>> It's all very well telling large numbers of people the problems but surely now is the time to advise how to source a puppy from breeders who are trying their damnest to breed the healthiest pup they can.Simple to say " dont buy pure-bred" but many, many folk want a specific breed and your 'message' next time could do a great deal to stamp out the disreputable, the money grabbers, the ignorant and the blood suckers who source a large percentage of pedigree puppies.

There are as yet no solutions to overcome the criminally stupid elements in Society. Education doesn't work unfortunately. The BYB's, the puppy farmers and bloodsuckers etc haven't increased, they were there all the time, and they were touting 'designer breeds' long before PDE. They may try and give themselves a boost by quoting the programme, but I repeat again there are as yet no solutions to overcome the criminally stupid, and it is more than likely they would have bought from them anyway. What irks me even more is the sale of puppies in Pet Shops - the respectable face of puppy farming. Now that is truly misleading as the public perceive that a high street outlet, especially as it is licensed will be a reputable source.

How about that Jemima - do an expose on where those cute little pups in Pet Shops come from. It would be a great stride towards reducing puppy farms if people wouldn't buy from Pet Shops.

Oh dear!

I usually stay well clear of the GSD discussions - not my type at all, and I know nothing about their ring craft - but I had to laugh a little at the YouTube clip:

Was it just me or did the first part just look like a bunch of owners running after their loose dogs in a park? :)

I'm sure the film quality doesn't help but it really only needed the Benny Hill music...

:-D @ dogs a babe

Have to agree - went past the GSD ring at a champ show once - it was like a cartload of monkeys had been dumped at the ringside-and that was the owners - the racket was unbelievable.

The GSD clips are more likely to make me agree that this programme was right, a proud and beautiful breed reduced to running like a hyena, such a shame. :-(

Have to agree - went past the GSD ring at a champ show once - it was like a cartload of monkeys had been dumped at the ringside-and that was the owners eek - the racket was unbelievable.

It was nice to see in DW last week that a judge in an adjoining ring to GSDs is making a formal complaint to the KC about all the noise and double handling -about time!

Have to admit we've always thought of the GSD exhibitors as making exhibitions of themselves + dog on end of a washing line! :D

At training a few weeks ago it was my week to do the going over the dogs routine a newbie to the GSd ring came in and proceeded to run up and down the mat with his girlfreind doing the shouting from the side. I stopped it right away and said no way were they behaving like that in our club, the man went a little ape at me to say the least, basically said I didn't have a clue LOL  ( I didn't about his breed of course) but they still were not doing it. It was a joke really.

It would be interesting watching if someone with a registered breeders licence, some top kennels do have them, decided to take the producers of this show to court, after all it could be proven that it has damaged their business reputation.  Baring in mind it is only the balance of probability in a civil case, do we think the majority would believe this show damaged someone's business?

Now for the everyday people like you or I who work hard at our breeds, nurture them but do it all as a hobby would not be affected and would not stand a hope in hell as we technically should not have anything to damage business wise but as I say the licenced breeders might :-)   I don't think anyone could really be bothered but I would like to see far more control with defamatory contents in all shows.

Dollface, did you ever breed from your Bostons?

Yes I did.... Not something I am planning on doing again (breeding) I prefer to just have a family pet that we can enjoy. My bostons are now 11, 9 and 8yrs old...

I still love my purebreds- but what I don't get is why do some breeders feel the need to mold the dog so extreme where it really does not benefit them at all?

>>Dollface, did you ever breed from your Bostons?
>Yes I did.... Not something I am planning on doing again (breeding)

My point is that did your dog/s pass all the tests required; eyes (glaucoma, cataracts, etc), heart, hemivertibrae ...? The programme was (supposedly) aimed at people who breed without testing - although the message that came across was that it was aimed at people who show.

Thumbs up to Jemima :)

So many people in denial so many breeds in crisis due to breeding standards

Well done for standing up for your beliefs and speaking out

Some people say that they are dog lovers

some people (like the woman on the film) say they would cull a RRB because it was born without the ridge

That's real love for you right there! *sarcasm!

Good ole Gemima eh? All that hard work solely because she was genuinely interested in dogs & not just because it made good TV. LOL

>The programme was (supposedly) aimed at people who breed without testing - although the message that came across was that it was aimed at people who show.

In addition to people who don't test, it was aimed at those who breed towards a health deformity to improve their perceived look of the animal to fit their perceived view of the standard.

