i had Tio out for the toilet today, double leaded on a halti and collar as usual (literal belt and braces :)) and some STUPID woman allows her jack russell off lead. they were behind us so i and Tio didn't see them and it attacked Tio!! He's ok, a bit of a sore face but i am raging! firstly for my boy but also on behalf of the other dog! it went for T's face and if he had so chosen Tio could easily have killed it with a snap.

I am actually very proud of Tio though, he spun to defend himself but all he did was really display- lots of puffing up and noise but he didn't even try to snap at it. i grabbed him and told him to sit and he did while the woman got her dog away. all she said was a quickly muttered sorry and shot off. why are some folk so irresponsible??

I can't believe all the woman did was say sorry & walk off, it would have been a different matter if the worst had happended, well done to Tio for acting as he did though.  Is he okay? Are you okay? Must have been a bit of a shock for you both :(

i know!

yeah i'm ok, threw my back a wee bit though when tio spun round to face it but its ok. i was pretty shaky at the time but now i'm just annoyed! i know t's got issues with other dogs and so i ensure he's restrained, how come other people can't do the same?

tio's ok as well, his nose seems a little tender where he was snaffled but he's not got any punctures i could see. i think he just got a fright with it pouncing from behind. he was getting big love from his daddy when i left for work so was pretty happy. he's also got a bone for today so i think he'll be fine :)

Well done Tio!! Hopefully this hasn't set him back.

Most of the times Dorain's been had it's been by small dogs - what annoys me most is when the owners find it amusing.... I know there are responsible owners with smaller dogs - but there do seem to be a significant number of people that think because they have a small dog they don't have to train it and they can let it do what it likes (like my next door neighbours ).

hopefully not... because we have a park right behind our flat there are a lot of dogs about and he has generally been great recently, i don't want that to change.

i totally agree, some wee dog owners are just totally irresponsible!

OH my!!!  Thats horrible.  Glad Tio is ok, and that you are as well.  People are so irresponsible, I hate it.  The amount of times my guys have been charged at by strange dogs, and then the couple times we have actually had full blown attacks, amazes me.  I am scared to walk the dogs anymore.  Hopefully this doesnt set Tio back.

(((hugs))) to you and your boy! 

thanks. at least during ours i was more worried for the other dog, i knew it was unlikely it could really hurt tio, for yours it must be terrifying! they are fiesty but delicate little things!

my pet dog hate is the owner who thinks because their dog is friendly all dogs should put up with their dogs sniffing around them. I had a dog years ago who had a form of epilepsy, and he was not safe around other dogs as I never knew when he was going to get a fit, as when he was going in to it he would often bite anything near him. I remember one day going out with him and although I told the labrador owner to please put her dog on the lead as my dog would be worried by a strange dog she refused saying "It's ok my dog is friendly" In the end I had to threaten to beat her dog up if it came near before she finally got the mesage and then launched into an attack on me for not letting my dog play with hers!

I teach at a small local obedience club for pet owners, and I do warn them that if they are out walking and see a new dog and owner they do not know to put their dog on a lead, just incase the other dog may not be good with other dogs or the other owner may be wary having been involved with an irresponsible pet owner who allows their "friendly" dog to run amok.

I sympathise with you and am amazed at your patience with the woman and her jack russell, I'd probably have said a few words and maybe suggested she gets herself along to a good dog training club!

> I sympathise with you and am amazed at your patience with the woman and her jack russell, I'd probably have said a few words and maybe suggested she gets herself along to a good dog training club!

lol more shock than patience! if she'd hung around for any more time she'd have gotten a severe tounge lashing!

freindly dog owners that do that are stupid, aggressive dog owners that do it are moronic! and clearly the jack in question is suicidal! it came up to Tios ankle! i think thats why he didn't retaliate, i think he was to stunned

> it came up to Tios ankle! i think thats why he didn't retaliate, i think he was to stunned

Probably didn't think it was worth the bother in this hot weather! Sorry shouldn't joke.

lol possibly. and frankly whats to be done but joke :) everyones fine, i just hope its owner realised how close she came to letting her dog get itself killed and thinks in future!

