IT SAID THE FIRST THING YOU HAVE TO DO IS FIND THE FAULTS IN YOUR OWN DOG AND TRY NOT TO MAKE THEM WORSE BUT IMPROVE THEM THROUGH BREEDING MY BITCH WHO IS A LOVELY STAFFIE 6 MONTHS OLD I'M PLANNING TO BREED HER WHEN SHE'S 2 HALF YEARS OF AGE OR SO BUT ONE FAULT THE VET POINTED OUT TO ME THAT SHE'S JUST A LITTLE UNDERSHOT NOW IF I WOULD LIKE TO CORRECT THIS THROUGH BREEDING IT'S NOT AS SIMPLE AS FINDING A DOG THATS OVERSHOT SO HOW???? WOULD I GO ABOUT THIS (IT DOS'NT TELL YOU HOW TO CORRECT IT IN THIS BOOK )(SHAME!!!) ANY ADVICE WILL BE MOST WELCOME, I'M ONLY BREEDING HER ONCE THEN SHE WILL BE SPAYED I JUST WOULD LIKE TWO STAFFIE'S NO BETTER THAN MOTHER AND SON!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry Scooby, but I would suggest that you do not breed from any bitch that is undershot! It is a recessive fault and is virtually impossible to get rid of completely.

At best you could risk some of her pups following on with the same degree of fault at worst you could end up with some of the pups being so undershot that they would have difficulties eating. Resulting in them having to have teeth removed.

Regards

Jayne

ps. Why not have her spayed after her first season and then buy yourself another pup in a year or two's time.

I totally agree with Lady Dazzle. I waited for ages for a particular colour in one of my breeds, and then found out now she is about 7 months old, that she is undershot, so she wont be bred from.

I agree too, I know you think its a nice idea to have a puppy from your bitch but please dont. The equipment you need to buy: heat lamps - whelping bed - veterinary bedding - special food - vets bills if there are complications can often run into 4 figures and sometimes no live puppies. A very experienced westie breeder I know of has just had a litter, the bitch has died and she is hand rearing the puppies which is exhausting and one has died already. The list of expenses is endless and it will be much less expensive and traumatic to to buy another puppy in six months or so when your bitch is nearing maturity. And also much more responsible. Sadly as has been said some or all of the litter will almost certainly be be undershott, and it is hard enough for a newbie breeder to find good homes for sound pups. This is a fault that may never "breed out" and you certainly wouldn't use a dog who is undershott to compliment her - then you will get some undershott AND some overshott puppies. Breeding out faults refers really to slight conformation faults ie tail held too high/low, shorter back, better shoulders etc - not unsoundness. I know its disappointing but please dont breed from her.

The more I read about breeding the more I am sure it isn't for me. I have been approached about using Cava but I have made up my mind not to do it. I feel that much as I love him I can easily go back to his breeder when I want a pup, I couldn't take back any of his progeny that needed a home so I'm not going to go down that road.
Anne

Hi all,

Just wanted to add in the hope that someone will see this and it will be a deterant.

The lady that WL mentioned not only lost her bitch but lost all of her puppies today.

In total 1 bitch and 4 puppies. tragic. I have had tears in my eyes all night. Not my place to discuss the details on the board but I know that she would not mind me mentioning it as a deterant to anyone jumping into breeding or breeding unnecessarily.

BFN

Pam

Pam,, how awful for her :( please give my best wishes...

NAt

Hi scooby
as an owner/breeder of stafs for the last 18 years mouth faults are one of our biggest problems due to the bulldog ancestry. Personally i would not breed from a staff who is under or overshot but there are plenty that do and the problem never gets any better. I would have her spayed and get another at a later date. jo

How does breeding a dog that is overshot with a dog that is undershot going to make the pups have a good bite

They can cancel each other out. My mum is very small, and my dad is quite tall and my sister is of average height so it worked for them. Unfortunately my brother is over 6ft and I'm 5ft 2in so it doesn't always work out.

I hope this makes sense!!

Fiona
x x x

i dont think that it quite works that way with dogs though!

no but the principle is kind of the same!!

As Holly is slightly under breed standard in height if we were to breed it would be advised that we should mate her with a larger dog in the hope that the two extremes would result in normal height dogs.

This is what I was told by Hollys breeder but I don't know if it would work with jaws as I understand they're a lot more complicated.