If it is the show world where this practice is most common, as it is at this current time, then it is obvious that the show world will be the focus of attention however, I would consider this is be a secondary rather than a primary. 

Further, it was aimed at close line breeding but made a total hash of that.

No tests in the world can help loose hocks, folds in the skin, breathing problems due to the structure of the dog's face, etc, etc, etc.  Nor can tests help saturated genetics due to close line breeding over an extended period of time.

It worries me because I am coming across an increasing number of people that appear to think that testing is the 'be all and end all' and it will all be ok if we test and test without tackling the structure of breeds or saturated genetics. 

Tests are needed but comman sense needs to be employed too. 

(This is not addressed at you JG, you seem to have more sense, I seized your comment to make a point)

It worries me because I am coming across an increasing number of people that appear to think that testing is the 'be all and end all' and it will all be ok if we test and test without tackling the structure of breeds or saturated genetics. 

Someone after my own heart, only a slightly different angle I hear people saying I will lift endorsements if health tests have been passed, HELLO what about the quality, temperament and soundness of the dog.   It baffles me.

Fully agree Blue. This is what my puppy contract says:
The breeder will arrange for the breeding endorsement to be lifted at a suitable date should the new owner wish to breed, provided that the dog has been hip scored within the breed's normal range, has been eye tested clear, is of sound temperament and general health with no major conformation faults according to the KC breed standard, and that any potential plans for breeding is discussed with the breeder in advance.

It worries me because I am coming across an increasing number of people that appear to think that testing is the 'be all and end all' and it will all be ok if we test and test without tackling the structure of breeds or saturated genetics. 

Totally agree- Maybe they should do another show on the structure of the breeds ect ect really the show ring is a huge factor on our dog breeds today to have a certain look and mold them into what we believe they should look like. The boston Yes does not look anything like the way they use to look, but they were also bred for dogfighting and now have been bred to be the gentelmans dog.... Maybe breeders of today can look more into the benefits and draw back of a breed and try to breed away from faces to pushed in (brack) breathing broblems ect due to this, or not able to free whelp because the heads are so big and the pelvic so narrow.

When I got my first boston I new nothing about breeding, registered, tests ect ect, never even had a computer- so I was really nieve about it and have no problem admitting it- one reason why I don't think I would ever breed again- Not going to say never but Iam thinking never- I really enjoy just haveing our pet and enjoying them as part of our family. When I did I put everything into them and temp ect stayed home from work- helped with whelping and lived with them in my room till pups were about 2 weeks- my life was puppies. I no alot goes into having pups- one reason why I don't think I want to venture down that path again....

>It worries me because I am coming across an increasing number of people that appear to think that testing is the 'be all and end all' and it will all be ok if we test and test without tackling the structure of breeds or saturated genetics. 

Absolutely - but testing shows that at least the breeder's aware of problems and is trying to avoid them. Not testing (or worse, testing and ignoring bad results) shows a lack of care. 'The look' and good health aren't incompatible, with care.

It's the ones who say that testing doesn't matter because "they're only breeding pets, not show dogs" who really annoy me. How insulting to pet owners can you be?? Their dogs matter just as much as show dogs.

Further, it was aimed at close line breeding but made a total hash of that.

It made the KC ban the mating of first-degree relatives, it has prompted real discussion about the rights and wrongs of inbreeding - and genetic diversity is a major focus of the various reviews, out of which I hope will come some new guidelines and with a bit of luck prompt the inclusion of COIs on KC pedigrees.

No tests in the world can help loose hocks, folds in the skin, breathing problems due to the structure of the dog's face, etc, etc, etc.  Nor can tests help saturated genetics due to close line breeding over an extended period of time.

Yes this - and JeanGenie's point re health tests - is very important.  There are breeders in the USA who market their puppies as having had loads of (sometimes unnecessary) health tests as if this in some way proves quality and health. But health tests are not really health tests - they're tests for horrible hereditary diseases, and only a small part of the story of a healthy dog.  True health tests would measure lung function, hearts, sight, speed, stamina etc. So while health-tests are really important, they must be seen in context - as, indeed, must COIs.

On a related note, this was a seminal article for me - from Dan Belkin, a scientist and a saluki man:

http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/belkin.htm

Jemima

When can we expect a programme about BYB's Exposed? You seem to be chosing to overlook the fact that 'That programme' had a very damaging effect not just on Pedigree dogs, but also on Joe Public's perception of all pedigree breeder's in general.

