i am realy annoyed i have just found out that the kennel club will register a litter of puppies from a bitch if its the second litter of a year for an extra £50 well i think its discusting as far is i am concerned it takes a dog  a year to get back to normal after a litter and the kennel club have been exposed for breeding dodgy dogs well this has got me even more mad how they can pretend to abide by the rule then go and totaly do something like this there is no wonder people dont trust them well im  not trusting them any more

The KC don't care they receive more money.

Peanuts

where did you get this information?

>pretend to abide by the rule then go and totaly do something like this

What rule?

>i have just found out that the kennel club will register a litter of puppies from a bitch if its the second litter of a year for an extra £50

I don't know where you get the 'extra £50' from; it's onlt licenced (ie commercial) breeders who are limited to 1 litter from a bitch in any 12-month period. The rule doesn't apply to ordinary 'hobby' breeders - but they don't have to pay extra, just the ordinary registration fee.

>the kennel club have been exposed for breeding dodgy dogs

The Kennel Club don't breed any dogs at all, let alone dodgy ones.

I think you've been misinformed.

You've clearly been misinformed.  Licensed (commercial in most cases) breeders can only register one litter per bitch per year, others can register more but in reality that usually only means that one litter may arrive 364 days or so after the first!

> i am realy annoyed i have just found out that the kennel club will register a litter of puppies from a bitch if its the second litter of a year for an extra £50

Really ? The KC did ban "back to back"litters being registered by any breeder, but under the restriction of trade laws, they could not impose te ban on breeders who do not require a breeders license from the Local Authority under "The Breeding & Sale of Dogs Act 1999

2 Licence conditions

(1) In subsection (4) of section 1 of the 1973 Act (matters to which a local authority shall have regard in determining whether to grant a licence and about which conditions must be included in the licence), in paragraph (b) (dogs to be visited at suitable intervals, so far as necessary), omit "(so far as necessary)".

(2) In that subsection, after paragraph (e) insert--

"(f) that bitches are not mated if they are less than one year old;

(g) that bitches do not give birth to more than six litters of puppies each;

(h) that bitches do not give birth to puppies before the end of the period of twelve months beginning with the day on which they last gave birth to puppies; and

(i) that accurate records in a form prescribed by regulations are kept at the premises and made available for inspection there by any officer of the local authority, or any veterinary surgeon or veterinary practitioner, authorised by the local authority to inspect the premises;",

However this law only applies to breeders, who

7 Definition of establishments

Before section 5 of the 1973 Act insert--
"4A Breeding establishments for dogs

(1) References in this Act to the keeping of a breeding establishment for dogs shall be construed in accordance with this section.

(2) A person keeps a breeding establishment for dogs at any premises if he carries on at those premises a business of breeding dogs for sale (whether by him or any other person).

(3) Subject to subsection (5) of this section, where--

(a) a person keeps a bitch at any premises at any time during any period of twelve months; and

(b) the bitch gives birth to a litter of puppies at any time during that period,

he shall be treated as carrying on a business of breeding dogs for sale at the premises throughout the period if a total of four or more other litters is born during the period to bitches falling within subsection (4) of this section.

The KC has to abide by the Laws passed by Parliament as breeders do not have to be members to register litters with them, only if the KC change their rules to include all breeders having to be some form of KC member in order to register litters, could the KC enforce the non registration of back to back litters.

Where on the KC site or in the KC Rules & Regs is there details of this £50 to register a back to back litter ???

I thought back to back litters were allowed and I know some people who do them if the bitch is 1) healthy, 2) back in shape and has been for some times, 3) small previous litter, 4) they are experianced, 5) sometimes it needs to be done so it's before the 8th birthday!

I've known bitches get bcak in shape 10 weeks after mating (small energetic breed) You would never have guessed she had a litter!

The only way in my breed we cannot breed a bitch twice in a 12 month period is our breed clubs code of ethics, but we don't have to be a breed club member to breed either!

>I've known bitches get bcak in shape 10 weeks after mating (small energetic breed) You would never have guessed she had a litter!