> if she'd hung around for any more time she'd have gotten a severe tounge lashing!
>

I'm afraid I did just that once when some selfish woman let her known to be aggressive Springer off-lead on our local recreation ground. (There are signs up on all the gates asking us to keep our dogs on leads - the fields are just 2 minutes away too) Anyway her dog came belting round the corner and hit my pup so hard that it actually knocked him down, then it bit his face. I tried kicking out at it and it ran off but came back 3 times for another go before she caught up with it. All she said to it was "that was very naughty wasn't it" I can't repeat what I said to her on a nice well-mannered board like this one!

When I got him home he had several bleeding bite wounds on his face and he was all green down his side where he'd hit the ground. Some people!!

Hope Tio's OK now, I know from this board that you try to do everything right so it really doesn't seem fair at all.

Glad Tio is ok, and hope he continues to do well :), It annoys me too...It is a constant battle with my girl.... NO she doesn't want to PLAY!!

:)

> "that was very naughty wasn't it"

hmm. naughty would not be my choice of words... i hope your pup was ok, what a horrible, vicious attack!

Tio's grand, but i hope it doesn't make things hard again. he's at the stage where he will tolerate another dog in the area around him while still feeling aggressive to it, i.e. he'll not like it and watch it but will not try and get to it, which is not optimal but it workable. i really hope that doesn't change.

> Glad Tio is ok, and hope he continues to do well :-), It annoys me too...It is a constant battle with my girl.... NO she doesn't want to PLAY!!
>

i know, whats so hard about keeping your dog on lead and asking before approaching? its not rocket science!

Also

My dogs are not unfriendly but they don't want to know other dogs, and neither do I.

I wish people would just keep their dogs away from me and mine!!

So sorry, poor Tio, lets hope no ill effects.
KAren :(

i had a similar incident with timo last week (hes our 7 month king charles puppy and very submissive),a wire fox terrier off the lead pounced on timo while timo was on his flexi lead and i couldnt pick him up for fear of the dog latching on.thankfully timo did his curl in a ball trick hoping the dog would go away.i shouted for the dog to go away and after a few minutes of stalemate the owner strolled up and i told her to get her dog away to which she replied she didnt want to as she was scared! i decided id rather the dog attack me so really shouted in the dogs face to go away and it momentarily did enough for me to scoop timo up.i then turned the air blue with anger and told her to get her f******  dog on a lead to which she hurled abuse back! it made me so angry! i had a similar experience with our 2 tib girls when a jack russell attacked them (luckily they were all coat so no harm except shook up)and when i shouted at the dog his owner said it was all right as he was just being assertive! its never their fault! i came in fuming and o/h said take rumble(15st dogue) out he'll show him assertive!i didnt but it does make you angry,i sympathise.roy

> o/h said take rumble(15st dogue) out he'll show him assertive!

this is the one blessing... i hope to goodness that the owner got such a fright at their dog going for Tio that they learn for the future- Tios really very oversized for a bullmastiff and even though i keep him very trim (light amount of rib) because of leg problems he weighs in around 12.5 stone. He's a big big boy and i genuinely hope it knocked some sense into her.

How dare she put her dogs health, my dogs health (unlikely it would have hurt him but it could have), his mental well being and mine in jeopardy! if i see her again with it off lead i will be giving her a piece of my mind.

trouble is they often dont learn until another dog does lose it and do some damage.we have a very agressive jrt on our street,he goes for every dog off the lead and comes up to our front door to bark at our dogs,hes the bane of most dog walkers but the guy seems immune to people complaining now and just shrugs it off.however a new dog has moved into the street a chocolate staff x(poss pit) and im just waiting for the day those two meet! like you iwas more worried for timo's mental health as he loves other dogs but i was afraid this would set him back,however hes fine,typical timo thinks the worlds all sweetness and light!

IT DID IT AGAIN!!

Liam had T out for the toilet and the little rat tried to attack him again! Liam said it was trying to go for T but liam stood in the way.

i've told him to call the dog warden, we don't know where they live but i want it reported so they have it on record and if i see the woman again i will follow her to get her address to make an official complaint.

i've asked liam to start taking Tio out muzzled, even though its far from his fault, but in his case defending himself would result in the jack being killed and i just know as an owner of a bull breed the blame would somehow fall on us.

i am absolutely incensed.

can someone say soothing things to me please? if i keep being this angry i will give myself a migraine.

though talk of the stig has chilled me a little...

