Hello there everyone, I need some advice concerning my gundog bitch from whom I wish to breed from (subject to health tests). She is currently 3 years and nine months and I plan to breed her when she is 5 and a half. The reason I have chosen to plan a breeding such a long time in advance is because we are currently campaigning her in the show ring for a year, then placing her in obedience, agility competitions and training her up so she can pass her TAN. I want to ensure that before she is bred from that she has proven herself in all of these disciplines so pups are best quality from a versatile dam. The bitch will be a maiden at time of mating and this will be the first litter I will have bred.
I would like to know whether any of you have any advice or experience from breeding from a mature bitch, are there any health concerns that may arise with the whelping due to her age? Any advice would be very much appreciated!

I have never bred a litter but I would not wait that long.
Older the dam more likely you are to have problems and I believe it is like humans, older you get, less fertile you are...
Another thing to consider is that she could miss on the first time you try mating her and that would make her 6 years old for when you can try breeding her again. I think 6 years is too old for a first litter if bitch could have it sooner than that.
Why not have a litter from her little sooner and you can fullfill all the things you want to do afterwards and the pups will still have that versatile mum :)! Concentrate on for example two things now(show to prove she looks the breed & one area to show her "working " ability and do the rest after the litter :)

Thanks Noora for your response
I didn't actually think about the point of her actually not conceiving on the first try and waiting until she is 6 years old to try again. I agree 6 years would be too old for my liking too. I have planned to do ovulation tests before taking her to the stud, the particular one I have my eye on is a long way from us so I will be careful and check out her fertility before she goes.
I think I may be able to achieve all I want to do with her before she is 5 at the rate she is going now . I would rather however have something ready to show the prospective owners some certification of her achievements in the obedience and agility aspects. My breed has a bit of a reputation for being a bit mental and sometimes hard to train so it would be great to prove that the bitch is a true versatile example. She has her Bronze GCDS award and doing her silver and gold at our DTC later this year and is about to go up to the most advanced obedience class at our DTC. I would put her in proper obedience comps this year as she is ready but I thought getting her critques for her conformation and building relationships with other breeders so I can find the best stud was more important. Her working ability does not really interest me since I don't use her for the gun but I know that our breed club want to keep the breed dual purpose but passing the TAN is on the bottom of the list of things to do. She does however show working ability naturally. Just to ask do you think that potential owners look for obedience achievements and value them the same as showing wins? I know when I went to see my bitch as a pup I was more interested in the trainability than the parentage.

As long as she is fit, healthy & not overweight, I'll doubt you'll have much of a problem.   I bred a first litter from one of my LM's when she was 5 and she had 14 puppies, not all were born alive but then with that number I wouldn't have wanted 14 live pups for her sake.

And speaking for myself, having seen bitches in my breed having pups at a younger age and then siblings coming back with health issues, I think it's wise to wait a little while to collate information on siblings/half siblings.

I have a gundog breed and I would not contemplate breeding from a bitch that old for the first time. You would be running a higher risk of needing a caesarian, losing the pups or mum, or many other serious problems. I bred a bitch for the first time when she was alomst 4 years old (matter of about 3 - 4 weeks away) and she needed a caesar as one of the pups got stuck across the birth canal. She lost 4 of the pups and took a while to recover. Mind you, it was a large litter (13 in total) but still feel that she was just a bit too old for a first litter. I now have a different problem in that a bitch I bred at 2 1/2 years old hasn't concieved at age 4 1/2 years old. I'm just waiting for her to come into season again to see if she is ovulating. You never know what problems may arise around the corner.

I don't know about other people but if you can show that your bitch is working towards a goal and is good at what she is doing, be it working gundog, agility, obedience, etc, then I would look favourably at a litter, rather than one that is from 'just a pet'. Even taking her to a Natural Aptitude Test is proving she can do the job she was bred for (so long as she passes it ;-) )

I should have worded myself little differently(shows I have not got gun dogs).
When I said Working ability I meant obedience, agility etc as well as gun work, just trainability of the dog!

