hi all :)
i have my first liter due soon.
ive seen you all jump on many of people who start with that so ill quickly explain so you dont LOL

both sire and dam are pedigree with main register papers, hip and eye scored. i live on 3 acers and quick capable and willing to keep puppies if i have too, i have names and mumber of good people who are willing to give puppies great homes and i used to work as a vet nurse before i became a mother.

anyway i have been tossing up weather to build a whelping box with pig rails. i have heard good and bad, im still undecided. mum is a medium size breed, this is also her first liter so im unsure weather she would squash them.

id appreciate your thought?

Thanks Rhiannan

sorry about he spelling mistakes, i have misplaced my glasses atm

I didn's use pig rails...my breed is medium sized about 22" at whithers and weighs 21kg (normally....he gawd knows what she weighs at the moment as expecting pups in a few days)

My whelping bow is 48" x 44" so plenty of room for her and pups. I can see the benefit of pig rails but my bitch is excellent never once even laying on a pup she was always very good at keeping an eye out for them. But in saying that doesnt mean the pups won't creep beind her.

I have heard horror stories about pups getting stuck in them and mum getting back leg caught etc so I decided against them but ultimately it is your choice you know your bitch.

Hi Rhiannan  :-)

Kelly is right about you knowing your bitch.  I don't use them, but I only breed toy size.  any CD'ers that do use them have some innovative ideas on how to avoid problems.  Maybe if you try googling pig rails (at bottom of screen), you may find the thread that had loads of ideas on pig rails.  Or someone will be along later I'm sure.  This is a great place to hear about the experience of others, problems and solutions. 

I've often been really pleased with ideas from others.  Sometimes it's something simple, and I've just never thought of it. 

Thanks for your replys im still in two minds as its her first litter im unsure what kind of mum she will be I think she will be ok but she is a bit goofy at times lol she is about 22  inch as well. Is it ok to mention my breed as im in australia   

Eh I don't think it is....its part of the terms of service...you can PM me if you wish though :)

>Is it ok to mention my breed as im in australia   

I'm afraid not; Champdogs is UK-based but is internationally-read.

I used pigrails with my litters (dalmatians - I can mention the breed because I'm not breeding!) and found them very useful for the first week till the bitch was more confident and the pups more mobile. Then I took them out.

> whelping box with pig rails

We do use pig rails but our dogues are quite heavy and can be clumsy.

I'm sure there was a thread on here recently about using pig rails if you do a search.

Thank you. I think i'll use pig rails to start and if she has dramas with them i'll take them out. I read the rules so I understand not to post my breed now thanks. Any other tips I should know. She is due 2nd july  

Good Luck!  :-)

My large breed bitches weight 20 to 24 kgs (slimline but tall) and I would never NOT use pigrails for them. In every litter I've had puppies have now and then ended up behind mum's back (with her having the back to the pig rails) without her seeming to notice, so the pig rails have helped a lot. But it's vital to put them in the right position, too high up or too low down, too far in or too far out and they won't work. We've had to move ours more than once in the past and fit them according to the pups actual sizes at birth.

I have never used pig rails, but have no intention of NOT using them next time after mum squashed and killed a puppy :-( I'd only just gone out to the bin :-( My bitches weigh 26-31 kilos.

I used to use wooden whelping boxes with pig rails but i sadly, still lost a couple pups. Ive now taken to using inflatable paddling pools. No, they dont get popped and we managed to keep our last litter in it with Mum until they were 4 weeks old before they started having the run of of a more flaxible box and kitchen. The pool is nice for Mum cos she can lie on her side and be comfortable and the pups dont get trapped underneath her. Weve used these for 5 litters now and not had one scare

Nicky
xx

I alway use them but we use while plastic plumbing pipe that has the special corners. They sit on a bit of the tube also in the 4 corners. Once they get to a few weeks old I just lift it out.

I would always use them just incase.  Rather be prepared that regretful..

I have a small but chunky breed and always use rails for the first few weeks. I'd defiantely use them with a first time mum, she may well be clumsy, especially if she's abit confused or unsure.

I would never not use them as my grandparents didn't for their first litter and had a squashed pup :(  So learning from their mistakes 40 years ago I will try and avoide making them myself.  For my most recent litter we used pig rails but they are free standing (come with whelping box) so they are easy to removed.  For the first week mum was very unsure and clumsy and we had to watch 24/7 especially when she was about to lay down.  However at 2 & half weeks the biggest pups were having to squeeze under them, or trying to climb over!  by this time the mum was alot better and so careful when he laid down, plus the pups are that much stronger we only kept them in at night for a couple of nights.  Not used the free standing ones before but they have been fantastic.

I've never used them and not had any problem, but then I don't leave them unattended for quite some time. 
I have a friend who has always used them because he thought that his bitches were clumsy but he rang me in tears one day because while he was sitting on the floor in front of the whelping box, his bitch stood up to turn around and while he was gathering the pups, she sat down quickly and he heard a crack!  Just goes to show that you can never be too careful. :(

> first time mum, she may well be clumsy, especially if she's abit confused or unsure.

or if there is a section involved- some bitches don't do well with recovering from anaesthesia. Kizzy was very dopey after hers.