You surely cannot have failed to have noticed the explosion in badly bred pups being advertised as being 'Healthy, not like KC ones' that was launched off the back of the programme?

Jemima said:

>So there's no epilepsy or SM in show-bred dogs then? Of course there is. And there's no evidence to suggest show-stock is any less affected than non-show stock.

So another way of phrasing that would be 'there is no evidence to suggest show stock is any more affected than non-show stock' it means the same as what you just said, but puts things in a different light. Your programm implied that show dogs are awfull, full of health problems and that non-show dogs/cross-breeds were healthier, yet here you say there is no evidence to prove they are any less effected than non-show dogs!!!!!

This is where the 'twisting' of things is happening, - very carefull phrasing by you for the programme that gave the GP the totaly wrong impression.

Truth is always the best, but when it is told out of context it can be a very misleading thing :(

Sorry to all if i have covered something allready brought up, I haven't read the whole thread yet.

>It made the KC ban the mating of first-degree relatives

Yes, I know and I don't really get it...

A one off first degree mating in a ped from totally unrelated lines is no way as inbred as these 5 gen peds I come across heavily saturated on one or two dogs and siblings of those same dogs, go out the back of the pedigree and we come across the same dogs again.  So the KC have banned the mating of first degree relatives which really means very little and in doing so, endorses the breeding of saturated genetics by doing nothing (this is the real issue) on the back of PDE but that's ok as long as there isn't a first degree mating???

This is nothing more than a smokescreen. 

>it has prompted real discussion about the rights and wrongs of inbreeding - and genetic diversity is a major focus of the various reviews, out of which I hope will come some new guidelines and with a bit of luck prompt the inclusion of COIs on KC pedigrees.

I hope so too...

Flyball asked > When can we expect a programme about BYB's Exposed? You seem to be chosing to overlook the fact that 'That programme' had a very damaging effect not just on Pedigree dogs, but also on Joe Public's perception of all pedigree breeder's in general.

Good point - so Jemima Harrison, I'm throwing down the gauntlet at you - make your next production on BYB's Exposed and see if you can regain any of the respect you have lost from genuine, passionate dog owners/showers ......after all, your company is called Passionate Productions, is it not?

I'll be waiting to hear of this in production ......but I'll not be holding my breath!

Margot

In all this has been very interesting and I wish I never missed the first thread on this- which I think I did....

Really gets ur brain going and seems like it just ends in circles in the long run :-(

In the dogshows do you think they are gonna try to not mold the breed so much to fit our likes but more so for the animal involved? Like the bulldogs, the shepherd with the wobble legs, very sloped back end ect ect- do you think they will try to breed away from those defects and breed more for the quality of the animals life not the way we think they should look? Personally I think if an animal is in need of a c-section to have babies everytime it is bred then thats not something so great for the animal and maybe there should be a program to mold this animal differently where it benefits the animal more- certainly this does not benefit the poor bulldog or any breed with big heads and such narrow pelvics that it cannot ever have a normal birth. Breeders surley can breed to benefit the animal in this day and age Iam thinking?

"A one off first degree mating in a ped from totally unrelated lines is no way as inbred as these 5 gen peds I come across heavily saturated on one or two dogs and siblings of those same dogs, go out the back of the pedigree and we come across the same dogs again.  So the KC have banned the mating of first degree relatives which really means very little and in doing so, endorses the breeding of saturated genetics by doing nothing (this is the real issue) on the back of PDE but that's ok as long as there isn't a first degree mating???"

Yes, you're right re a one-off very-close breeding in an otherwise outcrossed pedigree - and I think there should be some wiggle room on this. But I think as a default the banning of the mating of first-degree-relatives is good one, and sends quite a potent message about inbreeding.  Re the bigger problem of generation after generation of inbreeding, there is a lot going on behind the scenes and I believe it will be addressed.  My hope is for some sensible breed-specific guidelines worked out in collaboration with breeders/breed clubs, rather than a one-size-fits-all solution, as clearly the genetic situation is different in every breed.

Jemima

>certainly this does not benefit the poor bulldog or any breed with big heads and such narrow pelvics that it cannot ever have a normal birth.

baby and bathwater situation. There are lines of bulldogs which are self-whelpers - it'd be wrong to class the breeders of these in the same category as those who have elective caesarians performed every time.

"...so Jemima Harrison, I'm throwing down the gauntlet at you - make your next production on BYB's Exposed and see if you can regain any of the respect you have lost from genuine, passionate dog owners/showers ......after all, your company is called Passionate Productions, is it not?

