted in lying down and eating grass. As soon as i was up he off running around thinking it was great fun.
With regard to training classes it is something we considered when we first got him, but not something we followed up. Might have to revisit if the problem persists.
He's only been on an on-lead work tonight, but we'll see what happens tomorrow. Its so frustrating though as he has come on so much in the 13 months we have had him, it seems like were going backwards not forwards.

I have a rescue dalmatian who sometimes forgets his manners and reverts back to an old game.

I just completely change my routine. Differrent lead, different route, different time. Confuses him like hell and gets him guessing and taking notice of me again.

Works for me..

i agree with all the above and i'd take him to training classes that concentrate one the breed of dog you've got.a lady at my training classes also goes to classes with someone who trains gun dogs and she's learnt a lot about how this breed of dog needs a different kind of training.
Agility would also be great as this would use his brain and energy up at the same time. not all his exercise needs to be running around off lead these dogs love to find things you've hidden or chase a scent.
have a look and see if you can find a trainer for springers in your area i really think this would help.
Have you got a friend who you could walk with that has a dog yours loves to play with,i find that keeps the dogs attention and theirs less chance of them running off.
when you call him back for a treat try not putting him on the lead just make him sit then let him go again.if you always put him on the lead even if you let him straight back off he will associate coming back with being on the lead, so confuse him by not doing this for a few times first.        
best of luck, think training with the right person who knows your breed is the key and lots of patience with know telling off when he winds you up of course. 

> With regard to training classes it is something we considered when we first got him, but not something we followed up. Might have to revisit if the problem persists.

I'd be inclined to look at this sooner, rather than later.  Don't wait for it to become a problem

Bear makes a good point about breed specific help but have a look at KC Good Citizens training too.  You can download the sheets for bronze, silver and gold to see what's involved. A good trainer will have experience working with a lot of different breeds and personalities so should be able to help you find the most effective training methods for your boy. 

You'll learn simple commands such as leave, wait, stay, come, as well as walking to heel and giving up toys.  Some dogs find it easier to focus in a training environment such as a village hall and you may get him conditioned to respond quite quickly.  You and he should then find it quite easy to achieve the same results outside.  If you tell us where you are you might find people on here can recommend a training class.

Thanks for Advice.
Training classes are something i am deffinatley going to look into. There is a gundog trainer local to us, that we have used for boarding in the past, it might be worth giving him a call.
This morning he was fine, even if i did put him back on his lead earlier than i would nornally. The main problem seems to be that when he has something in his mouth whether it be a stick or ball, he just will not come back to me. I took lots of treats with me this morning and he came back to me when whistled as he responds beter to this than calling his name. It was text book. Then as soon as he's found a stick nothing i can do will make him come to me. It hasnt really been a problem as he has always waited by the style at the end of the walk, now however he seems to have forgotten this.

> The main problem seems to be that when he has something in his mouth whether it be a stick or ball, he just will not come back to me.

Will he come back to you if you have a stick/ball when he does? If not while you are carrying it/offering it to him, what about if you are playing with it, ie. chucking it in the air & catching it, with lots of exited noises?

If he has already got something in his mouth, he may come running to me if im playing with a stick or ball. But as ive used this as a means of getting him back on his lead in the past he seems to have become wise to it and will only come so close then run off again, or go back to the thing he already had. If he doesnt have anything in his mouth then there isnt a problem, its making him think that what ive got is beter than what he's got thats difficult. I know people will think i shouldn't let him off if i cant control him, but he is not an out of control dog, just one that doesnt like to be told what to do. If he could get the stimulation and excersise on lead then it would be ok, as i know lots of people never let thier dogs off, however because of his breed and nature on lead walks are not enough.

Agree completely about the exercise, how people can have a breed like a springer & only ever walk them on a lead must be terrible. I have neighbours with not 1, but 2 spingers & they are lucky if they get out on the lead once a month. They drive me mad barking in the garden, they must be going stir crazy.

Have you tried a squeaky ball on a rope? Use it in the house or garden, but only let him play with it for a very short time. Make a great deal of fuss when you play with it with him, but limit the time. Make him really want this toy, keep it somewhere where he can see it, but doesn't get it until you say so. Always make him sit before you let him hold it, play tug with him. Take it out with you on a walk & really go over the top when you produce it. Keep hold of it though, don't let him run off with it. As already suggested make sure he is hungry & take either liver, liver cake or cheese. I managed to turn my terriers behaviour around by giving her tasty treats & not always putting her on the lead when I shouted her. Good luck.

If he comes back as long as he doesn't have anything in his mouth, instead of working on the recall you could try workng on a drop command and leave.  So that WHATEVER he has in his mouth as soon as you say drop he will drop the stick.  You could start off with things he is not so interested in and then bring some sticks home and work him in the house and garden, on a long line before trying outside on a long line. That way hopefully you will be able to walk up to him. It sounds as though the recall has become an issue with him and this may divert his attantion from thinking about getting the lead on.  Alternatively a trainer advised me to stop trying to recall one of my dogs years ago and concentrate on sit.  So no matter where he was, as soon as I said sit he would do it.  This approach worked very well for this particular dog.

Good Luck

PS I haven't posted on here for a long time so hopefully this post will go on ok.

