Hi,

I was at Border Union at the weekend and saw a few undocked pups being shown. My breed is undocked so I don't know much about the rules. When is it permissable to show a docked pup?

Thanks

It's permissible if the pup has been docked legally and if the show does not charge an entry fee for the public to get in. The only legally docked dogs are certain breeds (gundogs mainly -not sure if any others are covered at all) where the owner has been able to prove to a vet the dog will be worked (they may for instance ask for a shotgun license to be produced), or dogs born abroad where docking is legal.

Thanks, sorry another question. Why could the docked pups, Dobermans, be shown when the public were charged admission?

>or dogs born abroad where docking is legal.

I'm not certain about that - I thought that no dogs of the non-exempted breeds docked after the cut-off (no pun intended) date could be shown. After all no cropped dogs can be shown, even though cropping is still legal in some countries.

Here you go, info on showing docked dogs

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/979

I think it's also what is stated on the Show's schedule

"Only undocked dogs and legally docked dogs may be entered for exhibition at this show" - Which means a dog that has been legally docked can be shown, I take it that this is for shows where there is not a entrance fee however this is on SKC shedule but they charge an entrance fee and there were docked puppies shown in May.

"A dog docked on or after the 6th April 2007 may not be entered for exhibition at this show" - Which means no dog that has been docked (legally or not) can not be entered, this is on East of England where there is an entrance fee

I think some clubs/societies are not 100% clued up on docking & showing, the secretary of the club i'm a committee member of had no idea and was just going to put the 2nd phrase on our shedule but we don't charge entrance fee so I explain we should put the 1st one on.

Have a feeling that they are one of the shows who do not charge for public entry so docked dogs can be shown.  Also are you sure that they are not a breed that are naturally born with bobtails, such as my own breed?

No dogs are allowed to be shown from any country if they are docked if the public are charged entry.

The rules are different for Scotland to those for England and Wales. In Scotland legally docked dogs can be shown at any show regardless of whether the show charges the public an admittance fee or not but Scottish breeders can not legally dock even the gundog breeds. In England and Wales dogs docked after stated cut off dates i.e. 6th April 2007 for England 28th March 2007 for Wales cannot be shown where the public is charged an entrance fee.

Just to add legally docked dogs also include those imported from other countries so may not always be gundog breeds.

Ahh Love Me, Love my Tail, and dont she look great!!!

<img src="[url=http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/3083/scan0001k.png]

and this raises another interesting point.....if its an agricultural show...and the dog section is held as part of the ag show, then is it entry fee to the whole show that counts or just into the dog show section?

more advice my friend is waiting fore her gundog puppies to be born and one is going to america who as you know only show docked dogs
she does nt want to have them all docked The mother to be does have a gundog working certifcate  so i think she can get it done legally does anyone know of a vet in the North West who docks legally
Mine vet has nt done it for years and wont do dew claws either

Would think that she would still be best with the Council of Dock Breeds.  Although there again she has a problem how will she know at 3 days in looks, temperament etc. that the one that she ends up docking will be the suitable dog?

She will need a letter from the gundog club that she works with I would think also.

> Ahh Love Me, Love my Tail, and dont she look great!!!
>
> <img src="[url=[url=http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/3083/scan0001k.png" rel=nofollow]http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/3083/scan0001k.png[/url]]

I'm not sure what breed this is?

Yes there are vets in North West that will dock tails. Docking can however only be undertaken subject to the exemption under the Animal Welfare Bill, unfortunately the fact the dam has a Show Gundog Work Certificate will not qualify as evidence. If the dams owner shoots over the dog, and they have a shotgun certificate this would be classed as evidence, alternatively written proof that the regularly dog works on a shoot would be required from a gamekeeper.  If the owner/breeder cannot meet these requirements then it may be possible to dock a puppy IF the new owner supplies all the evidences and there is proof of sale at the time the pup would be docked. This is obviously more difficult if the dog is to be sold overseas..... copies of shooting rights, firearms licences ect would be needed. In all cases, regardless of evidence used the breeder signs to say the pup is being docked as it is likely to be used as a working gundog as the exemption only relates to dogs intended for work.

