We are new to showing and after playing at it with one of our dogs, have reserved a puppy specifically with showing in mind.  Our existing bitch isn't really good enough AND she doesn't really enjoy showing much.

I'm interested in your views about type how much exercise a puppy destined for showing should have.

My lot love to run and get muddy and have always been taken out for a walk from as soon as jabs given.  BUT we're being told that we really should only let puppy play in the garden or very restricted walks till at least 6 months.  That seems wrong when they are gundog breeds, mine love to swim and wallow in mud and they are pets first, HOWEVER I am buying this puppy with showing in mind and don't want to ruin it.

What do you do?

Treat it no different than you would with any other puppy.  And go to ring craft :-)  If it's a hairy breed ensure it is used to grooming.

> BUT we're being told that we really should only let puppy play in the garden or very restricted walks till at least 6 months

If the breeder is telling you this, I would stick to thier advice, they know thier lines the best. Different breeds of dog grow at different rates and different lines within breeds can grow at different rates. The restriction on excersice is not about the look of the dog when it is fully grown, it is from a develpomental health perspective. Too much exercise on growing bones/joints can lead to problems that will effect the dogs mobility (joint development, skeletal shape etc.), that is why free-play for a pup, with no formal exercise until older, is recomeneded for some breeds.

Formal exercise, such as lead-walking for the sake of walking (as opposed to a gentle stroll around town for socialisation purposes) is more of a repetetive motion than when a pup is allowed 'free-play' in the garden.

If you name the breed of dog you are getting you may get some breed-specific advice form other owners of that breed :)

If it's a large breed then they do often need restricted exercise as puppies to avoid leg/joint problems. Of course this is the way you should treat every puppy, not just a show prospect :-) What breed are you getting? Your pups breeder should be the one to advise you.

As for type, you will probably have an idea just now of what you like and what type consistently does well at champ shows, if not then go to as many championship shows as you can (open shows are not a good guide). Buy a catalogue at each one and sit and watch the judging and mark the results in your catalogue. Ask questions and ask to go over peoples dogs. When you find a breeder whose stock you like, and who is consistently successful (preferably with dogs that are also owned by other people) ask them about future litters. Be prepared to wait a long time, it is worth waiting for the pup you want as you'll have that dog for hopefully 10+ years and probably spend a fortune campaigning it, worth waiting for the best possible pup :-)

Before I got my first borzoi I spent years going to championship shows and marking/reading catalogues. I asked masses of questions. I started to like a particular line and found I wasn't so keen on some types. I found a dog I really loved (Ch. Vronsky Zapata) and saw that he was producing quality puppies that were also doing well. I saw an ad for a litter, line bred back to Ch. Colhugh Clangers, sired by the dog I liked and bought a dog pup from that as my first show dog. He went on to become a champion and a champ show group winner so it is possible to be very successful with your first show dog if you do your homework (and are a little lucky) :-)

I would say yes to restricted exercise at a young age to avoid joint problems etc, and I don't let my hubby take my Cavs on quite as long as walk as my Yankee goes on - not that they can't do it, but I want them to look fit, not like bodybuilders! But once your dog is grown up, let him get as muddy as he wants - Mike Gadsby lets his Yankees get filthy and it all washes off for the shows. :-)

I also only let puppies play in the garden until about 12 months old but take them out regularly to not exercise but to socialise and get them used to as many different things as possible.
My promising pups who have gone to pet homes who have ignored my advice, always lack bone and have longer legs than the pups that I rear. :(  So it makes a huge difference in the ring if they lack bone and are the wrong shape......

> I'm interested in your views about type how much exercise a puppy destined for showing should have.

I would imagine the breeder will be giving the same advice to all her puppy owners whether the dogs are to be shown or not.  The issue is about preventing internal damage to growing bones, and joints, and very little to do with outward appearance.

An adult gun dog will, in time, take as much exercise as you can give it but you need to grow that adult body first. We have a gundog breed and we were very careful to ensure he wasn't over exercised (we were also cautious about stairs, and jumping on or off furniture).  However we still took him out and about for socialisation and there was absolutely no reason he couldn't splash about in the puddles and get filthy!