Fiona
x x x

sitting here very confused now, so I dread to think how anyone reading this feels!!

My understanding is that this theory could result in some correct size some over and some under. Would it not be better to breed to good standard dog then breed next generation likewise and correct fault that way, not talking about serious faults here just point that needed to be improved upon. Please don't take this as advice anyone I'm really asking a question and want replies from those who know.
Anne

It doesn't tend to work that way with Cockers (or any other breed I imagine) If you have a small bitch & mate her to a big dog, you will get some big & some little. It can also be quite dangerous to mate a small bitch to an oversized dog as some of the resulting pups may be too large for a small bitch to deliver without a caesarian. If you want to breed for correct size, then you would mate your bitch to a dog of the correct size, known for producing pups of the right size. It's the same for any "fault", if you are looking to improve on an area in which your dog fails, then you look for a mate who is correct in this department rather than one that is perhaps "overdone" eg if you have a short-necked bitch, you would look for a dog with the correct length of neck rather than one with a very long neck.

Mouth faults are different because they are so hard to eradicate once they are in a line. I would never breed from a dog/bitch with an incorrect bite - the next generation may have correct bites but the gene would still be there lurking in the background & will come out to haunt the breeder in future generations.

Sorry Jane, by larger dog I meant one larger than Holly but still within the breed standard - not one over the breed standard.

It's all irrelevant to us anyway as there's no way we could ever be convinced to breed from Holly - it's not something I'm interested in although I do adore puppies :)

Fiona
x x x

Ah I see - sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying :-) Having said that I would not mate a Cocker at the top end of the breed standard to one much smaller - there would still be too much disparity in size. I would go for an "average-sized" dog ie one in the middle of the size range

Jane

Actually you should not mate two extremes hoping for something in the middle.

If you have a large or small bitch then you should mate her to a dog of the correct height who has parents that do not share the over or under size. The resulting litter should contain correct size pups, and possibly some like their Mum (over.undersize). If you mate large to small, you will get some large some small and maybe some correct!

In my breed we have an ideal height as opposed to a height range. It is accepted that an inch over ideal, and a little less under the ideal is fine.

My Champion bitch is 20 1/4 tall, and the ideal is 19 1/2. I will look to mate her to dogs of 20 1/2 to 21 inches tall, but will not mate her to anything taller, as I do not want to increase height.

Her mother is 19 1/4 inches tall, and a bit light in build. I will not mate her to anything under 20 1/2 inches with good substance, but will not exclude a slightly taller dog.

With my breed Weimaraners. If you mate a large over sized dog to a small bitch you do not get average sized dogs. You get some large some small.
Nutkin

LOL, Fiona ...same type of messed up genetics worked wierdly in my mother's family too.

Great Grandma was 4'10 + Great Granpa was 6'3.
My grandmother was 5'6 (tall for her times, but still acceptable)
Her younger sister was 6 feet (and has had health problems all of her life due to lack of proper nutrition during the Depression)
----------
My mom is 5'10 + dad is 6ft
I'm 5'9
my elder brother is 5'5 and a HALF (don't forget that half) :rolleyes:
--Needless to say, I"m slightly nervous about what will emerge with my 6'4 hubby when we have kids Either a midget or a giant, probably :P :) :D

FYI , according to a survey done a couple of yearsa ago , the biggest (and tallest) babies are produced by crossing ( :) ) a very tall man and a very small woman.

I have an interest as my Grandma was 4'10 , Grandad 6' , my mother was 5'7 and considered very tall and my dad was 6.1. I am 5'11 and my sister 6' , my brother 6'3.

In my family ...my children vary enormously ..Luke is now 6'3 , Thomas is about 5'10 , Lucy is 5'8 (their dad is only 5'9). Sophie is already 5'4 at age 12!! Conor is regular height for age at 9.

