I'm new to this site and I was hoping that someone could please give me some advice?

I have bred a litter of puppies, they are 4 1/2 weeks old now and one of the puppies that I was going to keep has a breed fault. This has only become apparent over the last couple of days and as I was going to keep her to continue my line, I will no longer be keeping her.

The fault is that she carries her tail too high (above her back) - This will cause her no health problems and is not anything horrendous, it just means that she won't be suitable for breeding / showing. She's such a lovely character and I'm gutted, I could really see her fitting in with our other bitches, and the funniest thing is that she only sticks the tail up when she's happy or running around excitedly!! She will make a wonderful pet for someone, I am hoping to find her a nice family to settle in with - My query was, should I be selling her at discount price with an endorsement on her KC papers???

Any info would be greatly appreciated as I have never experienced this before!

Thanks.

Hi pet quality puppies go to pet homes, endorse her but i wouldnt reduce as there is nothing wrong with her petwise. Make sure you get a signed contract of the new owners agreeing to the endorsements or they are not worth the paper they are written on. How dissapointing for you not to be able to keep her.

If there's time, please can you go back and edit out the mention of the breed? It's against the TOS of this site to mention breed when referring to puppies for sale.

If the fault has no bearing on health then there's no reason why the price should be reduced. Certainly endorse the registration; many breeders endorse all the registrations as a matter of course, because even the best puppies might not fulfil their potential.

Sorry about that, I have amended now.

I would hold fire on making any decisions , unless the tail is flying too high...

although not your breed.. I kept 2 pups from a litter, the boy carried his tail much higher than the rest.. but, by 7 weeks old, his tail carraige was much better.. by 6 months it was near perfect.. and qualified (2nd) in Minor puppy out of a class of 15 ..

Is the pups tailset correct.. or is this where the fault lies, rather than the carraige..

If so, then by all means let her go to a pet home, . do not sell the pup short.. there should never be any reason to discount a pup.. place endorsements, and let her go as a companion..

to be honest.. the majority of the remainder of all show/working bred pups go to companion homes after the show/working pups are chosen.. there is never any differential in price.. they should all be worthy of each other..

I would wait another couple of weeks before making a final decision..

If she didn't lift the tail up it would be perfect but she should hardly be able to move the tail at all other than wagging, she certainly shouldn't be able to stick it up in the air and it shouldn't move at all during movement, should be held down very close to the bottom. It's nice that your pup changed his carriage but if I'm honest I don't think mine will. :-(

I would wait another couple of weeks before making a final decision..

I agree.  At 4.5 weeks pups tend to use their tails to balance as they are learning about co ordination.  I have had pups doing that at 8 weeks but because the tail set is right, they've been fine as adults.  Can you ask some experienced breeders in your breed to look at her for you?

Yes I did consider that - There is a large kennel close to me (where we used the stud) so I could ask her to take a look.

I would be so pleased if it turned out ok!

Thank you all for your advice.

Sorry, I replied to your blog entry.  But if it's the only fault, and only noticable at 4.5 weeks I'd run with it.  Best to get input from other expert bulldog breeders though - ones that are up on all of the new stuff that has been going on in the breed.  But like I said, if it's only ONE fault...

Your making a choice this early?  One of my puppies (little younger then yours) started flying her tail, then one of the boys did, afew days later her tails was fine all day but someone elses was high.....they change constantly but at 2 weeks they all had lovely looking tail sets so I wouldn't disregard her yet, not untill 8 weeks at least.

As for endorsments.  All our pups par the one we are keeping (all same colour so just not endorsed our choice of name)  Weather going to show or pet they are endorsed which will be lifted if required if suitable.  I know it varies in breeds but for my breed we don't reduce mis-mark puppies, the price is the same whatever sex as they are all well bred, well reared and equal. 

I think the main concern for me is that she shouldn't be able to lift her tail and she can.

I appreciate what you're saying about it being early and they're still young etc so I will just have to wait and see.

It's just a concern to me as like I said, I've never ever ever seen it before in my breed and have never had this predicament with anything I have bred.

