Similiar to my breed MarianneB, many smaller dogs being put up and they don't look like the breed that I fell in love with and imported 17 years ago.  There are of course some that are small but still the correct shape, but they have really gone down in size recently, makes my larger ones (still in breed standard) look massive :)

Now I also have a small breed, now didn't go for this toy breed due to their pricked ears and baby looking faces, the truth of it is a long story, but I don't believe that is the reason many people pick toy breeds myself.

> Why did many breeds develop drop ears anyhow when the wild blueprint is erect ears.  I can't imagine it was because they looked more puppyish surely.....

The Africanis is one of the earliest aboriginal dogs in the world who ancestory has been traced as far back as the camps of stoneage man, through DNA and other artifacts from the time. They are still pretty much feral and they can have prick ears, drop ears or anything in between. My Africanis has prick ears, she was rescued from Mozambique when it flooded a few years ago. Her puppies were a mixed lot, Tilly had ears which tipped over like a rough collies, and the rest of the litter ranged from prick eared like Maxie to drop eared.

> I wonder if it is time to start measuring ALL breeds..........as fashion so quickly takes hold

I think that would be a wonderful idea!  I have had people comment on how small Cher is, and she is the desired height for a female, at 11.5 inches.  Her brother Sonny, is 12 inches tall and looks like a runt in the ring.  And the handlers know the dogs are over, that they are showing, but say "Hey, it still wins"  BUT it shouldnt, especially since dogs in my breed are supposed to be disqualified if under 10.5 inches, or over 12.5 inches. 

Thanks Polly, so drop ears were around in the wild aboriginal dogs too.  I came across another article that said drawings in Egypt (circa 1570) showed dogs with drop ears and curly tails.  I believe there was some drop eared wild dogs used to formulate the GSD too.  Interesting and when I think of the wolf and the wild blueprint, I think of erect ears.  I can't imagine wild dogs needed to evolve drop ears to appease humans so there must have been some other reason - prob a bit like asking why did a cat become a cat and a dog become a dog.... :-D

> Compare - VA1 Dingo vom Haus Gero http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/39.htmlwith modern day Zamphttp://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/341400.htmlPretty frightening I think, my monies on the former for herding sheep, so much more agile.

Thanks for putting up both for comparison Spender, yes my money would be on Dingo as well. He was born in 1978, which just shows that the breed started to go downhill after this, when breeding trends started to push the hindquarters further and further under the dog resulting in the likes of Zamp. It truly depresses me.

MM - I would be very curious to know what you think of VA1 Dingo vom Haus Gero? You have never ever commented when he has been brought into a discussion that you have been very active in.

Re Longcoats - Money? I thought the SV operated solely to 'protect and improve' the breed, so how does that fit in?

BTW If you asked which I would find more frightening - a baby or a wolf, I'd go for the baby being more scary every time :)

> MM - I would be very curious to know what you think of VA1 Dingo vom Haus Gero

He is a show line dog & of course closely bred to Canto & not my type of dog at all, he didn't have the firmness of temperament I prefer & of course he had no known ability of stock work. I doubt he would have had the temperament to work cattle who are far harder than sheep. He didn't have the strongest of heads.

He was also too light in colour/bone for me, I'm not a lover of the"brightly"coloured GSDs, he also had a rather"fine"coat

I'm no Zamp fan & as I keep stating I much prefer the working bred German dogs to the show line dogs, all my GSDs have come from working bloodlines & not the show dogs.

Perhaps just for once you will actually read what I write-I consider the Working(VPG/HGH)bred German GSDs as the correct interpretation of the breed standard & have always done so

Dingo had his faults, I don't believe there has ever been a GSD born yet that is perfect but in all fairness he was a nice mover in the extended trot for a show dog in comparison to what we have today. 

MM, I think most of us have read what you have written, you prefer the Working(VPG/HGH)bred German GSDs as the correct interpretation of the breed standard, that is crystal clear.  And I don't disagree with you.