Hi,
Really appreciating the comments, and you all seem to be on the same wave length so im not being given conflicting advice. Today has been a good day. Took lots of treats with me on both walks and managed to get him back on lead easily enough. I think the advice about the leave it command is what is going to be most beneficial to him and me, as the main issue is his possessivness over whatever he is holding and making sure i dont get anywhere near it. I will try taking a squeaky toy with me tomorow as it may be good means of getting his attention, as the noise gets him excited. It may also be a usefull way of diverting his attention away from STICKS!
I know we'll get there, his behaviour indoors was a nightmare when we first got him mainly due to him picking up and eating absolutley anything, including food off our plates while we were. We managed to improve this behaviour and he has become a brilliant house dog. Its strange as we were told by the springer rescue that his previous owners had said he was not fully house trained and was destructive when left alone. In the thirteen months we have had him he has not messed in the house once, or chewed or wrecked anything when left alone. Its not as if he cant as he has the run of downstairs. I supose some people will say all sorts when they want to get rid of dog.

Look forward to seeing how tomorrow goes!

Thanks again

It sounds a bit as if he's playing "keep away" when he has sticks, which is a bit different from a recall problem, in my view.
I think it would be beneficial in the long run if you interact with him on walks with fav. toys (but read alot about how to use toys in training, eg the toy is "yours" and you "let" him play with it, he should be asked to do something for YOU to get the toy.... very basically).

Building up the relationship/interaction on walks will help a lot, plus general reward based obedience with using food or a special toy. Esp.teaching a play retrieve.

He will probably also really enjoy hide/seek/retrive games and be more willingto give things up to you, if he knows the reward is more games most of the time.

Sorry am rushing my reply a bit but I hope you can see what I am trying to say! :) and agree to never punish him even if you are really annoyed, as it will mean he is much less likely to come next time. I'd suggest using a harness and long line if you are worried he willfind a stick and play keep away, but it sounds as if the food rewards is really helping at the moment which is good.

Also check out this site for help:

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/table/behaviour-training/

Lindsay
x

I won't repeat the excellent advice people have already given, but would just add that if I were you I really would contact the gundog trainer where your boy is boarded. I personally feel this trainer's input could be invaluable in helping to channel his natural abilities as a springer to retrieve to hand rather than being possessive, to work to a whistle etc.. In the meantime I would go back to using a longline outside for a period just to reinforce the 'come' command/whistle.

Good luck with him!

You have all my sympathy! I have a pair of Welshies, and the younger of the two, now 16 months, was hugely impressed by the manic stick fixation of a neighbour's collies we looked after for a couple of days. Ever since then he has been completely obsessed with sticks and clearly expects to be a collie when he grows up. From the moment we get to the park he is on the hunt for a stick, but has decided that virtually anything portable will do. In the past month he and I have perfected his approach to become a fairly promising anti-litter strategy--no plastic bottle or tin can too lowly for his attention. As soon as he picks it up and runs off I recall him with a whistle, which he knows from all the other gundog bits we practice, and then tell him to "leave it" in the most menacing tone I can muster (pathetic really). He hopes this means I'll throw it for him, but we march off and put it in the bin. I occasionally remember to take a dummy with us for water retrieves and this really focuses his attention: the only thing better than a stick is a real live water retrieve, especially now that he's learnt that when I say "shake" he doesn't have to stand next to me first.

Keep persevering--my older Welshie, also a young lad himself but relatively sedate compared to Jack the stick nut, scared the living daylights out of me by casually leaping onto a 4 ft wall. It was the 20 foot drop down the other side to rocks and the river that had me almost collapsing, and it didn't help when I called him and he did the tightrope walker's wiggle ("Look, I nearly fell off but I'm still here!"). The only way I could get him to come down was to run like ****** in the opposite direction shrieking--just about exciting enough for him to give up on his wall of death and follow me. I guess if you haven't tried this with your boy you could give it a go. You might make the front page of your local paper as a dangerous lunatic spotted in the park, but then hasn't every springer owner run this risk at some point?

No one gets a springer of any description for an easy life. I'm off to get the grey hair fixed tomorrow. Keep us posted on your progress.

Hi,
Thanks for all the responses. Just thought id give an update on how were getting on. There has been a big improvement, in Georges off lead antics. Mainly due to me being consistant and with the help of lots of treats, and squeaky toy! I used to use treats with his recall when we first had him however when his behaviour improved i stopped as didnt feel he needed them. Re-inroducing them has been a big help, the suggestion of using a squeaky toy has been a help in getting his attention at the end of walk, and even got him to drop his sticks!! Giving it him as a reward when he's back on his lead seems to be working well.
There is still work to do, as he still wont come to me when he has a stick, although he will drop it at the end the walk. I feel like im not making much sense but hope your getting the gist. Basically im trying to say there hasnt been any problems getting him back on his lead since my last post. I still feel he is unpredictable but thats what u get with a springer. Because of this im still going to look into training classes, but on the whole there has been a big improvement.
Thanks again for the advice given, i think i was building the problem up to be bigger than it is, mainly due to my frustation i think.
Ill keep you updated on his further progress
Thanks again

That's excellent news! It'll be very much 'two steps forward, one step back', but as long as overall there are improvements then you have every right to feel proud of yourself. :-) Keep up the good work - it might be a long haul and there'll be timmes you want to tear your (and his!) hair out, but you'll get there in the end.

really glad your back in control of the situation, it feels good to make progress. i'd still start training classes again even if he's improved it can only help further.