I'll be waiting to hear of this in production ......but I'll not be holding my breath!"

We have no immediate plans for us to make a film about BYBs/puppy farms, although if someone commissioned us to make one, I'd be delighted to make it.  Again, there is quite a lot going on behind the scenes to address the issue of puppy farms which I hope will be effective.

Of course, it would help if the KC stopped registering puppies from them.

One of the problems here is definition. There are showbreeders who have sheds-full of dogs in crates who I would classify as puppy farmers. There are BYBs who are careful, health test and raise strong, healthy puppies. There are even one or two big commerical breeders who do a decent job.  What is needed is a minimum standard that would cover the breeding of ALL dogs, whether KC-reg'd or not, purebred or crossbreed.  Again, am hoping this will be addressed in upcoming plans.

Jemima

"So another way of phrasing that would be 'there is no evidence to suggest show stock is any more affected than non-show stock' it means the same as what you just said, but puts things in a different light. Your programm implied that show dogs are awfull, full of health problems and that non-show dogs/cross-breeds were healthier, yet here you say there is no evidence to prove they are any less effected than non-show dogs!!!!!"

Yes you're right... there is no evidence to suggest that show stock is any MORE affected than non-show stock in the case of epilepsy or SM. In my defence, I said the above in answer to someone who was challenging the use of two non-show-bred dogs that were used to illustrate the horrors of epilepsy and SM, as if somehow they would suffer where showdogs don't. That's clearly not the case.

The whole point of the film was to argue that those who claimed to be the guardians of pedigree dogs (KC/breed clubs/individual breeders) were wreaking considerable damage on them - sometimes unwittingly, sometimes knowingly.  It really IS the show-ring that is responsible for distorting some breeds to the point where it causes health and welfare problems. Competition DOES sometimes bring out the absolute worst in people.

Would you protest more about, for instance, your next-door-neigh bour who never pretends to be anything other than a serial adulterer or, say, a church leader who preaches fidelity who has has been having it away with half his parishioners?

I believe that breeders DO on the whole want to do the best for their dogs. But it's sometimes hard for them to see outside the box - and in the KC, the dog world has suffered from weak leadership regarding health and welfare.

Hopefully that is now changing.

Jemima

>There are BYBs who are careful, health test and raise strong, healthy puppies. 

Really ??????

One definition of a BYB

Backyard Breeders
    --Anyone who has a litter for fun, profit or by 'accident'.
   -- Anyone who is so uninformed that they think having KC papers means that
    their pet is breeding quality.
      --Anyone who thinks that by finding their puppies good homes that they
    somehow don't have to play by the rules or take responsibility.
    --Anyone who thinks they found their litter good homes, simply because everyone that took one, smiled honestly and 'promised' to treat them well.. Thus insisting on no background check, no enforceable contract or any type of follow up. They most assuredly will provide erroneous information to the potential adopters regarding the required care and treatment necessary for the pet -lying simply for their own personal gains.

A description
They just breed dogs for the sake of it.  They may have a sweet pet they want to try and reproduce or they think that their dogs are quality because they have papers and/or are registered with some registry. They think maybe they can make money selling pups, etc. They just put out dogs without real consideration for the future of not only the breed but the puppies produced.

Often, BYBs breed dogs with faults.  This perpetuates fault and problems in the breed. They do nothing to prove their dogs are of sound temperament and that they are breeding good representatives of the breed, etc. They just breed. And often, they do not even breed purebreds. Some BYBs "create" neat sounding things and think they are breeds - like Dalimers.  This was seen listed as a rare, German breed.  Well, they are crossbreeds( Dalmatians and Weimeraners) nothing more than a back yarder trying to make a buck

>There are even one or two big commerical breeders who do a decent job.

Wow Puppy farmers who health test etc ??

Can you point me in the direction of these BYB & Puppy farmers who buck the trend & breed only to improve the breed concerned & supply a lifetime of back up.

Why do you have to be commissioned ?? Why not make the program & sell it to the highest bidder ?? You could feature the good BYB & Puppy farmers so the GP know where to go for a non KC registered fully health tested pedigree puppy

> In my defence, I said the above in answer to someone who was challenging the use of two non-show-bred dogs that were used to illustrate the horrors of epilepsy and SM, as if somehow they would suffer where showdogs don't. That's clearly not the case

No you never mentioned the fact the dogs concerned were not bred by show breeders nor KC registered, had you done so you would not have unleashed the myriad of adverts for"healthy because they are not KC registered puppy adverts"& fueled the continuing production of puppies by(the non responsible)BYB & Puppf Farmers.

