Hi all,

I was wondering if i could pick your collective knowledge to ensure i start in the correct way on the road to becoming a responsible breeder.

I have owned German Shepherds for many years, and have always wanted to become a breeder of them. It is now that i have decided to look more seriously at the whole process, and begin the long learning process before actually going to to do it. I have already purchased the recommended book from amazon mentioned in one of the sticky topics, but would also like the views and advice of the people actually doing it day to day.

I live in a good sized house with a medium sized garden, my plan is to put a dog kennel and run outside to assist in the housing etc. I have seen a good quality one sized 10'x6'. This is the kennel and run footprint. Would this be sufficient?

Secondly i am undecided as to whether to purchase a bitch puppy to breed with when she is about 2 years old, and also a dog puppy at about the same time to be the sire. (obviously from different breeders and checks to ensure they are not related) OR

Would it be more advisable to get a stud dog in when the time is right?

The bitch will also be living around another male gsd dog. He has been castrated so that wouldnt be an issue, but i am hoping that he will be ok around the pups when they eventually arrive. (Anyone any knowledge experience to set my mind at ease etc...)

These are just a few questions that have immediately sprung to mind, along with a myriad of others that i am thumbing through the book to help with.

Thanks in advance for reading, and i look forward to your views/advice.

Hi - and well done for doing research in advance of the deed!

My personal opinion would be to buy a top-quality bitch puppy. Grow her on, show her (to make sure she's suitably close to the breed standard to be a worthwhile breeding prospect) and have all the health tests done. Hips can't be x-rayed and scored until she's 12 months of age - if these turn out to be not good then I'm afraid you forget about breeding from her at all.

If all is well and she's reasonably successful in the showring, and her health results are good, then you start to look for a stud dog that excels where she is weak (no dog is perfect, even the Champions!) but also supports her strengths. The chances of buying a male puppy that in two years time is her ideal match is very, very remote, so best forgotten about - you have your pick of all the stud dogs in the country.

I can't comment about kennels - very many people keep their animals in the house as house pets, and don't have outside kennels at all; puppies are frequently raised in the kitchen or utility room, even after the first few weeks.

Hope this helps a bit.

I can't better what Jenagenie has said so will mainly comment on this part:
The bitch will also be living around another male gsd dog. He has been castrated so that wouldnt be an issue, but i am hoping that he will be ok around the pups when they eventually arrive. (Anyone any knowledge experience to set my mind at ease etc...)

When a bitch has newborn puppies, up to at least 2-3 weeks of age, she must be kept away from all other dogs, in her own safe space (somewhere you can sleep, so bedroom or living room usually) no matter how well they get on normally. They need the peace and quiet and having any other dog around them would be very stressful.

Depending on what your neutered male dog is like you may also have to separate them during the bitch's seasons -my own neutered dogs will still mate and tie with in season bitches and although it obviously cannot result in puppies, unsupervised matings can be dangerous so if your dog is one like mine (I have several that all do this) it is safest to keep them apart during seasons.

When you mention the size of the kennel, do you mean size of kennel AND run or individually? If it's in total it seems very small to me. I put my pups (breed not all that dissimilar to yours sizewise etc, just lighter in build) in a kennel from about 5 weeks of age as by then it's impossible to keep a litter of 8-10 pups indoors of a large breed (tried once and NEVER again!! Some people manage but then you really need a suitable room available that is easy to clean and chew proof and which has a door leading out as well), and my kennel is 14' x 8' with a run of roughly 20' x 20'.  The smallest run I have had attached to that kennel was 14' x 8' and then the pups had to come out and run around the garden for a couple of hours each day as well as the run was so small -not to mention how much cleaning it needed.

Breeding is normally the after effect of a passion for a breed.  The aim being to produce show and/or working dogs of correct (aiming for outstanding) type and to be as healthy in mind and body as modern breeding knowledge and health testing will allow.

So the start should be your interest in the bred, then showing and or working a dog of good standard, then you embark on breeding better for your next one at the same time adding something useful to the breeds gene pool.

I would never advise any novice to buy a dog to use at stud.

If you have a decent quality bitch, then for the price of a stud fee you have your pick of the most outstanding suitable dogs to choose from as the next generations sire.

As for the practicalities of housing there are many and varied suitable methods.

The main requirements are that the pups are well socialised and have a safe warm private place with Mum until eyes are open that is easy for the breeder to spend most of their time with them, then room to run around and play and plenty of attention and socialisation from the breeder and others.

Don't forget all of the health tests needed in your breed and ensuring that any that you buy that their ancestors have had ALL necessary health tests.

Excellent and welcomed advice from you all thanks. Certainly gives me plenty to think about and go over. With regard to any kennel that would be used the dogs would always have full access to an enclosed garden. I will ensure that i get the correctly sized kennel and run prior to undertaking anything though.

> I have owned German Shepherds for many years, and have always wanted to become a breeder of them

I think it's well worth being very clear about your motives - what do you want to breed for?