The thing to remember is that puppies don't need walking for exercise but they do need to have lots of different experiences. Our boy went to training classes, ring craft, played in the field, visited the vet, went into town, watched some trains, went to the sea, played in the park, met cows, sheep and horses.  He watched the ducks, went to church and visited friends BUT he did all this without walking much distance at all.  He was carried a bit and we drove him quite often as well - it put a bit of extra mileage on the car but it got him used to travelling :)

Exercise his mind and give him lots of outings but you can leave the 'real' walks til he is older.  Ours didn't start going on proper exercise walks with our older dog til he was at least 8 months.  I did much of his initial training on his own and the joint walks were either quick ones or he stayed on the lead for longer.  He didn't miss out on anything and is probably a better trained dog because of it :) 

Good luck with your puppy xxx

Thank you all, should of said they are cocker spaniels.... and there's a bit of a typo in that I meant to say type of exercise rather than type as in the breed standard.. SORRY

Our existing dogs have always gone out for "walks" in the woods from early age but had short meander building up as they got older.  These walks are always off lead which has helped in teaching recall as they got more fear free.  It doesn't seem right just restricting exercise to the garden (unless you have a very large garden)! That said the puppies have always gone out a lot less than the older dogs so that the older ones can get a really good run.

I think we can reach a happy medium in the same way as "dogs a babe" has said, and in reality, I think it's much as we've done before but perhaps a bit more detail in not letting them be complete loons jumping round furniture or going up and down the stairs.

It doesn't seem right just restricting exercise to the garden (unless you have a very large garden)!

If you're new to showing and want your pup to reach it's full potential, then it would seem to be a good idea to be guided by the breeder.  You can't turn the clock back once the pup has grown long legs and has no bone..........

Training and socialisation are important but the amount and type of exercise will certainly affect the way that a puppy grows.

Just out of interest is there anything to support this believe of puppy growing longer legs and losing bone if excercised?
I have heard it said few times here in UK and to be honest I can not see how excercise would have an effect on something I would think is mainly genetics...

Wouldn't children who run a lot have longer legs :)? I obviously did not run enough...
I know dogs and children have totally different growth rates but even so I just can't see the science behind this...
I stand corrected if there is evidence!

It is easy to say it was the excercise but how would you know if it really was the exercice or just the way that puppy was going to be...
Also all the people I know whose puppies who do not really go out of the garden(big gardens) probably run around fair bit as there are other dogs around, where as lone puppy would not... Unless you throw a ball etc, which in turn could be very bad for the joints...

Just out of interest is there anything to support this believe of puppy growing longer legs and losing bone if excercised?

No proof, but when I had my very first puppy (my first dog was an adult rescue) I did not know about restricting exercise so he got a lot. I also lived in a flat so the pup HAD to go for walks many times every day. When I met the dog the breeder had kept from the same litter I could not BELIEVE the difference in bone. My dog had long thin legs, her dog had thick tree trunk legs. The breeder said straight away it was because she restricted the exercise until the pup was fully grown.

I think its very dependant on breed, a cocker spaniel is not a large breed and if you were limiting the exercise to just a few minutes more to practice 'being off lead in the big wide world' rather than an actual walk, I dont think thats going to cause a problem.

I do agree with limiting the hurtling up stairs and jumping on and off furniture - thats not good for any growing pup, no matter the size or breed.

One thing that WILL give you a taller lankier dog is neutering early (before maturity) though if you intend showing then I cant imagine you would contemplate neutering a cocker anyway.

You do have to balance things out because although your breeder undoubtedly knows the breed and her stock really well, it is YOU who will be living with this dog for the next 12+ years.

To my mind, having a dog who is sensible and has a good recall when out and about is more important than showing - maybe thats just me, but I live with a dog who is a pain in the rear to take to certain places, its taken me the better part of 9 years to get him even remotely sociable, its not something I would wish on anyone.

What age do you start to take them to ringcraft - even if for socialising as much as standing and moving, or do you sign up to the principle of not showing the outside world your dog until it's ready to go in the ring so that it can't be "judged" before it's ready?

This showing thing seems to be a mine-field at times!