Gosh Astarte, sounds like you need a glass of wine and Tio needs a nice treat for being such a good boy under trying circumstances.  The little dog obviously get's it's rudness from it's owner.  I would def have a word with the dog warden as the situation is so unfair,  It's really hard to believe how stupid people are but they just are!

My MIL has a big lab cross that once got attacked by a jack russell, he just grabbed it by the scruff and hurled it over his shoulder...........problem solved :-D

alas at work so no wine available! Tio's dad is dedicating an evening of snuggling to the poor boy.

i was so impressed with him the first time it happend, he made all the noises but no kind of active defence (no biting, pinning, slamming etc), just bristled and then sat for me. apparently he was less cool tonight, though since its now attacked him twice i can understand his pov. i just am so mad that someone is so selfish and thoughtless not just to me but to their dog as well!

> can someone say soothing things to me please?

Poor you! Try not to get too stressed, you have done nothing wrong and your Tio is behaving well in the face of severe provocation.  You can be proud of him. Sometimes it seems as if we are surrounded by idiots, hard to take at times I know.  Did Liam say anything to the other owner?

When we had a similar incident I gave the aggressive dog's owner such a mouthful that she was lost for words (after saying "that was very naughty wasn't it" to her monster.)  Next time I met that dog (off lead again) its owner said - while trying to catch up with it to grab it, "it's OK, he's very nearly given it up now cos we've had him done!" As I had my older male with me that day their dog thought the better of it and left him alone. 

It is hard with bull breeds, people can make all kinds of assumptions but I don't think I would rush into muzzling Tio - he's done nothing wrong and you don't want to make it look like he is at fault in any way. Keep up with your training, I know you do a lot with your dog and it is really worth it.

Chin up! There are plenty of inadequate people around but we just have to rise above it and not let them get to us ;-)

I know someone who had a similar problem with a terrier - their dog was actually a cross of two gundog breeds, which was walked on a short lead, good natured and calm, and regularly got attacked by a neighbour's loose terrier.... (next to the road).... one day he was being walked next to the kid's pushchair when the terrier went for him and he had a go back - shook him - and terrier wasn't killed but was injured and was I think PTS - but the big dog, that was under control, got the blame (more of a 'neighbour' problem than legal).... so muzzle is a wise move... and definitely dog warden... they may well have other reports. Actually I would be inclined to do a spot of detective work if it's about at the same time each day, and follow it.... or catch it as it should have a tag with address (if not you could take it to the dog warden as a stray, which means the owner will have to pay to get it back....).

I had similar JRT problems when Dorain was young - dog was under no control at all, always loose, and roamed the whole area... Dorain was only about 15 months old when he first encountered it - owner was nearby and decided to stroke Dorain - so JRT came and grabbed his t*sticles!! Dorain couldn't get away cos he was on lead (near a road) - fortunately I think it was more a warning cos it didn't do any damage - but Dorain wouldn't walk that way for ages - and where I lived there were only 2 ways to get out (was the way the roads/ paths worked) and that footpath was the easiest... and if he was out in the garden and the JRT was patrolling nearby I would know cos Dorain would get hysterical and I'd have to go out to him. JRT went at him a few times.... until I developed my successful menacing body language which kept it away. :-) And then we moved house.... hurrah!! But he's not keen on small dogs....

So you have my sympathy - but chill, have a glass of wine....if you're wound up it'll wind Tio up, and there's no point in you being wound up cos someone else is irresponsible. ;-) Just work out where it lives and get the dog warden involved. :-)

> Tio is behaving well in the face of severe provocation.  You can be proud of him.

this is true and i am :)

> Did Liam say anything to the other owner?

he didn't even see them, no apology or anything :(

thanks for the nice thoughts :)

> i just am so mad that someone is so selfish and thoughtless not just to me but to their dog as well!

It is very madening
While out with Buster, on several occasions, we've met 2 JRT's (loose, no owner in sight), they have pestered us terribly, one circling round behind, while the other does little charges, while growling & snapping, but they have not made actual pysical contact with Buster other than trying to jump on his back when he was sat down (they did physically attack my OH ankles, when he tried to shoo them away ).
It is infuritating that people allow thier dogs to do this, because it causes an utter nusiance to other dog owners (turns me into a nervous wreck at the thought of what if Buster defends himslef) and it puts thier dogs safety on the line.