Your best bet is to wait and see.  you would be kicking yourself if you promised her to a lovely pet home and come when they pick her up her tail was back down and not being lifted at all.

You might be right but then again..."what if" :)

Yes you're right - I would definately kick myself!!

I think I will chat to the breeder who has the dad to the pups and see what she says and then just see what happens over the next cpl weeks.

Thanks.

Have you thought about keeping her back for a couple of extra weeks just to see if this problem rights itself. I've got a litter of 9, have the pick of the 4 bitches for myself, and have secretly chosen my pick but won't make final choice until several breed experts have come to assess them. That won't be until they are at least 6 weeks old.

At the moment their tails are being held way too high for my liking, but I think its just a phase and they'll drop them (I hope they do) in the next couple of weeks. I've got nothing to go by as it's our first litter, but will ask those more experienced than me their opinion. I know its a different breed, but maybe the advice of someone with lots of experience in your breed is what you need here.

I agree with Jeangenie, I would not reduce the price Why! she has the same pedigree as her litter mates, same line, carries the same gense. She has just thrown out the tail of her grandparents or great grandparents.
It means she would be no good for showing, but! it doesn't mean any of her pups would be the same. Endorsement are just a matter of chose. Most important she has no health problems. I personally think if you pay for a puppy and you have been vetted to the best of your ability the puppy belongs to the owner. If I brought a puppy with endorsments I would expect it to be of a lower quality also a lot lot cheaper than its litter mates. This is my personal opinion.

Denese

> If I brought a puppy with endorsments I would expect it to be of a lower quality also a lot lot cheaper than its litter mates.

this is a dreadfull statement to make.  and very incorrect..

I agree with kayc - It is incorrect. I also disagree with your statement regarding she wouldn't be suitable for showing but wouldn't necessarily pass it onto her pups - Why would you breed a dog that you thought did not conform with breed standard and take the risk of producing further puppies with faults??? If it is a breed fault there will not be any pups from her!!

If it does turn out to be a breed fault, I will be endorsing her pedigree simply to stop this 'fault' being passed, this wouldn't mean she's a lower standard. I will ensure I find her a pet home where the people wouldn't want to breed from her anyway so it wouldn't matter that she's endorsed!

????? Most breeders endorse puppies that go to pet homes including myself. We endorse puppies so that they are not exploited and bred for financial gain. Vetting doesnt have a crystal ball unfortunately and 16 months down the line they think they might make some money, even if they said to you that wouldnt they go ahead and breed her.

If i was buying a pup purely for a pet home i would most likely buy from a breeder who endorsed her pups as this shows she cares about the dogs she has bred. I think that we wouldnt be inundated with rescue pedigrees if only the breeders endorsed their pups.

ETA some breeders are still in the old fashioned state of mind that you can improve on a bitch with a good stud, albeit you can do for minor faults, conformation colour etc, but breeding is all about improving the breed and breeding from the best standard dogs, it would be going backwords otherwise.

Just to add to that statement.. since many people will read it..

endorsements are there for protection of pups.. whether we plan on allowing our pups into show/working/breeding/companion homes.. it is a little safeguard..

Most breeders endorse pups automatically, whether they are going to the above homes or not.. and if knowingly going into a show/working home, with a view to entering a breeding programme (hate that phrase, but it simplifies things) then a contract is entered into, that when and If ALL the required health tests are done, with satisfactory results, those restrictions can then be lifted..

It most certainly does not, nor ever will, mean that the pup is of a lesser/poorer quality, and should therefore be cheaper.. In fact, I could pretty much bet that some our our famous champions were endorsed on registration ;-)

> If I brought a puppy with endorsments I would expect it to be of a lower quality also a lot lot cheaper than its litter mates.

How odd?