You could even have highlighted the BYB & Puppy farmers who produce healthy puppies & offer the lifelong back up the others don't, perhaps you would like to name these paragons of virtue who breed these lovely puppies without the KC registry being involved on here?

No where have I ever put tate KC bred dogs from show dogs do not have SM or epilepsy, after all I have two living dogs that have SM & have had 3 others in the past all bred from show dogs. The new puppy I have is from two generations of health tested parents & in time I will be having him MRI scanned, etc, but he will not be at stud ever.

>Would you protest more about, for instance, your next-door-neigh bour who never pretends to be anything other than a serial adulterer or, say, a church leader who preaches fidelity who has has been having it away with half his parishioners?

What have the morals of humans got to do with breeding dogs ?? I cannot see the reasoning/relevance of using this allegory

Unfortunately, the net result of the programme in the U.K. is that it will feed the craze for "designer crossbreeds" where you can guarantee that neither stud dog nor bitch were tested for any genetic health problem.  I've seen the result trooping into my vet's surgery as cute little crosses show up for surgery to fix inherited eye problems (my vet is an eye specialist).   I have acquaintances with large breed crosses with the leg structure of one breed trying to support the body of a totally different breed - and failing. 

So now in addition to those people who "just want a dog and want it NOW" and are ignorant of the need for any genetic testing and will continue to plop their cash down for a puppy of their chosen breed from the nearest and cheapest breeder with a litter ... we will now have even more of the misinformed and equally ignorant who think somehow that a crossbreed will guarantee health.   

The aim of the programme seemed purely to sensationalize, in that it succeeded.   If it does some good in terms of fixing the long-standing problems in some breeds, that's great.   The big fat shame of the programme was it did NOTHING to educate the puppy buyer who does want a specific breed about how to go about finding an ethical, responsible breeder.  Nor does it tell that potential owner how to find out about genetic test the parents should have, etc.

I would like to have seen the epileptic boxer's pedigree (if it exists) - did 'inbreeding' cause his seizures?

I have 2 GSD's who have been hipscored & sometimes stand a bit 'wobbly' on their backend, IMHO due to their narrow/long body shape, NOT their hips status (both have low scores). They both run like the wind & are breathtaking to watch. I can only equate this to another large working breed I have & they are more like a coffee table in build, a leg in each corner, one has a hipscore the same as the GSD but he stands solid (can't run as fast tho)!

One of my jobs brings me in contact with breeders & of the 4 litters of RR's I have seen, not one breeder would contemplate putting an otherwise healthy ridgeless puppy to sleep.

Just my take on this subject.

> MM will defend the indefensible in her view of the GSD to the end

mm promotes the german idea of a gsd that insists on a barrage of health and temprement testing. what part of that is the indefensible?

> mm promotes the german idea of a gsd that insists on a barrage of health and temprement testing. what part of that is the indefensible?

Don't forget the proven working ability ;-) can't be having that can we ?

> Why do you have to be commissioned ?? Why not make the program & sell it to the highest bidder ?? You could feature the good BYB & Puppy farmers so the GP know where to go for a non KC registered fully health tested pedigree puppy

lack of passion for the production i suspect...

> Don't forget the proven working ability ;-) can't be having that can we ?

well quite. if they are fit and able to work, pass all relevent health tests and behavioural tests what is the problem? if the style inhibited their lives at all then it would be wrong, however it doesn't

The indefensible is the fact that these dogs are bred with roach backs that don't allow for freedom of movement. IMO (and many others who know the breed well) even when gaiting they look awkward and uncomfortable. This is a direct result of the SV's 'push for push'  The 'hunchback' dogs shown in the clip don't look comfortable in any stride, and the instability in walk and stand is painful to see. That is what I consider indefensible. The roach back is a major fault in GSD conformation, that simply cannot be argued nor defended, and I understand that even the SV are becoming concerned at this development. A case of breeding for one characterist being overdone. It in fact horrifies me that this clip is put up to show what marvellous movement they have - they don't. Spender once put up a link that showed what a GSD should look like when gaiting and it was beautiful. These dogs are a parody in comparison.