I can completey sympathise with you. I never reported the loose JRT's we've encountered, I have no idea who owns them or what street they're from. The last time I met them, I got fed up of standing there keeping them at bay (they follow Buster, if I move him away ), so I charged at them shouting & stamping, untill they had left the field (with Buster walking on a slcak lead, like he didn't have a care in the world :) ), passers by looked at me like I was some sort of looney, but hey - I need to protect my 'little' doggy!! and I have not seen them since.

The suggestion of reporting the dog you've encoutered does seem like the most sensible thing to do, and should Tio ever have to defend himself, it's on record that he has been attacked by this dog before.

GRRRRRR, I'm raging on your behalf!

> the big dog, that was under control, got the blame

ridiculous :(

its why i think a mussle is a good idea though. he cannot do any damage then, even though it would be justified. i figure its such a little thing that myself or liam could get it off the t-pot without him having to defend himself.

> and definitely dog warden... they may well have other reports

exactly why i am doing it. the grass area for our building has a kids playground in it and loads of dogs get walked/toileted there- if this thing goes for a dog when there are kiddies around i dred to think :( theres a lovely little bedlington in particular that i worry for- as terriers i'm sure beddies have 'got game' but she looks so delicate and always comes with her owner and her owners little boys who clearly adore her.

> Actually I would be inclined to do a spot of detective work if it's about at the same time each day

not the same times at all :( or we'd arrange different toilet times. the attack with me was at 8.30 am and liam took him out about 6 tonight.

OMG!!! poor dorian!! what a horrid thing to happen to him, bless him the poor boy!

what manner of menacing body language? i am tempted if i see it again to roar at it and do BIG body language but i'm worried it would encourage Tio.

i'm not home to wind him up so thats good, just spoke to liam and apparently tio is fine, they are chilling out together. i want to get home and give him a cuddle, poor boy.

after the last time he's still been really good- when he see's other dogs he's very interested but will not try anything, just watches. i hope he is this time to :(

i can see myself spying out the window for a while...

> GRRRRRR, I'm raging on your behalf!
>

thank you :)

its the absolute terror of big dog owners, that people will be given cause to think their dog is dangerous. the worst thing is i know tio does have problems, but i do my very best, very effectively, to make sure he's not a danger to anyone or anything and yet others just flaunt that effort and disregard safety and care in favour of laziness.

> The suggestion of reporting the dog you've encoutered does seem like the most sensible thing to do, and should Tio ever have to defend himself, it's on record that he has been attacked by this dog before

this is what i'm thinking.

> what manner of menacing body language?

It's not something I would necessarily suggest doing - depends on the dog and situation - what I did was crossed the road/ moved to avoid it if it was coming directly towards us, but also did a shoulders back confident more or less square on to it as we moved, IYSWIM, then face it as it looked over, and glared at it - didn't stare into eyes exactly, just long enough look to try and say - have stayed out of your way - now you stay out of ours... then kept watch out of corner of my eye... any sign it was thinking of coming towards us, same look and shoulders back facing it again  - and it would just trot past.... kind of hard to explain on an internet forum - confident, taking no nonsense body language. But you do have to be careful with unknown dogs re: how you deal with them, in case you actually get hurt, obviously, so it's not exactly something I would advocate over the internet - just what worked for us with that dog at the time. And Dorain, being a GSP, isn't a protective breed like a mastiff that might be inclined to think of joining in.

> isn't a protective breed like a mastiff that might be inclined to think of joining in.

there in lies the rub. tio's very protective of me, despite being a nervous thing, since my surgery. i'm pretty well again now but his behaviour took a real dive after the op and we're still building it back up again mainly by simply giving out a general air of confidence.

lol, what your describing sounds much like tios reaction to other dogs now, standing taut so show his size and looking very focusedly at them while not actually being threatening- very don't mess rather than being aggressive. i cannot try and warn off this dog by being calm and confident as the time with me it attacked out of nowhere from behind.