My dalmatian bitch took best of breed at a show 12 weeks after whelping - nobody believed she'd had a litter! It was a small litter of only 4 puppies, so it had been quite easy for her. Even her undercarriage was smooth and flat again - and all this without having to take her away from her puppies at all.

In that case JG I take it back tht it seems like only small breeds (Maybe just energetic ones) and of course those in good shape who get the right diet and exercise....

Not as good as 12 weeks, but my Rio (Malinois) had TEN pups and was in a terrible state, she lost so much weight I was seriously worried about her, never seen anything as bad apart from in RSPCA adverts. 17 weeks after the pups were born she took RBB at a champ.show.

I was told by a Bulldog and Lhaso (sorry if i spelt it wrong )breeder, that they do litter and litter , then rest their bitch for a year ... i was a bit shocked and told her i thought any breeder worth their salts  did not breed their bitches back to back , to which she told me ... how many breeders do you know ???All while she had an envolope with Kc on the top under her arm .... I kind of came away feeling ashamed to have even questioned her about her ethic's , but down hearted in way ....(her dogs are cared for and shown  and she is not a farmer or BYB )

I would think that litters on successive seasons would be considered by ethical breeders in exceptional circumstances only, and as a one off not usual practise.

Also with so many Bulldogs requiring c-sections, it would seem extremely odd to have back to back litters.

> Also with so many Bulldogs requiring c-sections, it would seem extremely odd to have back to back litters.

totally agree, i disagree with back to back matings full stop JMO, but back to back in a bulldog is surely got to be wrong

My large breed girl had 11 puppies at the beginning of the year, she is in superb shape and back in season, i want another puppy from her, but she will be having 18 months break before i repeat that.

I just love all the factual infomation posted on this site at times :-D   Sorry just couldn't help it. I have went on three threads in the last 24 hours with the same sort of incorrect statement.

Not sure of your source but it is incorrect.

My large breed girl had 11 puppies at the beginning of the year, she is in superb shape and back in season, i want another puppy from her, but she will be having 18 months break before i repeat that.

I would think so to BUT to say i disagree with back to back matings full stop is closed minded also. Very very good exceptional breeders on the very " odd" occasion feel they have to do this for one reason or another,  they may only have 1 or 2 puppies, or the puppies may not have survived.  There area number of acceptable reasons

It is not something I would encourage but I would not make a general assumptions about anything unless I knew the reasons behind the decision on anything. I think big litter breeds would rarely be acceptable to me but a lot of breeds have so few pups.

A litter of 11 is 3 litters in my breed. :-)

While it wasn't a back to back mating, I have personally registered a litter from the same bitch twice in 12 months.

I have a breed known for whelping problems, and it is my aim to end up with a totally self whelping line.  I only keep dogs out of bitches that have self whelped.

My best bitch had two puppies in January 2008.  She came into season 4 months later, no problems.  When I took her for her booster jabs, I asked for my vets opinion on mating her again, he said that he didn't have a problem with it, as her litter was so small, and she was in such good condition.

So I mated her at the next season.  She whelped in December 2008, and the litter was registered.  I don't consider that makes me a bad breeder.  This was her 3rd litter, she had 2 pups each time, and she will be spayed and kept as a much loved pet.  It's the first time I've ever let a bitch have 3 litters, but I certainly wouldn't say that she has been overbred.

Indeed, my aim for a self whelping line is going along slowly but surely, as the bitch from this bitches first litter, has just self whelped, so I do feel that I am making some advancement on my ambition.

Well done Jean. People do not realise just how important what you are trying to do is for the breed.

That is so very admirable Jean! :-)  Breeding on every season is without doubt cruel and senseless, but in your instance, where it is an occasional thing and well thought out, where the dog has coped very well and is experienced, plus has an awful lot to give to the breed as a whole, I would not see much of a problem with it - and I don't think many folk would mind once they see the facts laid before them.  I think the first thing most folk think when they hear of back to back mating is Eek, Puppy Farmer!

> A litter of 11 is 3 litters in my breed

So true Pam. About 4 litters for me :-)

A less blinkered attitude when expressing an opinion would be advisable. If we produced 11 puppies we would probably not need to mate the bitch again..would we?