Concern over the showline GSD has been expressed, in the UK and Germany, whether they are that person's cup of tea or not in linage, working or show, they are still GSD.  Many on this forum have expressed their view and many are not GSD folk, that doesn't mean that their opinion means any less or that they shouldn't have one.

To quote Helmut Raiser, the showline dog "is a dog in the front and a frog in the back'

Clemens Lux, manager of the German Shepherd Assn. based in Augsburg,

"We saw that these dogs can't go a long time with the severe angulations.  In the hind section, they are very weak,"

http://www.gsdcgt.com/la_times_article.htm

Even some in Germany have the backbone to admit that Germany's show dog is not at the excellence in health, working ability and conformation that I believe Germany would want.  Hind quarter movement being the subject matter of PDE on GSD's.  Hopefully this will change.. time will tell...

There's a study somewhere where they took wild foxes or something and selected purely for tameness and nothing else, and within a few generations they started developing drop ears, white patches and so on.

> Perhaps just for once you will actually read what I write-I consider the Working(VPG/HGH)bred German GSDs as the correct interpretation of the breed standard & have always done so

Well, yes we have all that message, but it becomes a bit mixed when you post in hot defence of Zamp and other GSDs that we are discussing, but then claiming that you're not a fan and wouldn't waste your time on them etc etc :

> Any reason you did not go to Germany to film Zamp at home ?? Wouldn't have cost much & you would have been able to show how is totally unable-oops able-to do VPG trials-wouldn't make good TV that would it & of course Zamp is not a KC registered dog either-now that you did miss out. Look at the poor crippled Zamp doing the fast trot at the Sieger-he can hardly stagger round the ring, which is just a bit bigger that the one at Crufts

> I'm no Zamp fan & as I keep stating I much prefer the working bred German dogs to the show line dogs, all my GSDs have come from working bloodlines & not the show dogs.

So, it would be fair to say then that you don't consider Zamp a correct interpretation of the breed standard? Just want to be clear on this point.

>There's a study somewhere where they took wild foxes or something and selected purely for tameness and nothing else, and within a few generations they started developing drop ears, white patches and so on.

The Belyaev experiment.

And I know that Wikipedia isn't always reliable, but there's more information here.

Here's a 1915 German Shepherd.

Some of these photographs are fascinating aren't they?

There was a lot about that programme I didn't like or thought was innaccurate BUT this is a programme I'd like to watch:

A balanced documentary that looks at some of our historic breeds and compares the pre war versions with the current show & working types.  I don't want to see either side pilloried but I'd find it interesting to look at how and why the changes have occurred.  Coupled with the 'fit for function' message from the KC I'd like to hear what further changes are being considered and how the breeds might look in another 50 or 100 years.

As an aside; I'm curious to know what impact some of these show sires are having on their breed.  There is one dog in particular that is showing up in nearly all of the youngsters I see scheduled in their breed classes.  If he's leaving such a strong stamp on these dogs what effect does that have on the future of a breed?

That is a fascinating picture. He certainly looks like he could work all day.

There are loads of historical pictures of other breeds there too. A fascinating collection.

>>> He is a show line dog & of course closely bred to Canto & not my type of dog at all, he didn't have the firmness of temperament I prefer & of course he had no known ability of stock work. I doubt he would have had the temperament to work cattle who are far harder than sheep. He didn't have the strongest of heads.

People who compete in the sport of schutzhund and breeders often like to quote the founder of the SV. But which point of view did von Stephanitz have? One can look it up in his book, The German Shepherd Dog In Word and Picture: "The true and most noble job of the German shepherd dog is of course looking after the herds and, as the name says, specifically the sheep herds."

>There is one dog in particular that is showing up in nearly all of the youngsters I see scheduled in their breed classes.  If he's leaving such a strong stamp on these dogs what effect does that have on the future of a breed?

His genes will permeate a large section of the breed and may ultimately lead to a one line bottleneck - not good!

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