> its the absolute terror of big dog owners,

I can fully sympathise with you here, its a horrible feeling.
If it makes you feel like your not alone, ive had a lot of bother with a local guy and his cross, lab size, poss some rottie in there, twice its attacked my boy whilst hes been on lead and its been off. the guy carries a golf club which he swings at the dog to get it away (must stress hes never actually hit his dog in front of me, but does swing at it! ) first time it happened the dog stopped in front of my boy and lunged, but i managed to keep my boy away, guy came up, got his dog away and didnt say a thing, no apology or anything. 2 months later, meet them again, 7am in morning, my boy on lead, the dog spots us, charges over and gets hold of my boy by throat. i started screaming and kicking it, my poor pup was squealing and trying to get away, despite being larger and heavier than the attacking dog. guy strolls up, starts swinging golf club, gets dog away after a minute or so, then turns to me and shouts and swears at me for getting involved!! i was raging, no apology or anything. i then tried to say that his dog was out of control, my dog was on lead etc, and he told me to **** off.
I went home and straight to police station, the police were lovely, spoke to the guy the following day and reminded him of the dangerous dog act. had to phone them again as the next time he saw me he started shouting in the street and telling me to get out of the village we stay in! so he recieved a warning for breach of peace and intimidation. not had a problem with him since, we avoid each other which is exactly what i wanted.
police have been great, and im glad its on record so if the dog ever does anyting again, or the guy, its all recorded.

>>but the big dog, that was under control, got the blame

I was talking to a lady at the beastie's training class on saturday, I think she was grateful that she wasn't the only person with a problem dog! Anyway, she was saying that a very similar thing happened to her. They own 2 GSD's both rescues, the bitch is fine with people, but isn't good with other dogs, so she is always on lead. They were walking one day and a came across a lady with 5 small dogs all off lead which ran up en mass to the GSD's, her bitch grabbed one (think she said it was a yorkie) and shook it.

THis lady was mortified, and paid all vets bills totalling around £1,000, (the yorkie has since made a full recovery). The police, the dog warden and the vet all told her not to pay, as she was in control of her dog at the time, and the lady with the 5 off lead dogs got a telling off! She did pay as she felt awful that her dog had done this, her pet insurance refused to pay up under the 3rd party liability as her dog was on a lead, and therefore deemed to be under control and not liable.

Generally though I have to agree that it's the big dogs that get the blame. When I used to own Bullmastiffs, my boy just had an air about him that made dogs want to have a go, the number of times I've had the "oh he only wants to play" conversation, I even had one Cocker owner say, "oh it's OK he'll just get stuck in his throat!". There were many occassions where we had to leave the park to prevent any issues arising.

Sympathise with you all, my 1st shepherd DID NOT LIKE little terrier types since he was 13 weeks and a norfolk (6mth) backed him under a chair in a corner of one of these 'let them all play' puppy groups, - I didn't know any better then but I wouldn't let it happen now.
Had him on walk, put him back on lead, put him in down, OH fending terrier off with foot and owners said 'he likes alsatians he plays with my friends'. I thought you stupid ***s. and said mine HATES borders and does NOT want to play so get yours under control before he is bitten and it won't be my dogs fault as yours is the one thats loose...............'Oh' and off they went.
we did get it under control and few years later had the Cocker owner say, "oh it's OK he'll just get stuck in his throat!". nonsense, I had told Zig very firmly 'leave it' and was chuffed when he just walked past it with his nose in the air - can't even see it- look.
Chris

Well I had a similar incident yesterday - except that the other dog was also on a short lead and with an adult man holding onto it!! Walking along the pavement, turned a corner, and man with terrier (think it was meant to be a Scottie but not sure as it was completely clipped off and a bit strange looking and I couldn't tell) was about 3ft away opposite us, with his dog oppsite Dorain. So I stopped, and waited for him to pass. It was like one of those sort of moments when you can't speak because you are too astonished - rather like someone driving in the opposite direction along the road suddenly swerving onto your side of the road and driving into you head on. Within a spli second man said to his dog "Say hello then" and walked him STRAIGHT up to Dorain's face!! Dorain was brilliant - this terrier immediately leapt and snarled and lunged at Dorain's face - Dorain got a little hackly and gave a slight growl - then man came out with "He'll have you for breakfast." to his dog as I marched Dorain off - one of the lines that drives me BERSERK from small dog owners.... Dorain was a star actually, considering - he was ace - I was livid and upset and trying to stay calm for Dorain's sake so he didn't pick up on it.... What a PRATT!!

indeed, total pratt!

i had a collie cross come carrering up to tio today- he didn't get aggressive so i assume it was a bitch (hard to tell) but since it was all about his rear end he was a little freaked. the owner comes strolling round the corner a bit later at which point she starts glowering at me!

seriously, what is going on in the world??