> or do you sign up to the principle of not showing the outside world your dog until it's ready to go in the ring so that it can't be "judged" before it's ready?
>

Crikey Jaspersmum, breed judges should, and usually do, put up the best dogs in each class. If your dog is a quality example then it will stay as such and be judged as such. Folk at ringcraft are unlikely to be your judges in the real world so what does it matter?

Blimeh...

If theres a ring craft near you (there isnt one near me, we have had to wing it! and some days that shows)... go! Great socialisation!

Dogs grow and change all the time, and whilst I would be a liar if i said people wont 'judge' your dog .... it doesnt matter because those doing so on the whole are NOT the ones judging in the ring when it matters. If you do come across someone who is foolish enough to judge your adult dog on something he did or how he looked when he was 6 months old, then you dont show under a fool like that again - simpulz!

What age do you start to take them to ringcraft

As soon as the rest of the litter has gone.  Socialisation is VERY important in all breeds and ringcraft is one of the many things that constitutes socialisation and exercise for a show puppy.

Hi my 17 week old started ringcraft as soon as he'd had all his jabs. I want to get the pup out there learning what he needs to, getting people going over him and also socialisation. ASAP in my mind.. My breeder of my current boy and also of my older boy get theirs in at a young age.

We have already started obedience, we had to wait a few weeks for it to start, but so far so very good.

Just don't overdo the ringcraft, so when you practice at home make it fun as well, a few minutes here and there, if they start to find it boring then you'll find it may show in the ring as well.
I have 4 different rc's i can attend and a few have people in my breed which i find proves very helpful. Also we have some good judges attending as well. Also on match nights you may get a judge of your breed or someone in the gundog world, this can actually be helpful in knowing how your boy is getting on and getting feedback.

My other half and i kept a puppy each from a litter we had last year. Both given the same amount of exercise, (and neither are neutered) one is very tall and lanky and the other much shorter. I can't see how exercise can be implicated in this?!

Was the litter line bred or an outcross?

I actually believe that there was a test with GR's with exercise, feeding etc of a litter, half were exercised with no limits and rubbish food given the other were restricted and fed a better food and I believe hips etc. were better on the ones who were restricted and fed a better food.

But, had they been given unlimited exercise and good food, rather than fed rubbish, what would the results have been then? Surely for a direct comparison, both halves should have been fed the same food.

I really can't see how exercise would have a bearing on bone growth. I understand damage could be caused to growing bones and joints. Lack of bone, IMO, would be down to genetics. I can see where Westcoast is coming from regarding linebreeding or outcrossing causing variance within a litter.

Surely you Breed for bone not feed or exercise? I would have thought if the pup was going to be well boned it would be regardless of exercise, the only thing is that if damage is done to the joints then legs would get spindly looking as the dog did less exercise and muscles weakened in a response to discomfort?
Aileen

It has been quite well noted that sibling pups gone into pet homes and show homes, are raised quite differently, and when meeting up with those pups are year down the line.. the difference is remarkable.. those that have been allowed to play and run at will down the beach or over fields, are taller and rangier.. those who have restricted excersise.. are within breed standard height with good bone.. feeding did not play a part since most of them kept to the same food ..

I also have had half sisters, one was a pet and allowed pretty much free range.. the other I planned to breed from.. the free range was leaner taller, and lost so much bone.. the other, was heaver, stocky and very well boned..

Breeding for bone yes.. but if not carefully looked after, you can lose everything you bred for..

There is no scientific data.. since no studies have been done.. but any breeder will tell you that pet homed pups and show homed pups are quite different a couple of years down the line.. the most noticable being lacking bone

Surely you Breed for bone not feed or exercise? I would have thought if the pup was going to be well boned it would be regardless of exercise,

See my post higher up regarding my own first puppy.

The amount of exercise will have a bearing on how the nutrients from the food are used so it then follows a puppy allowed free unrestricted exercise will have a different construction, to some extent,  to one who's exercise is restricted.

Not forgetting that, as with humans, exercise affects bone density. Too little exercise results in weaker bone.

Maybe there is a difference in this when it comes to the size of the dog?