All my pups are endorsed as a matter of course despite being of the highest quality.
Even the dogs I keep are endorsed until such times as they are fully health tested and I then decide to breed from them.
Buyers can still enjoy them fully and even show them at the highest level until such times as they prove to be of sufficient merit to enter the gene pool.
Endorsed dogs of mine, last year alone have won a CC - another one a huge class at Crufts and yet another BIS at a large general Open show along with several BP at Breed championship shows.

Lower quality? I dont think so.....careful breeder...definately

>but! it doesn't mean any of her pups would be the same.

Faults can be passed on, even skipping generations to reappear down the line.

>If I brought a puppy with endorsments I would expect it to be of a lower quality also a lot lot cheaper than its litter mates.

I'd disagree with that completely. I'd expect any puppy to be sold with endorsements, because there are no certainties about how a puppy will eventually turn out. Ugly ducklings can become swans, and vice versa, let alone the wait for health test results. So I'd view any breeder who sold unendorsed pups with grave suspicion - how many puppy farmers endorse the pups' registrations?

> All my pups are endorsed as a matter of course despite being of the highest quality.
> Even the dogs I keep are endorsed until such times as they are fully health tested and I then decide to breed from them.

Same here. We have been endorsing for many years all our pups (including dogs we have kept which have gone on to become Show Chs & current Ch show winning dogs).

Using endorsements has nothing to do with the quality of the pups - it's the best way of ensuring (as far as it's possible) that none of our puppies is bred from until the appropriate age and without the appropriate health tests being done etc. Endorsements also act as a deterrent to buyers seeking KC reg puppies just to breed from them in the future (although nothing can stop such people breeding outside the KC system of course)

Jeangenie,
There are a lot of top ch. dogs with no endorsements. Most puppy farms do not kc there puppies and any person would know the diffrence between a puppy farm and a litter breed in the home!!
As I said if I came to you! and you had a puppy that had a problem, that ment I could not show or may have a problem that If I wanted to, also was not fit for breeding, or any other problem why pay say £1000.00 for it to be endorsed. none export of pedigree I can understand! A lot of top breeders of high quality stock may keep a brood bitch and not show her for breeding stock as her pups could be top show dogs.

Denese

JaneS,
  When you have veted as best you can the puppy homes, you hope and trust the person involved would be in touch with you before breeding a bitch anyway. The other people would not care if they were endorsed or not.
I could argue both ways. But! if your dogs are of good stock why not just improve the stock out there instead of people using any stud of poor quality.
As if there dog is endorsed they might. I know of breeders who have been breeding over 30years had many ch, that feel the same as I personally do, if you pay a lot of money for your puppy they are not going to abuse it (except for rare cases) but! you get that everywhere. Shouldn't the puppy belong to the owner? If you have excellent stock why should you feel underconfident that your puppies would not be the same? 

Denese 

If you have excellent stock why should you feel underconfident that your puppies would not be the same? 
Quality stock needs to be mated to quality stock with a carefully chosen pedigree to produce quality puppies.  Just because the stock is of good quality it doesn't mean that it will produce quality pups if mated to pet quality mates. 

If a pet owner contacted the breeder with their intention, the pup has matured into the quality adult that it promised as a puppy, all the health tests are good and the chosen mate was compatible - not a complete outcross as most novice breeders consider 'checking the pedigree' - and not full of pet breeding, then maybe the breeder would consider lifting the endorsement if the breed had a small gene pool.

I wouldn't lift the endorsement on a puppy sold as a pet if the owner wanted to mate it to the pet dog round the corner......... :(

LucyMissy
O.K. so you are saying that why breed from a dog that you THOUGHT did not conform with breed standards!! Now does that mean! you breed from a dame that does not conform? that is where this puppy has been born from!
Just because a dame may have one pup that is not up to A standard out of her litter, that has had genes of dame and dog, does not mean her puppies with be the same. Good looks may be all some breeders are breeding for but! temprement must play a large part in the breeding. If I was to beleve all that I am being told to be true! there would be NO dogs out there with breeding faults, Correct!!
So no endorsements would be necessary!