More info here ::

15th March 2007
From 6th April 2007, it will no longer be legal to have the tail of any dog docked for cosmetic purposes in England.  However, following a successful lobbying campaign in March 2006, BASC gained a derogation so that gundogs and certain other working dogs can still have their tails docked, as long as the owner of the puppies and vet have clear reason to believe that this is on welfare grounds, and that certain strict conditions are fulfilled.

Following a debate in the House of Lords there was some confusion surrounding the wording  of the regulation, but this has now been sorted out and we are back on track.  The House of Commons has already debated and passed the legislation, and the House of Lords will re-address it on March 27th.  The objection has been withdrawn and it is not possible to amend the wording. There is no likelihood that it will be voted down.

To qualify a puppy for tail docking, the person taking it to the vet must provide a signed and dated statement together with identification for himself as the owner or representative of the owner, and evidence that the puppy is likely to be used for a specified type of work.  Identification types applying to BASC members are detailed below, there are other categories for the Armed Forces, emergency services, HM Prison Service and HM Customs and Revenue:

(vi) evidence that the owner of the dog, or an agent or employee of the owner most likely to be using the dog, will be using the dog for work in connection with lawful pest control;
(vii) a current shotgun or firearm certificate issued to the owner of the dog, or to the agent or employee of the owner most likely to be using the dog for work in connection with the lawful shooting of animals;
(viii) a letter from a gamekeeper, a land-occupier (or his agent), a person with shooting rights, a shoot organiser, a club official, a person representing the National Working Terrier Federation, or a person engaged in lawful pest control, stating that the breeder of the dog whose tail is to be docked is known to him and that dogs bred by that breeder have been used (as the case may be) on his land, or in his shoot, or for pest control.
In addition the vet must believe that the dog is not more than five days old and that the dam of the dog is one of the following types:

Hunt point retrieve breeds of any type or combination of types.
Spaniels of any type or combination of types.
Terriers of any type or combination of types.
Following docking the puppy will be microchipped, and the vet will provide a certificate confirming that all of the requirements of the derogation have been filled.  The precise format of the certificate has yet to be decided and will be issued by the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons.

There is concern that it will be difficult for owners to prove that new born pups are destined to be working dogs, but this is addressed by the fact that the owner and vet have reason to believe that the dog is most likely to be used for the lawful shooting of animals or lawful pest control.

The full wording of the regulation can be found on the Office of Public Service Information website at http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/draft/20075778.htm

Karen

We can still legally dock in Southern Ireland at the moment although it is being looked at..

> I'm not sure what breed this is?

She's a Rott and yes don't she look great, we also used to have one with a tail.

thank you tatty-ead , yes shes a rottie great dog one of the first litter of i bred back in 1993 she was the double of her mum and most def the biggest bitch i have ever seen mum had 9 super pups and all were fab

<img src="http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/1821/scan0005.tif" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us"/><br/>By <a target="_new" href="http://profile.imageshack.us/user/chelzeagirl">chelzeagirl</a> at 2009-06-09

this was mum my Tara one of the greatest Dogs iv ever been blessed to have,

A Rottweiler bitch should not be big, the standard states 23-25 inches tall (58-64cm).    How did she do when you showed her as back in the eraly 90's, an undocked Rottweiler must've been a very uncommon site then.

i didnt show her i did not keep the undocked bitch she went to owners in slough,  but i have to say no one who had a puppy from the litter were worried about them having their tails ,
i choose not to have them docked as i didnt see the point they were going to be pets not working dogs so i left tails intact i thought they still looked as sweet,
although the one in the pic on the beach did shatter her owners glass door with her tail Opps!!
the dog was unhurt tho,

We can still legally dock in Southern Irelland at the moment,.

i'll have to come to you if i did want a no tail rottie then lol ;-)

but to be honest although i do prefur their no tail look but thays only because its what im used to seeing it doesn't bother me them having tails i still think they look great