Outside the shops yesterday i saw a Pom clipped very short all over except for it's head and tail . It was panting a lot in the heat and i wondered if the owner had done it to keep it cool or for 'medicinal' reasons . Should Poms be clipped or do they have a special coat that is best left in place ?

As always double coated dogs are much better left with their coat.  A well groomed (and that's the secret!) coat will insulate against the heat as well as against the sun.  By clipping it off it's like us going out into the sun in our underwear - not a good idea at all!  Unfortunately many groomers don't know that or don't have the skill to quickly groom out a knotty coat and so clip off everything willy nilly. :(

If you look at labs in hot weather, they struggle just as much as a double coated dog.......

In hot countries, locals don't walk around in swimwear - they wear thin layers of natural fabrics, which has the same effect as a well groomed dog's coat.

The biggest influences that makes dog struggle in the heat is being overweight and inconsiderate owners who take them out in the heat of the day. :(

>If you look at labs in hot weather, they struggle just as much as a double coated dog.......

Labs are double-coated ... at least ours was. A smooth, shiny, weather-resistant top coat over a soft insulating undercoat.

> If you look at labs in hot weather, they struggle just as much as a double coated dog.......

???
Westcoast.. Labs are double coated

A correct coat on a Lab is a very thick dense waterproof undercoat, and a coarse topcoat..

Double coated dogs are NOT designed for warmer weather. their double coat is to protect from cold weather.

if you wore a double thickness coat on in the heat you would overheat. wearing thinner/looser clothes is more cooling.

clipping a double coated dog in the warm weather keeps the dog cooler and happier. its not an act of cruelty its about the comfort of the dog.

>wearing thinner/looser clothes is more cooling.

yes - the double-coat effect.

>clipping a double coated dog in the warm weather keeps the dog cooler and happier.

No, the coat protects the dog's skin. Removing it exposes the skin to the sun's rays and risks damage. Thorough correct grooming is far more effective at keeping the dog cool. You comb out the loose undercoat whilst leaving the protective guard coat in place.

Clipping pomeranians is not good!Clipping any double coated breed for that matter is not good as the coat is likely to grow back thicker and often like straw so it becomes much harder to groom anyway.I do have lots of customers ask me to do it but always refuse,its just not worth it.Nine times out of ten the dog is having problems with the heat because its overweight(as Westcoast said).

Sorry Kay, I should have typed 'smooth coated'. :)

I do have lots of customers ask me to do it but always refuse,

Good for you Helen - I wish that more would! :)

>Double coated dogs are NOT designed for warmer weather. their double coat is to protect from cold weather.

I disagree with you there.  A Double coat proects from ALL weathers.  In colder climates double coated breeds have very thick, in hotter cliamtes they have not so thick hair but still double coated.  You will normally be able to tell though as it's the undercoat that goes thinner as that is the insulation for keeping them warm.  So this would be thinner in the hotter climates.  the top coat is what protects the dog from heat etc and therefor should NEVER be cliped off.

Even here in the UK you get the winter coat and summer coat.  when the weather starts to warm up the double coated breeds loose their undercoat first, not their top coat.

It's like wearing a thin cotton t-shirt in the summer but then proctecting yourself with another thin layer such as a shoul.

>clipping a double coated dog in the warm weather keeps the dog cooler and happier.

Sorru I have never seen a cliped dog in the UK look cooler and happier.  Infact my black tri aussies used to cope better then some dogs I saw on the walks :( 

JWilson you don't know Pom's very well then if you believe this!  I have had them for over 30 years would never ever clip one and they are fine in the sun with a full coat.  Unfortunately rubbish groomers started this craze a number of years back, the dogs look stupid and it does nothing to benefit them at all, just make them look daft.  Sadly America as everything have ruined a good number of breeds by clipping them in stupid ways and then trend slowly but surely catches up in the UK.

> Sadly America as everything have ruined a good number of breeds by clipping them in stupid ways and then trend slowly but surely catches up in the UK.

i've never understood why you would get a coated dog and clip it all off- whats the point? surely people initially were attracted to the breed because of its looks? and the smallest bit of reasearch shows that a properly coated dog does better than a shaved one.

> i've never understood why you would get a coated dog and clip it all off- whats the point? surely people initially were attracted to the breed because of its looks? and the smallest bit of reasearch shows that a properly coated dog does better than a shaved one.

Ah but there are a lot of owners out there who underestimate the work required to keep the dog looking good :-( They try, lose the battle, the coat matts and they get it all clipped off - lo and behold, a dog that's easy to groom is returned to them so they start again, but the coat is even harder to control and before you know it the dog is getting clipped every few weeks to save them the effort - sad but true :-(

I dont get it either - ive got a tibetan terrier pup and people are always asking me when hes going for his first haircut...... HE ISNT!