Denese

WestCoast,
Again I could argue both ways, I personally know what I want out of mine.
I am not against line breeding. But! what is so bad with outcross, new blood needs to be introduced in to a line or it becomes to inbreed. Then puppies with cleph palate appear. I do understand what you say about a dog round the corner!! I just get concerned and wonder why so many endorsments.
So if you sell to a fellow breeder you would still put an endorsement on your puppy? Or if they had a puppy instead of a stud fee?

Denese  

All my Pups are sold with endorsements, I would not differentuate between Pet and show quality at 8 weeks old, many an ugly duckling has turned into a swan and vice versa. All my pups are of sound temp, health tested, and hopefully of good breed type. Therefore I will sell every one for the same price, regardless of pet or show home. The time and money not to mention effort put into my breeding is the same for each pup. If I had a mismarked pup that I sold to a pet home then it would go for the same money. I Breed with the everlasting hope of a nice Champion for myself, In my opinion the rest of the pups must go to excellent homes first and foremost, be they show or pet, and every pup will be endorsed, good or bad. I will only lift my endorsement under very strict circumstances, and I only wish I had your faith in the value of my vetting prosses, I do the best I can but the odd one can always slip  through the net and to think it "Will not happen to me" is foolish, therefor I hold the reigns and would never sell without an emdorsement. The only time I have let a pup go for less ( Nothing) was when I had one with Strangles and he was 12 weeks by the time I considered him fit to go to his new home, his new owners had waited patiently for him and they were the right people to have him. They chose him at 4 weeks and remained true to him all through his problems...they deserved that for giving him the best home.
Aileen

what is so bad with outcross,
You get a complete hotchpotch of a litter.  If you're going to outcross then you need to know all the dogs (possibly their siblings too) in both pedigrees (as you do with line breeding too but for different reasons) to know that you are breeding to the same type if not bloodlines.

Then puppies with cleph palate appear.
Why would cleft appear?  Problems only appear if they are already in the line, they don't just appear.  That's the importance of knowing the dogs in the pedigree and a novice breeder can't possibly know that or know what they are risking for the puppies.

So if you sell to a fellow breeder you would still put an endorsement on your puppy?
I only sell to a fellow exhibitor/breeder if I approved of their method of breeding.  Otherwise I prefer my pups to go into pet homes.

Or if they had a puppy instead of a stud fee?
I would never give a puppy instead of a stud fee.  I mostly (not always) find that suitable studs live in kennels but would not want one of my pups to live in kennels. :)

I just get concerned and wonder why so many endorsments.
I endorse to protect my bloodlines that I don't want abused by pet matings and also to protect my pups.  I happily help and encourage anyone who shows interest in the breed and wants to learn and show their pup.  I will not encourage or help anyone who just wants to produce puppies.  I wouldn't want to have risked (I'm too old now!) a baby with just my well meaning best friend with me - I would have wanted a trained and knowledgable midwife. 
I started endorsing my pups many years ago when a lady who had bought a bitch as a pet rang and said that she wanted to mate her.  I told her all the potential problems but she went ahead.  She rang later to tell me that the bitch had died 8 weeks in whelp with a problem that needed Veterinary intervention but she didn't have the experience to know that.  That was the day that all future pups were endorsed!

any person would know the diffrence between a puppy farm and a litter breed in the home
Many puppies bred in the home by novice/ignorant back yard breeders can often be no better than puppy farm puppies. :(

>any person would know the diffrence between a puppy farm and a litter breed in the home!!

It's far from uncommon for puppy farmed litters to be taken to the supposed 'breeder's' home to make it look as though they're home-reared.

>that ment I could not show or may have a problem that If I wanted to, also was not fit for breeding, or any other problem why pay say £1000.00 for it to be endorsed.

Because it's cost exactly the same to 'produce' as any of the other puppies. And, of course, endorsements can always be lifted if the dog proves worthy of furthering its genes. I endorse all my puppies - even the ones I keep myself.

>there would be NO dogs out there with breeding faults, Correct!!