BTW MM, I hear that the SV is now accepting long coats into it's 'hallowed' halls :)

> BTW MM, I hear that the SV is now accepting long coats into it's 'hallowed' halls

It was discussed & they will have a separate registry & not be allowed to become part of the main gene pool This will start in 2010

BTW have you ever seen a VPG/HGH german GSD in the flesh ???? Did Spender's clip show a dog with working qualifications ? or was it a show dog ? was it gaiting off lead ? or strung up on a piece of cheese wire ?? You can slag off German dogs as much as you like & stick to your type(whatever that maybe)I prefer(& always have done)the Working bred German dogs be they HGH or VPG-to quote "brains & beauty"

>Don't forget the proven working ability ;-)

MM, I think you need to a bit more digging about working ability in show; it's no secret and been talked about in many GSD circles, how some get their dogs to prove their working ability...

>It is being discussed only

From what I hear, it's official in the SV since the last "Bundesversammlung". It should start at the beginning of 2010 with separate rings in the shows and the Körung.

>Did Spender's clip show a dog with working qualifications ? or was it a show dog ?

It was a show dog MM; isn't that what we have been discussing - the dogs on the PDE clip - West German Showline dogs

> MM, I think you need to a bit more digging about working ability in show; it's no secret and been talked about in many GSD circles, how some get their dogs to prove their working ability..

??????? What ?? the VPG/HGH bred dogs have dubious qualifications ???

I've been to a lot of Korungs & VPG trials & the VPG judges are not"swayed"by the breeders/owners of the dogs, if a dog fails it fails QED. Petra has trained/handled show dogs through their Korung/VPG qualification & does nothing different to what she does with her working dogs, she's never had to cheat to get dogs through the trials

You stick to love of English dogs(with no qualifications at all-& most are not health tested at all)& trot them round the ring. Will you be at the UK club's show in November ? Admiring the beautifully sound athletic dogs that can just about do 3 circuits of the ring if the handlers don't go too quickly. I do so admire the lovely cheese wire chokers they wear up under their ears.

>I've been to a lot of Korungs & VPG trials & the VPG judges are not"swayed"by the breeders/owners of the dogs, if a dog fails it fails QED.

Nobody said anyone was 'swayed', and that is all I'm saying but it is no secret in GSD circles, if you want to know more, just do some digging...things are not always whiter than white...

I have 2 GSD's who have been hipscored & sometimes stand a bit 'wobbly' on their backend, IMHO due to their narrow/long body shape, NOT their hips status (both have low scores). They both run like the wind & are breathtaking to watch. I can only equate this to another large working breed I have & they are more like a coffee table in build, a leg in each corner, one has a hipscore the same as the GSD but he stands solid (can't run as fast tho)!

If it is due to the fact of narrow/long body shape then shouldn't this be bred away from and not for in the breed of question? Would that not be a benefit to the breed?

Even with boston terriers, french bulldogs, pugs, bulldogs peeks ect I love the pushed in face but I do think if we breed for more of a snout and not so big of a head it would def benefit the dog more with breathing ect- after all the show ring should be looking for how can we make this breed better to eleminate these defects and problems not make them worse. They shouldn't need surgery because of there pallet and can't breath properly to correct it, this should be what breeders are trying to correct in the first place. I heard Sharpie's (sp) correct me if I am wrong need surgery on there eye's, why is that? shouldn't this be something that is bred out of the breed and not continued? Just lil things like this would it not benefit the animal more if bred away from, give them more of a snout, not so bulgy eyes, not so big of a head, ect ect-

Just figure if breeders tried to better the breed what in your breed would you breed more for to eliminate certain problems?

Bostons: A longer snout- not so pushed in, eye's not so bulgy, smaller heads so more able to free whelp, just to name a few might actually benefit the breed more... I personally think this has to start in the show ring.

> - after all the show ring should be looking for how can we make this breed better to eleminate these defects and problems not make them worse. They shouldn't need surgery because of there pallet and can't breath properly to correct it, this should be what breeders are trying to correct in the first place.

kc breed standards have been changed, admittedly prompted into speed by this program but a review of the standards had been going on for years before they changed them. the nudge the program gave to get them to get on with it is about the only good thing to come of it imo

> heard Sharpie's (sp) correct me if I am wrong need surgery on there eye's, why is that?