I would assume people who wish to have "working" dog would look for credits on that side, show people will look at show credits...
So I suppose it depends who is looking at the achievements on what is important to them :).

Does your breed do any kind of temperament testing as if they do, this is something as a puppy buyer I would like to see completed.

Also I think showing her is a good way to get her noticed by people in the breed/interested in the breed.
I always keep my eyes open of the temperament of the dogs I see in the shows too, I can't be the only one doing this :).
When I see a lovely looking, evenly tempered dog in a show, this is the point I remember the name and look at the lines behind!
I would think potential puppy buyers who do their research would be most likely to meet you at shows as I would think it is the best place to spot many dogs of the one breed compared to obedience etc...

Thanks for replies
I guess there can be problems no matter what age the bitch is. When she goes to have her Hips done she'll be having an ovulation check and I'll ask the vet to give their evaluation on her suitability. I dont want a big litter, I want a bitch pup to train up and show out of the breeding. I understand in my breed the average is 6-11, the dam of my bitch had 8 puppies. I'll check the Studs average litter size production and take it into account when picking. I am more or less definately going to breed her because she is such a good example for her type, I think the breed would miss out if her line was not continued. I understand that the more times a bitch and dog mate, the more puppies are produced, if I restrict her to two matings would this be sufficent for a small litter?

In response to Noora, Brits do have a sort of temperament testing called the TAN (Teste d'Aptitudes Naturelles) or Natural Aptitude test in english which is an assessment of a gundogs natural ability to hunt and point game. The TAN is more of a gundogs working ability than its actual temperament although of course a dogs temperament is assessed as a dog aggressive dog would be a terrible gundog as the sport requires a good natured animal due to the fact that many dogs are present on a shoot. I'm not an expert on the TAN so if anyone knows exactly what excerises are required for the dog to pass please PM me with the details, I meant to ask Brit Exhibitiors when I was at a champ last week but sort of got caught up preparing my dog. The Breed club runs the TAN I think at least twice every year.
With regards to more general temperament testing i.e good with people/ being touched all over etc is tested for in the Good Citizen Dog Scheme at all levels and as I said has passed her Bronze and going to do her silver and gold this year. I've filmed her completing the Bronze and going to do so with the others, it will be available for the prospective puppy owners to view so they can see her in action as it were.

> if I restrict her to two matings would this be sufficent for a small litter?

It's more a case of getting the time right. You could mate her every day for a week (if she would stand) but she would only conceive when she's actually ovulated. If you have the progesterone tests you will have a better chance of pinpointing the right day(s).

FWIW I would not like to leave a bitch so long to have her first litter, she's more likely to be more flexible and have an easier time whelping if you do it when she's younger.

I would not wait so long but breed from her at 4, so that in case she misses you can still have a litter from her before five years of age.

Not only will the bitch be fitter and more able physically to rear a litter younger, but also I ahve found the maternal instincts are strongest when the bitch is younger.

The oldest I have bred from bitches for the first time is just under four, and the youngest two years of age (usually about 2 1/2 to 3 1/2), and the younger mothers have been the more instinctive mothers.

Right okay you all seem to be suggesting that around 4 would be better for her to breed. I'll take your advice on board, due to my records she is to come into season at the end of next month so the next season will be around December when she will be 4 and 4 months. However that means Crufts is out of the window if she concieves, the judge we have next year likes her colour and it would be likely we where highly placed. With regards to her fitness, my bitch is in good form, any Brit with fat is not tolerated in the ring. Thanks for all the advice it really helped.

"When she goes to have her Hips done she'll be having an ovulation check"
"I dont want a big litter"

If she is due in season next month you would need to get her hips done asap as some people say you shouldn't do it too close to a season as this cannot effect the results - or leave in until mid-way between her next seasons.

Re - ovulation checks - you do this when they are in season to check correct day/days to actually mate so certainly shouldn't be done at same time as hips etc.

As regards the size of litter - you have to take what you get I'm afraid - you can't stimpulate 'I only want 5/6'  One of my girls had 11 in her first litter which was too many in my opinion and that of the studs owner - but she managed extremely well.