There is a rough guide to childrens adult height ...but I havent found that it has worked with my lot so far ;) Double a 2 year olds height and you should get a rough idea of their adult height

Melody :)

I really felt sorry for my mother-in-law when I discovered she (5'4) gave birth to bouncing baby (hubby) who was 11 pounds 8 oz. I've seen picts of her during the last trimester. Her tummy entered the room long before she did!!!! I think that's one of her primary reasons for only having one child :rolleyes: :P

Hi Hiedi
My understanding of it would be that you should not try to compensate a fault by looking for the opposite in a mate. If your bitch is undershot you would have a greater chance of breeding correct bites if you used a stud dog with a correct bite NOT if you use a stud that is overshot. But I could be wrong. :)
However, that said if you have a bite fault (over or under) then really you shouldn't look to breed form that dog at all because the fault will still be there even if you cover it up on the surface it will just become recessive. (I think )
HTH
Nicky

Hi Nicky

I agree,m I donot think that by breeding a overshot dog with a undershot dog will make the correct bite. You wpuld probably get a litter half over and half under shot pups, and I do not think is going to better the breed MHO anyway not that it counts for much :) :)

hey guys....any one notice you lost Scooby after her first post!

That often happens :P

I can understand what all of you are saying, But this is my first staffie i'm not a breeder and yes there are some worst case senario's in breeding, And i'm totally gutted for that poor woman, my dog's mother had to have a caesarian section and recovered, but the pup's had to be hand reared, and i would never risk breeding her if i thought i was going to do any harm to her. (but as i said she's a "LITTLE BIT UNDERSHOT" (so i've been informed) but looking in one of my staffie book's (pet owners guide tothe staffordshire bull terrier)(written:- Clare Lee)staffie's have a row of front teeth then two (looks like small incisors) then the main incisors, and the bottom one's fit inbetween these two which it does with a tiny gap between the top two fangs if you like!!!!!.......So you tell me if it is that fractional is it that serious?????????????????????????........I'm off back to the vet's and i'll put it straight to him that i'm planning to breed her the once

You were the one who said she was undershot - or rather that your vet did, suprised they mentioned it it is is so minor. I think what people are saying why breed from a bitch who may be a good pet but has a serious fault, when others have been doing their best to improve the mouth within the breed. But if you don't care about that there is nothing we can do but tell you how it is. Likewise it is not up to the vet, if you decided against advice you are going to, then I guess you will do as you like anyway.
Jackie

Personally I would say that if you know so little about dogs that you have to ask the vet to diagnose an undershot mouth, then you certainly shouldn't be thinking of breeding until you have gained a heck of a lot more knowledge.

I don't think that you should bother breeding her if she has faults- fair enough all dogs have a fault but the way I understand it- most breeders try to pick up on these (and can) through the generations- the faults aren't something which can be sorted through just the one litter. And with such a serious fault- why bother at all- what has she to offer the breed with regards to improving the breed?

It's not as easy as it sounds- I know Cleopatra had a horrid experience through breeding and the breeder of my bitch had one bitch go into *toxic shock*? needed a caesarean and almost died- she was left hand rearing 12 puppies:o

I own a bitch and agree with you that it's a *nice* idea to have two related- such as Mother/Daughter but rather than breed from my bitch- I am infact going to go back to my breeder for her Nephew/Niece at the end of next year:) It's a lot easier- they're still related and I don't have to be responsible for finding and securing homes for the other seven puppies or however many there are:) Why have eight when I only want one?

Stacey x x x

i have a little knowledge of the breed, she's only six months old so who can say for sure what faults she has until she's fully matured i'm reading a lot on the breed doing what ever i can to expand on this subject, yes i'm no expert but is everyone??? as i said if i'm going to breed her that will not be till she is 2 1/2 years of age so the fact that i'm enquiring and gathering all the information that i can on this now means absolutely nothing to anyone the jury's already decided!!! and when poeple say you have to have this that and the other well let's get sensible if i was going to breed several times then yes you may be right, a good whelping box for the bitch to nest in, i'm sure they did'nt have heat lamps and such back in the early days, believe me if she's not suitabile for me to breed her then i wont be, and i'm quite offended that poeple think i'll do whatever i want regardless, please give me some credit????????

Scooby, you are right....they didn't have heat lamps when we 1st started breeding hounds....we had old paraffin heaters and ended up losing lots of the puppies....but things have improved nowadays and we BUY HEAT LAMPS.

well all i can say sam is thank god i've got central heating ,... modern appliances,,,mmmmmmmmmmmm...

I haven't a clue what you are getting at Scooby.