I know many breeders in the country of my origin and have never heard this before in 15 years I have been talking to breeders.
Actually where I come from people are much more into excercising puppies as well(off lead running) and nobody has ever heard of the 5 minute rule either.
Most breeders who I know engourage excercise, not too much road walking,silly jumping, slippery floors or steps but normal off lead running/play is encouraged...
My last girls breeder even took my girl back for few weeks when she was 6 months old as she felt she did not get enough excercise to support her joints as she did not have buddies to play with! I don't think my breed is any leggier or less boned where I come from and following the different ways of raising pups, this should be seen I think. Mine are giants so most go pretty leggy at one point anyway and then get heavier so maybe the difference would not be so noticeable as in a breed that is not so "heavy" weight when mature?

Saying this a Lab breeder who I worked for did have few puppies visiting and had kept some of the siblings herself. I have to say the pet ones did look leggier and mostly were taller too! But then I'm not sure if they would have received more excercise as the pups she kept herself did run around quite a lot in her large garden as she always run one 2 per litter so they had a play buddy.

I find these different ways people see things and what people believe in different countries very interesting :)!
In one something is obvious and well known by most doggy people whereas in another country people have never heard of it and can be doing exact opposite... Both still manage to get healthy dogs too :)

Not forgetting that, as with humans, exercise affects bone density. Too little exercise results in weaker bone.

That is so right. The recommendations on osteoporosis are to do good (pounding) walks to improve bone density.

I have always allowed my young Goldens to have a fair amount of free running on even ground (my garden is too small for this) but I do not do long road walks. My dogs have never been lacking in bone. They are also fed a good quality food. Touch wood, I have always had good hip and elbow scores.

I think we are getting sidetracked here, as to what actually constitutes too much/not enough excersise..

all puppies should have free run of garden.. but if an adult dog is in situ, then some restraint is required.. a puppy will keep going if the adult does.. we have to be sensible

Its the lead walking that should be tempered, this is the type of excersise that usually becomes overdone..

But wasn't the OP asking if she should treat a show puppy any differently to a pet puppy?  That's what I read, but could have read too much into it as I normally do.  The long and short of it is no, you should not treat a show puppy any differently to a pet puppy (both need minimal exercise, quality food and masses of socialisation).

You should not treat the two any different however pet people with little understanding (so not all pet people) can over exercise their pups.  Having seen many litter mates leave for home with the breeder still unsure if they have made the right chioce because both very similar, the pets also seem more dangly, upright shoulders etc.

Maybe thats how they would have destined with controlled exercise though?

Maybe thats how they would have destined with controlled exercise though?

Once may be co-incidence, but when the same thing happens time and time again ............ :)

> Was the litter line bred or an outcross?

An outcross would be to an unrelated breed so would be a crossbreed.   Do you mean the same breed but unrelated in lines?

> An outcross would be to an unrelated breed so would be a crossbreed.

Outcross is often used to describe a mating bringing in new or unrelated bloodlines in the same breed :-)  I'm assuming westcoast was asking if they were linebred or an outcross as you would expect more uniformity in a linebred litter, but if an outcross (using a sire with completely different bloodlines) it is entirely possible to have such diverse types.

Exactly! :) 

An outcross could easily produce completely dissimilar adults whereas I would expect a linebred litter to marure in a similar way if reared together. :)

> Outcross is often used to describe a mating bringing in new or unrelated bloodlines in the same breed :-)

Yes, I know but it isn't correct, an outcross would be to mate a Labrador to a Poodle - 2 unrelated breeds - as an example.

>> Outcross is often used to describe a mating bringing in new or unrelated bloodlines in the same breed
>Yes, I know but it isn't correct, an outcross would be to mate a Labrador to a Poodle - 2 unrelated breeds - as an example.

No, that's how the term is used in the cat world (according to my friend who breeds Ragdolls). In the dog world it refers to unrelated animals of the same breed.

Outcrossing information.

(to the post about choosing types and lines you like, and doing your homework, I just got lucky)

True, I've had great results with my Havanese Mojito.  I didn't know anything about shows or lines or types, or Havanese for that matter.  I was looking for a reputable breeder because I wanted a healthy dog mostly. Turns out he's done very well iin the ring, loves to show, already has his Guatemalan, El Salvadorian, CACIB, CACLAB, ranked #2 toy dog last year, and is ranking #1 toy dog this year!!