Can I suggest you buy the 'Book of the Bitch' and read from cover to cover as well as check all health relevant screenings for your particular breed.

>When she goes to have her Hips done she'll be having an ovulation check

It doesn't work like that, I'm afraid. You need to have her hips xrayed between seasons (ideally), and ovulation tests are done during the season to determine the right day to take her to the stud dog.

>I'll check the Studs average litter size production and take it into account when picking.

As long as the sire is fertile, litter size is determined by the bitch.

I'm not breeding from her this upcoming season so no rush to get her scored. I haven't got half the stuff ready yet plus all the champ shows are coming up so she can't be out of action. When I said ovulation check I meant more of a fertility check, I want the vet to check her out down below to make sure she's not carrying diseases that could affect her ability to breed or if theres anything else wrong, sorry for the wrong terminology. I've been reading up on ovulation pads and they seem a better option to progesterone tests, do people on this forum use them?
So far as litter size in concerned I reckon the average figure is likely to be eight considering my bitches dam's history. I'll be praying for 6-8, its just that because she is an older bitch it would be better for her (and me) to have less pups to look after. Luckily I have a fair few homes (subject to vetting) already for pups so if its is a big litter I wont hae any problems. I understand that I can pray all I want but it probably will be more than 8. Lots of people recommend The Book of the Bitch, Its definately one I'm going to get and pop in the whelping kit.

kennel club says the latest for a fist litter is 6, i would never wait that long personally.
she sounds as if she is still fit so i would see nothing wrong with it, i have kown bitches to be 10 haveing there first litter (disgusting, he was an old man he said he didnt know!?)

Bear in mind that it can take up to about 12 weeks to get the Hip Scores back if the panel are very busy.

I understand that the more times a bitch and dog mate, the more puppies are produced, if I restrict her to two matings would this be sufficent for a small litter?

I had one bitch have one single mating and that produced ten pups -the most she ever had, the next two litters were all two matings and that gave 8 and 6. Another had three matings which produced just two pups.

My largest litter so far (9) was to a single mating.

I have had just 3 pups from an older bitch (having a third and last litter at 6 1/2) mated over the course of nearly a week.

The number of matings is irrelevant, it is the timing and the amount of viable eggs produced by the bitch that will determine the size of the litter. I had one bitch have one single tie and produced 12!  Another girl had 4 matings (bit of a floozie so hard to judge her) she had just 2.

you just cannot predict the number i'm afraid, wouldn't it be nice if we could! :)

>I understand that the more times a bitch and dog mate, the more puppies are produced, if I restrict her to two matings would this be sufficent for a small litter?

No, I had a litter of 10 from a single mating.

>I'm not breeding from her this upcoming season so no rush to get her scored.

Better to get her scored sooner rather than later, because your next step depends on the results of that score. Scoring her won't put her out of action for more than a day or two. Also if her score is bad you'll have to abandon your plans for agility.

>I want the vet to check her out down below to make sure she's not carrying diseases that could affect her ability to breed or if theres anything else wrong.

If she hasn't been mated then she won't have contracted anything. The vet can't do an internal when she's not in season without causing her great discomfort because it's only during the season that the vagina is soft enough to allow penetration. Even if everything is fine there's no reason to assume that she'll 'take' to your chosen stud; I tried on three successive seasons to get a litter from my bitch by a particular stud dog. They were very keen on each other - the first season we did just one mating and she missed. Next time we did two matings and she missed. The third season we did three matings (good ties every time) and she still missed. She'd had a previous litter and he was still siring litters with other bitches. She was 6 years old by this time - the next season we had two good matings with the brother of the stud dog and a litter resulted. So you can never guarantee anything, even with proven animals.

>Also if her score is bad you'll have to abandon your plans for agility.

If her score is bad she won't be bred from either, but I cant see that happening as she often lays like a frog on the floor with her hind feet well thrust out behind her, apparantly most Brits do this even the ones well into their old age.
It seems like breeding is more of an art than a science. If she doesn't concieve then thats that, I definately think 6 is too old for a first litter.