SOME sharpies need surgery to keep the skin out of their eyes, but far from all. badly bred ones do, and the breeders who do such sould be named and shamed- however those who deliberately breed to avoid such issues should be applauded- not lumped with those going for the 'wrinkles are cute' sale

> Even with boston terriers, french bulldogs, pugs, bulldogs peeks ect I love the pushed in face but I do think if we breed for more of a snout and not so big of a head it would def benefit the dog more with breathing ect

what did you breed for dollface? sorry if i missed the answer earlier but someone asked if you conducted all the appropriate health tests and i may have missed the answer?

of course you should not breed for extremes, and breeders that risk the health of their dogs to do so are negligent and cruel, however that label does not apply to every show person or breeder- examples off the top of my head from just this forum- gwen i belive will not breed again from a pug bitch who had whelping probs and be think says she won't whelp a daughter of a non self whelper? brainless knows her breeds pedigrees backwards and is very careful to avoid in breeding in a numerically low breed- did she not travel to a stud in norway fairly recently or something to get new blood?, mm isn't breeding from one of her dogs due to a health test failure and there a loads and loads more examples.

> Just figure if breeders tried to better the breed what in your breed would you breed more for to eliminate certain problems?

i'm not a breeder but i'd like to see manditory health tests and temprement testing. i would love to see a test for cruciate issues but since they are often environmental its not really do able.

i want frenchies in the future and will be buying from a line with a desirable level of face but without problems because of it- they are out there, in fact every frenchie i've know wells only breathing issues were a tendancy to snore. since i do the same who am i to judge :) they were in every other way athletes and not inhibited at all.

I would like to have seen the epileptic boxer's pedigree (if it exists) - did 'inbreeding' cause his seizures?

Neurovet Clare Rusbridge says she is seeing more boxers with very severe epilepsy, which would suggest a familial link, but it's impossible to say if inbreeding is responsible for Zak's seizures because we don't fully understand the genetics. As it happens, Zak is the progeny of a brother/sister mating, something we didn't mention this because it's perfectly possible that there is another reason for his seizures.

Jemima

>As it happens, Zak is the progeny of a brother/sister mating

Was Zak bred by a 'show' breeder?

>sometimes stand a bit 'wobbly' on their backend, IMHO due to their narrow/long body shape

We have a 18 month old GSD show line bitch here at this very moment, belongs to a friend of a neighbour.  She's long and lean but as coordinated as the next dog with no wobbliness in the hind quarters at all. 

A Zamp daughter I know, German import, again show lines and successful in the ring, not a wobble in her either. 

Met a police dog at hydro this morning, German working lines - beautiful, fully in control of those hind quarters and a lovely gentle sloping top line.  Not a wobble in sight, not oversize, just an all round lovely normal dog. 

They do exist, it just amazes me that some in show, (I think it's more males than females to be fair) are rewarded as winners and yet the hind quarters look like the early onset of DM or other neurological defects.

> As it happens, Zak is the progeny of a brother/sister mating
> Was Zak bred by a 'show' breeder?

Nah ...can't have been, JG - otherwise it would have been mentioned ;)!

Judicious editing imo!!

> Nobody said anyone was 'swayed', and that is all I'm saying but it is no secret in GSD circles, if you want to know more, just do some digging...things are not always whiter than white...

Why do I need to go digging ? My next GSD will be from VPG working lines from a breeder who does not need to falsify her her dogs abilities by cheating to get the qualifications. She trained a farm bred British BC to Sch H III without a problem & he was her first dog. I have no reason to waste my time with Show, English dogs etc as I would never own one, all my GSDs have been from working lines starting with my first who was from 2 HGH imports back in 1958

what did you breed for dollface? sorry if i missed the answer earlier but someone asked if you conducted all the appropriate health tests and i may have missed the answer?

The answer to your question, I was very nieve when I got into this- new absolutly nothing- had no clue about health tests ect ect- never had the net- and it wasn't until my 3rd and last litter that I got the net and was disgusted at myself for what I found out- never new dogs needed tests ect... Reason why I never got another bitch to breed from- was looking into a registered female. When I was looking into all that I was also surfing the net, thats how I came upon all this info over load...