No, because we're dealing with living organisms, which can go wrong at any time. The fact that this particular puppy has a conformation fault means that it's possible that somewhere back in the ancestry another individual did. The sire and dam, grandsires and granddams could all have perfect tail carriage, but the gene could have been passed down without showing itself, and that pup could have been sold as 'just a pet' - but without endorsements there's nothing to stop any puppies being registered. These pups could all have perfect tail carriage - but the gene is there. That's why you endorse puppies.

>LucyMissy
>O.K. so you are saying that why breed from a dog that you THOUGHT did not conform with breed standards!!

Where did LucyMissy say that the dam doesn't conform to the standard?

In future if I buy a puppy I wouldn't go near a breeder who doesn't endorse their puppies. I can't think of any reason why a good breeder wouldn't endorse the litter.

No, neither can I. To me a lack of endorsements means the breeder's saying "It's all yours, do what you like. I don't want anything more to do with it."

That is a very unfair comment Jeangenie, that may be your opinion.
Any breeder that spends the time and money breeding there dogs with care does not make them a bad breeder just because they have not put endorsements on them. People have there opinions just like you do, who to say at the end of the day who is right!!
Who is to say that breeders who put endorsements on there puppies are better breeders and have better stock!
I can say that I have come across some breeders that have endorsements on there puppies. I personally would not buy them as in my opinion there stock was not as good as others. That had no endorements.
It is fair to say you want automatically get a better puppy because it has an endorsment.

Denese 

My oldest bitch has two CCs and she was bought endorsed -that was lifted when the breeder agreed  -she'd been hip scored, eye tested, done well at shows etc. My male dog that I own myself and bred myself has one CC and HE is still endorsed. I've bred one dog and one bitch that I've sold that each have an RCC, they are both endorsed. I could go on with more examples!

Who is to say that breeders who put endorsements on there puppies are better breeders and have better stock!

Not me.  I've been some pups bred from very poor representatives of their breed with endorsements because the bybs have read that it's the right thing to do. :(

Who is to say that breeders who put endorsements on there puppies are better breeders and have better stock!

Because they CARE. Anyone who does NOT endorse isn't careful enough. One of my best friends had a bitch from my last litter, bitch went BP at her first ever champ.show and I trust this person more than anyone else I know outside the family yet her pup is still endorsed and will stay so until she has had all relevant health tests and any breeding plans have been discussed with me. All my puppy buyers have welcomed the endorsements with open arms as it proves I do care what happens to my pups.

denese, not critisising, but why not have them? its no bother to lift them if the time comes.

Personally I think all pups should have restrictions on them as standard, and the opt out clause should be the norm.. not the opt in..

WestCoast,
You obviously would do your homework before outcross/diffrent line.
I also agree about knowing what line you prefer.
I can understand your concern about your bitch, I would have been devastated.
Puppy farmers and back yard breeders, I personally do not think they would care about an endoresment anyway.
But! every breeder started of as a novice. even 30years down the line.
So who really owns the dog if it has many endorements?
If I had a dog/bitch which I havn't with a load of endorements I personnally would not feel that I owned him/her!
So does this mean with all the endorements on a puppy/dog that if it was no longer wanted it would be brought back? or that the person who had paid for it could not sell it on. If this was the case I would be all for it!
If the KC made a rule a dog had to be 2yrs old before day of mating dog/bitch would you still feel to endores your puppies.

Denese

lol.. just reminded me about my litter reg a few weeks ago.. a phone call from KC telling me I hadn't lifted the restrictions on my own girl.. Its a safeguard,

I wonder if some people are worried about purchasing pups with restrictions, simply because the know the KC will not register them, and if they try to.. the KC will contact the breeder.. so look for breeders who dont restrict, and then simply come away with excuses.. like those mentioned in this thread ;-)

Denese.. you are basically saying.. you don't endorse your pups, allowing anyone to breed from them... are you comfortable with that?

Back to the poor OP who seems to have got lost somewhere in the mist...

Lucy.. yes, if you do decide that you are going to find a good home for your pup.. endorse.. safeguard her future, but dont sell at a reduced price..