I bought a tibby because of the coat (and the temperament, size and character, but the coat was a big part of it) - im not going to cut it off! I also bought a grooming table, brushes, dryer (hairdressers salon one though!) shampoo and conditioner etc so that i was prepared to deal wtih the long coat BEFORE it became a problem.

Jwilson - insulation works both ways, it CANT only work the one way. Put coffee in a thermos outside in the cold and the coffee will stay hot. Put icecream in a thermos outside in the heat..... does the icecream melt, no!

The properly groomed double coated dog works much the same - it IS possible for the dog to get too hot but then the dog creates heat itself, if you keep that dog from hurtling about (ie not exercising it in the hottest part of the day), then they can stay cool - whip the coat OFF and they cant.

For us, taking our clothes off can be beneficial BECAUSE we sweat all over our bodies, and the slighest hint of a breeze and we can cool down, but even then unless we want to get badly burned, wearing loose thin layers will insulate us far better from heat or cold than anything else. Since dogs only sweat through their paws, theres no benefit to shaving them bald.

>I dont get it either - ive got a tibetan terrier pup and people are always asking me when hes going for his first >haircut...... HE ISNT!

GOOD FOR YOU!! :-D :-D :-D

I hate seeing Tibetans and other long coated dogs all clipped off - It does nothing for their waterproofing or heat proofing :(

Our Afghan X  - full coated like a 'real' one - used to get his undercoat combed out and the long coat left - being coal black I expected him to suffer in a heat wave, but he was the only one of us not affected :)   Of course he didn't get dragged round for a walk (stagger more like :( ) in the heat of the day either ;)   I was never tempted to cut/thin/clip his coat either - it was beautiful and kept him warm in winter, dry in the rain and cool in summer :)

But I would have thought, the MOST I would do for a long coated  breed (and infact what I do with my non show setters) is just cut the coat a little shorter then if they were shown.   So undercoat and top coat stay the same but coat become more manageable.  Never understood the shaved look, especially on rough collies!  Why not get a smooth insted!!!!!!!

I do admit to trimming the fuzz around his winkle area.... on account of him having a bizarre wave to his coat and him weeing on himself (his newfound 'tripod weeing', which he is everso proud of, is not quite refined yet!)..

I think, and i don my tin hat and prepare to be shot down in flames here... two things going on.

Firstly, a lot more groomers who are trained the 'shave 'em bald' way. Scissoring is NOT easy, and even less so on a dog not trained to stand nicely, and even less so for a groomer trying to fit enough dogs into their day to make the job pay.

Secondly - an AWFUL lot of owners dont KNOW what their breed actually ought to look like! They also cant be bothered to groom and bath and teach their dogs to behave for this - its incredibly tempting to leave young Errol days without brushing him, his puppy coat doesnt really matt particularly, and bathing him... he gets mucky again in minutes. But i know if i DID then when i DO need to do it he will be an absolute nightmare (and sadly ive so little faith in groomers having seen pictures on their websites, that i am not about to take him to one in a hurry!).

I think a lot of people just dont realise the reality of a long coated dog either - the amount of crud Errol can bring into the house (As he has just done this minute) is astounding and hes only diddy, and i have far far bigger dogs than him! (and an already fairly squalid house so it takes some for me to notice additional filth!).

ice_queen.... people shave Rough Collies??????????? Wow. I thought id seen the worst when I saw a pic of a shaved GSD (and it wasnt a long coat either!) but that really is bad!

I  dont get why people want all their shi tzus, lhasas, tibbies, etc to have that shaved body, floofy head/tail/feet thing.... get a poodle people!

FAO Jwilson:

With regard to you statement:

> Double coated dogs are NOT designed for warmer weather. their double coat is to protect from cold weather.
>
> if you wore a double thickness coat on in the heat you would overheat. wearing thinner/looser clothes is more cooling.

Please read the following:
Temperature adaptation in the Northern Breeds
Explains the principle of insulation well :) You appear by your statement slightly misguided or misinformed, hope this helps to clarify :)

Unfortantly yes I have seen shaved Rough Collies!   It was his summer trim :(  Poor thing wa really struggling to cope with the heat....

I have a long haired, double coated breed and whether to clip or not is a common subject for discussion and often extremely emotive. Those that clip (normally non show dogs) swear they are doing what's best for their dogs. Those that don't are adamant they are doing their dogs disservice. It's clear they all have their dogs' best interest at heart though.
I try not to judge people and guess if they can't for what ever reason manage the coat then the dog is better of being clipped, an extremely matted coat must be most uncomfortable

That said I would never have mine clipped. Their coats are hard work and my youngster who is changing to his adult coat at the moment is a positive nightmare at times, but I knew what I was getting in to when I got him and enjoy the time spent grooming, I see it as a bonding experience.