If you disregard the back yard or pet breeders that are looking for money, the experience of raising puppies, or the desire to recreate their own pet then you'll probably find that the 'breeders' that remain are those that do it to get quality puppies that are unavailable elsewhere.  By that I mean they have worked or shown their breed in some capacity for many years and have found a need to breed that involves the betterment of a line or has a great quality dog that can really contribute something to the breed.

I'm sure as an owner of many years standing you already know what you like but have you found a breeder yet?  When you are looking for a breeder it would be a very good idea to choose someone with history and longevity.  If you choose the right person, long before you identify a puppy, the breeder will be invaluable to you in years to come.  They may be able to help you show/work/train your dog and will give objective advice about the strengths and weaknesses of your dog.  They can assist you with the necessary health checks and will have experience in choosing a good stud dog.  Ideally this will be someone you can build a long term relationship with particularly as you may be on a waiting list for a while.   A good breeder is likely to keep pick bitch but you may be able to get a strong 2nd choice.  (There is a current thread about a puppy with a breed fault where you can read views about choosing at 7 weeks or running on).  If you find a really great breeder they are bound to have a few they can't decide about which is a good sign.

If you're serious about the possibility of breeding in future have a think about how you might explain this to the breeder.  Your puppy is likely to come with endorsements (I'd question the choice of breeder if it doesn't) and you'll need the breeders permission to lift these when the time comes.  If you've built a relationship with the breeder, stayed in touch, had all the necessary health checks with good results, and can show your dog has merit in it's chosen field; there is no reason why the endorsement shouldn't be lifted.

Don't aim for a stud dog.  Choose the best bitch you can, and be prepared to wait for her if necessary.  Don't get two together - the best of breeders wouldn't allow it anyway.  Don't worry about kennels til much further down the line.  Good luck :)

**I should add that I don't breed and this is my view, rather than advice given with experience.  Although I do have experience of choosing a great breeder - mine was excellent and a very good blueprint for the way to do things!!

Once again thanks for the sound advice. Having read your views and comments it would certainly appear more viable to purchase a bitch puppy and get a stud dog in when the time is right, assuming that the bitch is healthy etc to breed from.

My thoughts about getting two dogs are along the social lines for the puppy as well. Obviously there are occassions when they need to be left on there own for short periods of time and i want to do everything i can to ensure the least amount of stress possible. My current 'old boy' used to cry at night if he wasnt in sight of our other shepherd when he was a pup. As soon as he could see him he felt assured and was fine.

With regard to my overall desire to breed i would say it was focused more along the obediance lines than outright showing. I love training my dogs and get a real kick out of seeing them getting what it is i want them to achieve. Whether this would make a good enough reason to be breeding i dont know. I know alot of people who breed are also heavily into the show circuits etc, and are trying to better the breed as has been mentioned. I definately want to produce quality pups at the end of it, but not neccesarily for the show ring. Is this something that in your opinions is a problem or not?

Please feel free to be blunt with your views. My whole reason for starting this thread is to ensure as i stated that i am being responsible as a breeder before i undertake anything. If what i am considering is misguided or maybe to the detriment of the breed than i would rather not do it and continue along as i am.

Hi,

I'm afraid I can't really offer any practical advice, as I don't breed or show, but I just wanted to say what a breath of fresh air you are :-)

We have a lot of people coming on here to ask questions, who seem to have made up thier minds already to breed, regardless of the advice, and then get really narky when people point out that what they are going to do might not be for the best.

I think by doing your research and keeping an open mind, you're going about thinking of breeding the right way already, and I wish you the best of luck with your plans.

Claire

My thoughts about getting two dogs are along the social lines for the puppy as well. Obviously there are occassions when they need to be left on there own for short periods of time and i want to do everything i can to ensure the least amount of stress possible.

Two puppies is an absolute nightmare, one which I would not wish even upon my worst enemy. I've gone through it twice, currently have two 9 month old littermates (the final home fell through and no other suitable appeared so I HAD to keep two pups), and believe me, it takes away ALL the enjoyment of having a puppy. It's nothing but hard work, no enjoyment at all, and the pups will for their entire lives be far more attached to each other than to people. My 7 year old littermates still today prefer each other to people. The pups I have now we've even got problems with -it was partly caused by a vet who handled one of them too roughly and made him terrified of men, but having two, that both need socialisation and training (which also involves having to attend two different training classes, as obviously both cannot go together), one of which needs a lot more than most due to his fears, and I feel I am not really getting anywhere at all as there isn't enough time in the day. The others in the litter that went as single pups are all FAR more confident.

I can never take my two pups for a walk together, I can't even take the two 7 year olds for a walk together, as together nothing else exists to them than each other. The 7 year olds aren't badly trained either -the bitch has her KC Good Citizen Silver, the dog has his Gold and has competed in obedience, but put them together and they still act like two little puppies and become deaf and blind to everything else.