Tiva is very bully but I found her back end to be about the same size as her head so to speak- pushed in face ect, bulgy eye's... She was suppose to come with papers but the breeder my breeder got her parents off of never gave the papers for her mom- found out later the lady never papered the parents- then a couple years later she is now breeding 10lbs registered bostons- really irked us... Yes that should have raised flags there- but like I said new nothing and I was young to.... I think if the head is so much bigger then the back end more then likely c-sections. I took temps 2 weeks b4 due date and had many long nights b4 and after pups were born- missed work 4 sure once her temp droped- even had hubby taken temps and left work cause he said it dropped but he didn't do it at the right time- she ended up dropping the next day- even bottled fed the last litter for 48hrs due to c-section- that I would never want to do again- so scared I was gonna lose them- her milk finally dropped. Her second litter took almost 3hrs a pup and was on phone with vet just incase- I turned pups around could tell one was stuck and when I moved him he came out with 2 others to follow- sometimes I think these oxytocin shots/sections are not needed and its a matter of moving pup around just like us, cause once I helped get the lil one out 2 others followed-

Junior is registered and has been tested for Juvinile cateracts and is not a carrier- he is alot more terrier looking- of smaller build, more of a snout and smaller type head, not really bulgy eyes either... He ended up having his eye removed (long story- fang got him) thats when his eye was sent away and when I started wondering Juvinile cateratcs and started searching about all of this.

Result my female was able to free whelp with me assisted- her last litter was a c-section and a spay. My breeder did use Junior at stud and from looking at her bitch (regsitered) I new she would be a c-section which she was.

I kept in touch with everyone who bought pups off of me, over the years pictures I do not recieve any more I have found- some do still send- all have been fine- never bred from either- I did 1st shots, gave almost a book on puppy care, food, toy ect, pictures of all pups, parents ect, from birth to the day they got them (like a baby book, time born, weight up to 8 weeks, markings, head or feet first- personality as they aged ect)- did screen people b4 I would let one go home, I was very picky. I did put more into them then I ever got out of breeding- just really enjoyed the puppies. I even offered to buy any pup back at any age or help find new homes for them if need be- Did have one lady call me back 6 yrs later because of family split and asked for help- we went over a few things and she ended up keeping her- have never changed my number due to this reason. I just felt if someone couldn't care for them then I wanted to be the 1st notified since I did bring them into this world. I have even dogsat a couple of them, made some really good friends to :-) Had one lady put one in the paper, told her I would buy the pup back the next day and I went to her house to even see him- he was already 6month old, called her the next day to go get him and she up and sold him- did not have some very nice words for her I was very angry- even had a possible home lined up for him.

Yes I no I would be labeled as a BYB but if I new what I new then, I would not have bred- reason why I have not now.

All my pups have a lil snout more so like their dad- I find Tiva really snores alot where Junior and T-Bone do not.

I kept Dozer (pup born with rectal prolapse) did everything we could for him cause it wasn't his fault he was here, sadly at almost 8yrs old we had to pts cause he was in pain- had a post on that awhile back.... T-Bone ended up with cherry eye's at just 7 weeks- did the op on her and she is 8yrs turning 9.

I did not breed Tiva till she had her 3rd heat just a lil over 2 and only once a year and spayed her at 4yrs old- she is now 11yrs old. This was all on here when I 1st signed up for CD, I got the 3rd degree for it already-  Tiva now at 11yrs has developed slipping knee or just arthritis I believe, Junior has arthritis now and I have them both on Glucosamine and chronditon which seems to help wonders. They all get Yogurt in the morning to lol

Yes if we do decide to get another purebred it will be a Mastiff and have done alot of research on them so no what to ask- I do prefer males because I will prob not alter- Junior is still intact and he is still a wonderful dog- If I do ever decide to use him at Studd (mastiff) he will be health tested, and the parents will be as well- not sure if we want a purebred or just to save a pup/dog from the shelter- I am sure when my dogs have passed on I/we will decide then.

Tried to sum this up the best I could to make a long storey short lol Personally I think if I would have went into this the right way I would have made a good breeder, prob tried to keep evey pup- when I was looking into a bitch I already had 6 dogs at the time (2 big dogs and my bostons) and decided to enjoy the ones I had and now that time has gone by and children got into sports and now down to 3 we decided we will just have a family pet and enjoy life with them. I find much easier to give the ones I have the quality of time they deserve- I should have came a vet- that was my dream but life took a different turn on me.

Hubby always says our dogs eat better then we do cause I am always analizing their food lol and I care more when they hurt cause I no every lil bump on them lol

Guess that was a lil long winded-

As it happens, Zak is the progeny of a brother/sister mating, something we didn't mention this because it's perfectly possible that there is another reason for his seizures.

Interesting that you didn't mention at the time that it's perfectly possible that there is another reason for his seizures & instead chose to lead the general public to believe inbreeding was the only viable reason behind it. If you had taken the time to point that out it might not have caused so much damage to the breed concerned, but then i suppose it would not have fitted in with the agenda of the programme.