The problem is Hugos there is yes people think they are doing the best because thats what they were told by the mis informed groomers.  I would hope all groomers would hve knowledge on how dogs coats work but it appears some don't.  The general dog owning public take the advise of the "expert" which is wrong.  But it's human nature to believe someone in authority, hense why we do what the polie tell us, we always take doctors advise etc.

Owners always try to do their best but without knowledge it's impossible.  Maybe we here on this forum, because alot of us show and breed, or even if your on a forum you want to learn as much as possible, we expect everyone to have knowledge on the breed/dog they own.

There can certainly be a problem with some groomers.
While on holiday recently I was walking my friends two dogs (same breed as mine) I got talking to a lady who had asked what dogs I had. I told her and she said, oh you must come and visit my shop I'll soon have their coat sorted out, I pointed out that they were supposed to look like that and she said that she had only met one other and because it was clipped she thought they were meant to be clipped off.
She seemed very nice but genuinely didn't have a clue. I have never used a groomer so I have no idea if her response is common or not. I had assumed they would at least learn how different breeds should be groomed while training even if they didn't necessarily come across them.

The woman next door to me has a Tibetan Terrier and has it clipped really short in the summer on the advice of her boys' breeder. She was told the risk of them overheating is really high. She thinks I am being really cruel leaving mine in full coat and often tells me how much more comfortable a short coat would be.

Well I've got a breed that has a thick wooly coat and they don't really suffer from the heat at all - I leave the kitchen door open so they can run in and lie on the cool floor before tearing round the garden again.  Their colour (black) is more of a problem than the weight of the coat (dark colours retain heat, light colours reflect heat).  Also if a dog is well groomed (read brushed) there would be plenty of airflow through the coat to cool them down (and keep them warm in the cold).  Correct me if I'm wrong (it's been known before)?

> Ah but there are a lot of owners out there who underestimate the work required to keep the dog looking good

fair enough but then i've never understood those who don't do proper research before buying a dog either :)

> bought a tibby because of the coat (and the temperament, size and character, but the coat was a big part of it)

understandably, they are gorgeous looking- such cheeky faces :)

> such cheeky faces

LOL - yes its usually got something of mine firmly clamped between its jaws as well...

Errol doesnt seem to be struggling any more than any of my other dogs in this heat, the one suffering the most is Abby, because shes old really.... ive gotten out a lot of undercoat and shes a lot better but you'd think a Saluki type would be better than this in the heat (*though i guess she probably was in her prime... not now at 14).

Errol seems to have the sense to go and lay down on the cold hard floor, or in the shade, and for a 8 month old pup, hes streets ahead of Kelda (2 year old deerhound) and takes himself off to the shade in the garden and wont even let her tempt him out to chase a toy or hump her head!

Kelda would stand in the heat all day if i let her!

lol, he sounds a cheeky monkey :)

i just love the name Kelda as well :)

Problem is a lot of groomers aren't interested in the showing side of things, so they don't know or care what the dog 'should' look like! My friend who is a groomer is always trying to persuade me to clip my American cocker's coat short, grr! And at grooming college we were taught to clip a Cavalier like a cocker (and yes, I know cockers shouldn't be clipped either). When I do pet Cavs I shorten the feathering and give them a good go through with the Coat King, that seems to work nicely. :-)

at grooming college

In my experience, that's exactly where most of the problems come from, although there are some grooming schools who also sell 'I can teach you how to clip it all off every breed in 4 weeks' too. :(

Clipping is the easiest thing to learn, although it would appear that not all groomers know how to do that safely either!  But thinning, scissoring, stripping and even dematting all take much longer to perfect and it would appear that many never master these more difficult skills and are happy to send every breed out with the back clipped and a hovercraft for a skirt whatever the breed! :( :( ;)

I'm always shocked when groomers clip their own dogs that should be handstripped.  If they had any knowledge and expertise, their own dog would be a perfect advert for the quality of their work. :)

> I'm always shocked when groomers clip their own dogs that should be handstripped. If they had any knowledge and expertise, their own dog would be a perfect advert for the quality of their work.

That's something I can never understand. There's a new groomer opened up near me - straight out of college. Everything comes out looking the same - she has some 'before and after' pictures in the window, and TBH most of the 'befores' look far better than the 'afters'. There's an OES, a Lhasa Apso and a Westie, all with exactly the same 'trim'. then i saw her with her own dogs - a once shaggy crossbred and an oversize Yorkie - and they have the same trim as well!!!

We got talking about grooming (the grooming parlour is in our local pet shop) and she offered to clip my two. I hope I didn't look too horrified :(   I asked if she did hand-stripping and she said "No, I have electric ones" ;)  Turned out she didn't even know what hand-stripping was!!!