>she often lays like a frog on the floor with her hind feet well thrust out behind her

That's no indication of the condition of her joints. My in-laws' bitch lay like that and she had terrible HD. Other dogs lie like that with sound hips. Only x-rays will tell you the condition of her hips.

>I definately think 6 is too old for a first litter.

So do I. As I said, my bitch had had a litter previously.

When I said ovulation check I meant more of a fertility check, I want the vet to check her out down below to make sure she's not carrying diseases that could affect her ability to breed or if theres anything else wrong, sorry for the wrong terminology.

I have my bitches swabbed for infection when they come into season if they are due to be mated.  The often carry infections which can be picked up from their walks in the forest - so it may need doing again before mating.

I think it was Brainless who mentioned times in hip scoring - make sure you leave yourself plenty of time to get the results back.

> she often lays like a frog on the floor with her hind feet well thrust out behind her

That can actually be a sign of lax joints.

> apparantly most Brits do this

Maybe it's different in your breed then.

>she often lays like a frog on the floor with her hind feet well thrust out behind her

I don't think there is any cause for concern, I've seen lots of brits doing this when their chilling out by the ringside and I've spoken to other Brittany owners about this who said that it was a sign of good hips. I think its just another weird Brit thing that they do, either that or they all have lax joints but I think that someone in the breed would have said something by now.
I've been ringing around for prices concerning Hip scoring, I can't believe how much the prices differ so far I've been quoted for £275 and £137, thats a big price range, can't help thinking that one of them was trying to rip me off.

One of my girls bunny hops and has frogs legs and her hipscore is 6/4, other than getting them x-rayed there is no way of telling if a dog has good hips or not!

A dog that I bred 5 years ago in November has just had a wonderful litter of 7 as I'm sure that a few people on here with verify, she had absolutely no problems at all, other than the owner thinking she'd finished at 6 and then some time later another popped out.  Seven is actually a fair sized litter for the breed.  I saw her at the weekend 8 weeks after having the pups and she looked fantastic, better than my girl looked who only had three recently!

That can actually be a sign of lax joints.


  Lying out at the back is common in a lot of breeds and dogs free from joint proble,.

Just wondered where this information has came from? 

> bred a bitch for the first time when she was alomst 4 years old (matter of about 3 - 4 weeks away) and she needed a caesar as one of the pups got stuck across the birth canal. She lost 4 of the pups and took a while to recover.

I have the same breed and I have never had to have a Caesar with either of my bitches, I believe some whelping problems can be carried down a bitch line.    Both my bitches whelped with just an oxytocin injection nearing the end of each whelping.    There are much younger bitches who have had problems whelping and as I've said before, in my breed, with late eye test failures, elbow dysplasia being more commonplace in some lines etc. I think it's wiser to evaluate all the sibling information you can get.

my border terriers always do it, apparently bull breeds do it aswell

We all have different experiences with our bitches, which is why different people in the same breed will have different answers. And also why people in different breeds will have similar answers. ;-) Personally I will not breed from a bitch for the first time if she is over 4 years of age, but that is due to my experiences.

Take it all on board and decide what you want to do. It is your decision in the end, not ours. I never make any final plans until I have had all health tests done, but it doesn't stop me looking around for stud dogs and checking out pedigrees :-) That's half the fun of breeding :-D

Hi I too have a gundog breed (not the same one) who I have been showing and training both for obedience and the Tan.  I decided to have a litter early (she is nearly 3), this was after she had good health test results and had done well in the ring, been confirmed at 16 months and had started to show a little promise in obedience.  I will go back to it all as soon as she has recovered from having the babies. I really wanted to keep a pup from her litter and took advice as to whether I should continue the training and showing and wait or to go for it now, the majority of breeders told me to go for it now.  A friend of mine who decided to wait a while longer has the problem of her bitch having missed twice and she's now thinking it may be too late.  However it is your decision, let us know what you decide.  Good luck.

Jan