Denese have you ever bred a litter? Do you not realise what you saying? people are not honest never have been never will. If they pay for a dog costing a £1000 the average price for a pup of my breed, which is not endorsed they can make money tada! The way i see it endorsements are there to deter the unsuitable from breeding, whether it be that the persons an idiot, the pup isnt of a quality to be bred from, sold purely to a pet home.

I wish all puppies were endorsed that were going to pet homes, yes they buy a dog they think they should have the right to breed from it (a reason i refused a sale on my own pup) but its my pup and i have the right to sell to whoever i see fit, if i dont want it to be bred from then so be it.

If i ever breed another litter, puppies placed to pet homes will be just that pets and i will continue to place endorsements. The pups that go to potential show/breed homes will also be endorsed until health test have been passed to a satisfactory result, also i would like to stay in partnership with a pup as keeping litter mates may not be an option for me. Dogs that prove themselves to be a good standard health and conformation could be bred from which helps improve the breed, i also would like to get a say in pairing of dogs to make sure they compliment each other in the hope of retaining a pup in the future. People who disagree with endorsements being narrow-minded without seeing the bigger picture, after all its for the protection of the pup and betterment of the breed, if your a decent honest person why would you disagree to that.

It would also limit the amount of bybs who are churning out registered puppies as they wouldnt be able to if there pup was endorsed in the first place, i think quality and health would also be better.

Louise

Louise

If I had a dog/bitch which I havn't with a load of endorements I personnally would not feel that I owned him/her!

"A lot of endorsements", "All endorsements" -there are only TWO possibles! No progeny to be registered and not for export!

If the KC made a rule a dog had to be 2yrs old before day of mating dog/bitch would you still feel to endores your puppies.

Speechless here!!!!!! You think AGE is the only thing that matters?!

Astarte,
I really do not know! I just feel if a person has saved hard and beleve them, when they said they have done there homework on the breed, I feel that the amount they have paid The puppy is there's. Trust I supose. I have a tear every time my babies leave. My puppies are always of excellent temp. excellent genes, healthly to the best of anyones knowledge. I do worry about the bitches and I do put the new owners through hell. I have returned a dep. before now. We do not have many bitches in a litter, very rare.
People take it wrong when I say an endorement would mean a problem with the pup. Years ago approx. 25 I had a breeder kennel my dog while on holiday. She had a pup with a squint that was no good to sell, lovely little chappy 3months old well we ended up bringing him home, he was given no charge. Now that is were I felt she should have put an endorsement. As it happened I would not have breed of him, would never had concidered it, at the time had young children and foster babies.
It would be better I supose if all pups by the KC were and you just lifted them. I think!!!

Denese

LouiseDDB,
Yes! I am a decent and honest person, Yes, I have breed. If I trust people and I am so wrong! why do you think by endorsements these certain kind of people will not breed of them anyway?

Denese

Kayc
please do not make asumptions about me when you know nothink.
I have my opinion you have yours, please respect that.
There are a lot of breeders/judges that I have spoken to in length.
That gave me there opinion on endorsements, there long experience I took on board they were also breeders.

Denese

Denese I am not making assumtions... (without the p) (and there is no k at the end of nothing I am only taking from what you have already told us.. I have no need to assume

yes we both have our opinions.. but.. if I have to respect yours, then I request you also respect mine..

Endorsements in the real world is an excellent way of stopping your beloved pups being bred  from at a later date  without your permission,but if all the adverts I have seen over the last couple of years where the parents are KC registered but the pups are not are anything to go by then endorsements dont seem to make a lot of difference if someone wants to breed.
So the pups are sold for a couple of hundred pounds less or registered with another company but what the heck you can have extra litters if you like & the money saved on all those health tests & the like more than make up for getting less for the pups.
Would like to add that when I was breeding in the past all stock was health tested & endorsed but nowadays many purchasers seem to breed whatever you do.I think the only way to prevent it is not to sell anything at all or be like the American shelters that spay/neuter puppies prior to sale.