I've been breeding dogs for many many years and in my experienced opinion if it is better for my bitches, in exceptional circumstances,to mate on two successive seasons then that is what I'll do.
My judgement call in the one and only time I've actually done this was to avoid my girl being mated too old to get a bitch from her. A succession of misses and a litter of 2 dogs lead me to this considered decision.
The bitch in question won a Reserve CC in full show coat when these pups were quite young - the same bitch who's MRI scan was so good for her age the examining vets said when reviewing the results " I would start getting puppies from this bitch ASAP if I were you" his words not mine.

The bigger picture...full stop.

A less blinkered attitude when expressing an opinion would be advisable. If we produced 11 puppies we would probably not need to mate the bitch again..would we?

Exactly :-D    Occasionally the blinkered opinions make me shake my head.

> People do not realise just how important what you are trying to do is for the breed.

I admire anyone trying to improve their breed, (thats the whole point) jeans bitch whelped jan and then dec, so a few weeks short of a year, i dont see any problem with that at all.

As i stated in my post it is my opinion

11 puppies doesnt mean i wouldnt need to breed again as i kept a puppy (as always) and i would like a different combination next time.

What exceptional breeders choose to do for various reasons is entirely up to them, i personally would not do a back to back mating and i have had a litter of 2 (very tiny litter in my breed) but still chose to wait 18 months, i personally feel it is fairer on the bitch, but again this is just my own opinion, albeit blinkered...feel free to shake your head :)

11 puppies doesnt mean i wouldnt need to breed again as i kept a puppy (as always) and i would like a different combination next time.

I think the point of the not needing to breed if you got 11 puppies is that you should ( if the litter was of course out of suitable parents) be guaranteed something good enough to show. Were as small litters of 2s and 3s not forgetting balance of sex in the litter so means the odds are stacked far greater against you of getting the "one"    .

> Breeding on every season is without doubt cruel and senseless, but in your instance, where it is an occasional thing

But in this case the bitch was not mated on successive seasons, having a season in between the two she was mated.  She just happened to have short inter season intervals so that her two litters were born 11 months apart.

I believe it would be equally acceptable to mate a bitch on her next season where they were 10 or more months apart as is common in some breeds, especially if litters were not large..

> Breeding on every season is without doubt cruel and senseless, but in your instance, where it is an occasional thing and well thought out,

granitecitygirl - just to say that perhaps my post was misleading - this was not on a consecutive season.   She had a season 4 months after whelping, this was not the season on which I had her mated.  It was the one after that, albeit earlier than expected, but only after a vet check assured me it was ok for the bitch which is my first criteria.

> Were as small litters of 2s and 3s not forgetting balance of sex in the litter so means the odds are stacked far greater against you of getting the "one"    .

This opinion exactly describes the uphill struggle to achieve my ambition - but put more clearly than I could word it.  One litter of two boys scuppered me, and, naturally, I have kept all girls from this bitch.  But when you say "all" girls, we are talking very small numbers.

I just have my fingers crossed from the all boy litter, as one has gone to a show home, and I would sooooo love him to do well.  They wanted him as part of their breeding programme, and I would love for it to be a total success.

Once my girls are spayed they stay with me, so I can't keep everything!

My apologies folks :-)  I definitely got the wrong end of the wick, my bad. 

Spoke to this breeder again , and she told me if the bitch is healthy and bounces back they do it back to back all the time , she also carried on to say she sells her older stock on ... maybe she may not be what i thought she was as a breeder .. but who knows ....She shows and breeds so i thought she was okay ....

hi i saw it on the net whilst looking into buying a dog it was someone advertising it i know the kc doesnt breed dogs or dodgy ones i meant if the kc want people to breed dogs by the rule how come some people are still managing to register back to back litters for £50 the advertisement was not from the kc it was from someone seeming to be able in some way get kc reg papers from the kc for as many litters from a dog as they can sorry i confused everyone and the dodgy dog thing well breeders only breed form the standard set by the kc so if dogs are supposed  to have for instance squashed faces or small legs of certain measurements then the breeders are going to try and get it right so its not the breeders at fault its the people that set the standards in the first place i just think showing for perfections sometimes can go to far

:), so true