Never used them and never had a problem in over 30 years of owning and occasionally breeding dogs.  Not in any way calling them though.

i have never used pig rails. i used a cardboard box eg old tv box works well as the sides are high and you dont get any draughs, cut a bit out of the front so she can get in and out.  never lost a pup yet in 4 litter, and this litter are 4 days old now

never used them but i never leave the pups unattended at all until they are 4 weeks, i sleep on the sofa until then too. If i used pig rails i would still be getting up at every squeak and everytime mum gets in or out the box and would leave then unattended at all so they wouldnt make much difference to me to be honest, but they certainly cant do much harm if fitted properly.

I think some people could make the mistake of thinking that pig rails make the whelping box completely safe, but mum can still lay down on one or tread on one getting in or out as has already been mentioned on here.

Cant beat constant supervision :)

I always think in situations like this that because she is a first time mum that having the pig rails isnt going to do any harm.  Better to be safe than sorry.

Im a stay at home mum and pretty much a hernit so I 'll be home to watch her all the time. I have heard about the blow up pools but it is winter so I cant get them anyway , only the hard clam shape ones are in stock.

We used pig rails and it saved the life of 2 of the pups as the bitch constantly sat on them, but she is a large breed dog, as some others have said they are good if they are fitted right.

Hi - I've nothing to add, but just wanted to say....nice name ;)

When I registered I couldn't use Rhiannan as a user name as it was already taken! I thought it was unusual as Rhiannan is normally spelt Rhiannon. Anyway, nice to meet another Rhiannan :)

I always think in situations like this that because she is a first time mum that having the pig rails isnt going to do any harm.  Better to be safe than sorry.

Exactly, that is my moto to it. Some of the comments would make you think that people are suggesting them as an alternative to supervision. My puppies are never left unsupervised BUT guess what I use the pig rail for the first 2 weeks.   I like them it provides a little shelf and my pups go under them and sleep. They seem to like them. ( I have a small breed)

  I use any method/methods I think that could provide additional support.  We have a 3 people team round the clock when having puppies but there is always that 5 mins where you and the bitch are completely exhausted and can fall asleep or have nipped for a toliet break. yes the pups can get squashed but it just gives me additional comfort that I have them.

I am not saying anyone is wrong for not using them but I think it is wrong for anyone to suggest that people use them as an alternative to supervision because they use them. :-)

Hmm now considering puppy rails lol

Can anyone advise at what heights they usually put them at and do you use skirting board type wood (i.e 3/4" x 4") or do you use poles?

She was fine last time but like you point out you just never know

I use pure white plumbing pipe.   I am not sure of the height right now but We cut pieces of the pipe and use them as legs also for the support so there is are no square edges etc. Works perfectly for me. I can send a photo to anyone who wants to see how it looks.

Blue that would be really kind of you...I will PM you my email if that's ok :)

I always use disposable cardboard whelping boxes - You can buy them with puppy rails or without and you just screw them into the sides of the box. The box is already marked so that you know where to screw them in. I can provide web address where you can buy them if needed.

Hi Rhiannan

I only used pig rails once and wouldn't use them again.  About 5 years ago we had a litter, a pup was behind mum and under the pig rail she never knew that he was there and as he was about 6 days and getting bigger she was squashing him.  It is lucky that we never leave pup's unattended untill they are about 18 days as I am sure we would have lost him.  We are lucky that we have grown up children who are more than willing to help on the puppy watch..............so even with pig rails i think that you have to still be very careful.  Best of luck with the whelping, we have a litter due on the 24th, such a stressfull wait.

I'm sure I read somewhere, (maybe on here) that the best height for pig rails is the height of the middle of mums tum when she's lying on her side? If that makes sense!

Pigrails also have to have reasonable depth, IE at least the depth of a puppy until 7-10 days or what is the point.

I can't understand Jake's example,  I think he/she is saying the pup was going to be squashed regardless. In that case the pig rails could not have been the right size. If they are of suitable size and the puppy is caught at the sides at the most the puppy would be " trapped" but not squashed as in to death.

Unless the example is a bitch sitting on a puppy in the centre of the box which of course can happen regardless that is why we must supervise also. That said the mothers generally do lie to the sides of the box.

Exactly Blue, and like I said I my reply higher up I've had to move pig rails in the past to ensure they were exactly right for the pups in question.

Yip , we generally have one shifty up during the first 2 weeks at least.

> I've had to move pig rails in the past to ensure they were exactly right for the pups in question

That's right. We've used cardboard whelping boxes for our more recent litters and you can move the pig rails to any height you like. So we start off with the rails in the recommended place on our large breed box, then see how things go and move the rails accordingly. 
Pig rails are not a substitute for supervision but do (IMHO) offer a bit of additional protection in the early weeks.