Turned out she didn't even know what hand-stripping was!!!

At least she didn't tell you that it hurts!! :(  And all off with a hovercraft isn't a good look is it? :) :)  And the owners think that the groomer knows what they're doing ............ and thinks that their dog SHOULD look like that!

It really is a very sorry state of affairs isn't it?  When I started working at a grooming school 25+ years ago, it really wasn't like that.  Groomers wanted to learn to trim to the breed standard and if you paid good money to send your dog to the parlour, it would come home looking good and as it should.

Now, and particularly since City & Guilds started gaining publicity to be honest, the majority of groomers clip everything and aren't aware of what the breeds should look like or what are the benefits of handling a coat correctly. :( 

Having said that same thing has happened to dog breeding hasn't it?  Everyone with a bitch thinks that they can produce puppies and the quality is irrelevant.  :(

Great link - thanks. 
I've always worried about Heidi [Elkhound] in the heat - sorry didn't really have a clue before we had her.  She doesn't like the heat much sort of - she finds nice cool places to lie - tiled/laminated/shaded concrete flooring. Yes, she drools loads ehen hot too, The article really makes sense to me.  Done quite a bit of walking/hiking and the theme for climate control there is layering - fabrics that can keep you warm can also keep you cool.  Sounds crazy but it works!  Just like double glazing - double coating creates an 'air gap' that maintains a constant temperature within ie cold and heat are 'transformed' within the coat so the skin [where the temperature really counts] is maintained ata fairly constant heat.    I hope I've understood this right - that's what I got from the article anyway - along with my obxervations of Heidi - my Northern breed dog.
I've also learned lots from others contributions too - lots of food for thought.

>Now, and particularly since City & Guilds started gaining publicity to be honest, the majority of groomers clip >everything and aren't aware of what the breeds should look like or what are the benefits of handling a coat >correctly.

The majority of groomers that I have met couldn't even recognise most of the dog breeds and weren't that bothered to find out   It frightens me that they are ignorant of one of the most basic parts of being a groomer :(   If they can't recognise the breed they have no hope of knowing how its coat should be handled :( 

Sadly owners don't help - I get asked to people's dogs "because I'm bound to be cheaper than the groomer they go to"    When I find out how much they pay, my usual answer is that they're getting ti too cheap already!

My BC suffers in this weather he finds every bit of shade on a walk. At home the BC is under the aircon and the CS in the sun!!
Jake runs and runs then flops in the sun, Whistler just keeps on truckin rain, shine and heatwave. Mind you the trip home after a walk is pant pant pant full blast!even after a cold drink., The old fellow up the allotments sets up two old saucepans with cold fresh water twice a day - now thats cooperation and a true dog lover (good taste as well he has the oldest BC I have ever seen, its grumpy but only when hasselled by whippersnapers).

Saw a Pom in our park this week and looked strange as it had been clipped. I asked the person holding the lead if the dog had a problem that meant he had to be clipped. It turned out that he was just minding this dog whilst the owner was on holiday. He said that the owner did not groom him regular and the groomer had no alternative as it would have been cruel to try and get the knots out. Why do people choose these breeds if they are not prepared to put in the work required. The chap said that the dog loved getting brushed and combed as he had been doing it whilst in his charge. He has recently lost his own dog and was so sad that at the end of the fortnight he would have to hand over this little chap. He would dearly love another himself but due to him being a retiree can not afford to buy one. How sad a story is that!!

It's shocking that some groomers are just clip joints.. and I've seen a few that do operate this way....
but as a new groomer, I'd like to defend my corner a bit, and say that I hope I'm not just an exeption to the rule in that I have worked long and hard to study properly, study the breed standards, and I certainly wouldn't and don't clip everything in sight.. and I can hand strip :D

My groomer sees's Whistler every 8 weeks and occasionally does clip him underneath for me but she hand strips him up top and also keeps his skirt short, thats where we catch the burrs.
His coat has taken over 18 months to co me good from a real fur babyto a silky coat, we started stripping at about 6 months a little at a time. Phylis is so good that she would tell me that he "had had enough" so she would stop. I agree if you have a long coated dog you should take time to do your bit.I grab the grooming (shoe) box and my two head for the patio table. Up on the table and we are off. Is anyone else noticing ticks are rampant? I use Advantix regulalrly and yet I have taken 4 off Whistler and one off Jake already.  We are also coming into grass seed season I hate grass seeds they look like maggots..

Well done Tracey! I too do handstripping, and I am gradually building up a clientele of people who want their Cavaliers with just feathering trimmed, Shih Tzus in puppy trims instead of clipped off, and so on - much more satisfying then the 7F all over jobs!