Scooby, I have only ever had a dog as a pet but I think what they are trying to get through to you is that even if your dog only has a very, very minor fault, please forget about the breeding. This kind of careless breeding has caused us and our now 19month old Lab much heartache and pain for him all throughout his life. Please take their advice. tangle.

Scooby

Personaly I think you need a good whelping box for the bitch to whelp in regardless of how many litters you have.

Like Sam has pointed out, in the older days people did not have heat lamps and all the rest of the technology that we have today hence a lower survival rate of pups :)

When yours is such a numerically large breed, why do you want to breed from a bitch that has such an outstandingly, and hereditary noticable fault?

mmmmmmmmm,,..yes i would imagine the mortality rate was higher in the old days much the same as can be said for humans poeple live longer due to medical advances etc,,,. the point i've tried to make is she has'nt got as far as i can see badly undershot jaws which is why i'm off back to the vets i think there the "EXPERTS" many puppies have been brought into this world by all different types of poeple, my bitch to me is a good example of the breed to me compared to some so called staffies i've seen, she has a reasonable blood line her great grandfather is domino flashy,ch. among one of the champs in her blood line, the breeders came to see me today see how she is and get some pictures of her i asked them has she got the proper sissor bite they said she's fine hopefully all this will be cleared up at the vets, she a good dog with a brilliant temperment....

scooby, my dog too has champions on his pedigree and looks fine, no aggression whatsoever, breeder also asked for photos but if someone breeds with one of your dogs puppies please remember your little fault could become a big problem and cause distress to dog and owners. tangle.

as i've already said, i was told by a nurse at the vets when i first took her in 8 weeks old that she was slightly undershot, but when i compare my dogs teeth (close inspection) with pictures in the staffie books they look the same to me????

when it comes to evaluataing the breeding quality of a dog, then under no circumstances would I say a vet was the expert. Far better to seek the advice of someone who specialises in the breeding/rearing and showing of staffies.

o.k. how do i compare my dog with the breed standards???

Easy you get yourself and your dog to ringcraft, and then enter some shows. Based on a seasons showing (taking into account that your inexperience at first may make a differnce of a place or two), you will have a good idea if your bitch is middle of the road, in the top end of classes, or usually at the bottom.

This is the main reason that dog shows started, for breeders to compare and evaluate their breeding stock. Now many people just like to show reagardless whether they want to breed or not.

Attending shows alone without the dog and watching judging, and the quality of dogs that are winning under different judges will help, but usually only after a time, as at first all the dogs seem to be the same, as it isn't until you have been looking carefully that you notice the differencces that make a good or bad one.

so do you reccomend that i take her along with me to some small dog show's, maybe one that specialises in staffs, if so how would i go about finding such shows???

why not join one of the staffie breed clubs? You will then get sent details on the shows plus a newsletter full of staffie information etc. It will be a good way for you to meet other staffie people, and hopefully helpful exhibitors/breeders.

scooby,
as you have come to the boards for help and advice and are obviously concerned about your dog being undershot, would you then want to breed and pass and sell on to someone else the same as what you have, the next thing you will be asking about is a suitable stud dog, you will often see stud to approved bitches, meaning that, that stud dog owner would only want the best bitches of the breed for his dog to be used on as the dogs are nearly always blamed if there is anything wrong and the stud dog owner has to take responsability as well for the pups that his dog has produced,people only truly want to protect there breeds,regards tina

I am concerned but i dont think she is:-

X VxxxxV X

^xxxxxx^

right then let me try and explain the small x's being the front teeth the bottom one's fit neatly behind the top one's, and the bottom fangs fit neatly between the X 'n' V the same as it shows me in the book so you tell me?? hope you can understand my little diagramme!!!!!

By the sounds of your description your pup may not be undershot.An incorrect bite as a young pup often corrects itself by adulthood.
The top incisors(small front teeth)should fit snuggly infront of the bottom set.
In an undershot jaw the bottom incisors would be infront of the top ones so when looking from above you would be able to see the bottom teeth protruding.
Hope this makes sense,Archer.

sort of, so you understand what i'm saying i think, the bottom fang fits infront of the top big one but behind the small one, i'm i making any sense????!!!!

I understood you and agreed with Archer at first- it sounds right to me but now this last post's confused me- are they all alongside each other or are they literally behind?

Stacey x x x

yes top little fang then bottom fang then big top fang all snug in a row one two three when her jaws are closed