Hi there, new to this board so please be gentle.

We had a litter of pups, 6 in total, Tuesday afternoon but one of the pups is very small, less than half the weight of the average of the rest of the litter. Very delicate looking but seems to be well formed etc., lovely glossy coat. The trouble is, she will not try to suckle from mum, also we had a hard time keeping her warm. We did not really expect her to last the night but as she did, we popped her down to the vers the next morning, who gave her a once over and said there was no cleft palate. We left with Whelpi and Catac kit, to supplement. Mum keeps her clean and warm (now) but the pup still will not suckle from her. We have tried taking all the rest of the pups away, which only upset mum, moving them to the side a bit, squeezing milk out but pup is just not interested.

We are happy to go on feeding her a small amount of Whelpi every couple of hours but milk keeps coming out of her nostrils, not a lot but it is still there. If it is not a cleft palate, then can someone tell me whether this is ok. Also, I read about supplements that some of you give to small pups, can someone tell me what they do for the pup and how much to give. The strange thing is, that through all of this, the little pup is still quite lively.

If she had passed away the first night, we would have understood, but as she seems to be a fighter and is nearly 2 days old now, we can't bear the thought of loosing her, so please can someone help us.

This probably will not be much help, but I shall say it anyway. i had one like that in my last litter....even tried to keep her going myself for a few days but she died after 3 days....there are some pups that are just not viable & the bitch usually senses this, hence she is not keen on it. Sometimes there is only one sensible kind thing to do,

Don't like to be negative but Sam is probably right. The only thing thing that might make a difference is temperature. If a pup is at all chilled it can't feed, and a tiny one becomes chilled more easily. You say that mum is now keeping the pup warm, but it still may not be warm enough. Do you know what the temperature is in your whelping room? Turn up the heating until the room is uncomfortably warm for you and keep the room moist by draping a wet towel over a radiator. If you have a heating pad or heating lamp, put the small pup on the pad or under the lamp. Failing that you could try putting the next your own skin under your clothes for a while. Another possibility is that the pup is just too small to latch on to mum's teat. If so you will probably have to continue hand feeding for a bit, but you could try plugging the weak puppy directly on to the smallest teat. Did your vet show you how to 'milk' mum and can you can express some of mum's milk and feed it to the pup from the catac?

Thanks for your quick replies Sam and Sharon.

I must make it clear that mum is "not" pushing pup away at all and it feels warm enough now. Even though it is the smallest, it pushes its way in amongst litter mates and mum until it cannot be seen at all. Room is very warm, in fact too warm for panting mum, and a wrapped (teddy bear) hot water bottle is also present to look after the pup.

Puppy is now 48 hours old and we are still holding our breath but still cannot get it to open its mouth to latch onto mother. Teat on bottle is firm enough to open pups mouth and it does suck a bit, but as I said before somethimes milk comes back out of its nose....is this usual?

One other thing, when I mention mum being hot, she has been to the vets and temp pronounced normal although she is a bit stressed out and she has had the usual jabs for clearing out and anti-biotics just in case.

Hi, milk coming back up though the pup's nose isn't normal and that's why I wondered if it could be a bit chilled. As the pup has made it to 48 hours, is lively, mum isn't rejecting it now and it is making an attempt to suck, if only on the teat, perhaps it might be worth tube feeding it for a few days?

Whenever any of my girls, the human ones!, have had too much milk to quickly they always bring it back up out of their mouths and noses.

Could it be that the pup is taking too much too quickly?

Fiona
x x x

Must agree with you Sharon, after my experience of hand rearing this is what I would reccommend:
1. Tube feed - ask your vet to show you how to do this, you will with practice get to know when the belly is full. Also if the pup has not had enough it will still be wriggling for more, when has had enough should settle for a couple of hours. When milk comes down the nose there is a danger the puppy will inhale some. This can lead to pneumonia which is very serious in a young pup.
2. As the pup has received none of its moms milk it will have no anti-bodies. This will mean the pup would not be able to fight off any infections, which could result in Fading Puppy Syndrome. In your shoes I would ask my vet for a plasma transfusion on this pup using plasma from a healthy dog - preferably the mom or dad. That way you can be sure the little on has at lease got some anti-bodies.
3. With anti-bodies and no risk of pneumonia from inhaled milk you are giving the puppy the best possible chance. Keep her nice and warm and then the rest is down to fate.

If you need any more advice on anything I have just said email me on Branspatch7@aol.com and I will chat with you.
I really hope the little one makes it.

As the pup is bringing milk back down its nose, has it been checked for a cleft palette?

check the inside of mouth with your fingers, fading pups have cold mouths, if this is not the case, feed by hand, for now, I have had an 8oz puppy survive.

It has Phil.

Mistygirl, Fiona has a point - the hole in the teat could be too big. Ideally the puppy should have to 'work' for the milk. The way you hold the puppy to hand feed is important. You should hold it around the body behind the front legs in one hand, with the legs hanging down to 'paddle'. Then support the pup's chin with the heel of other hand which holds the bottle. But your pup sounds as if it isn't suckling strongly enough to 'work' for it's feed and Staffie is right about the risk of aspiration pneumonia and infection because the pup didn't get any colostrum from mum, so if it was my pup, I'd do what she suggests.

Could this puppy have Mega Oesophagus, milk coming back down her nose is a symptom. What breed are we talking here?

Nursey, as far as I know congential megaoesophagus doesn't usually show up until weaning.

you often get in my breed whats called an inneficient feeder. they cant grab the nipple so sometimes give up trying, -they make a clacking noise if they try to suck-these pups i bottle feed until weaned. -theyre always small ,but i find that if the teat you use flows too easy the milk will come down the nostrils,---there again if its too much effort they give up, i find its a case of little and often,-i top up with nutri drops too,
the alternate ways of feeding them are by a dropper or tube feeding-ive had 3 of these -i in 3 different litters, they all went on to make perfectly normal sized adults, [[[[[very hard work though]]]]]-and like you i used to keep checking to make sure i hadnt really misse a cleft pallate , just make sure its kept warm, i keep mine with the rest of the litter but lift it out to feed it, :D, good luck and i hope thats all is wrong with it,

A good supplement for weakling puppies is NUTRIDROPS made by COLLATE it seems to give them a boost and strengthens the small unviable pup until it is able to suckle.They also supply CLOS-TRUM as well as feeding the pup it helps to increase the appetite.Tel.01474 813999 website www.net-tex.co.uk
I have used both these products and can recommend
their use.
Best wishes
Carole

Hello again all,

Thanks to all of those that have suggested that the flow of milk was too fast, even though I didn't at the time think it was....Well 3 teats later we have got a hole small enough but large enough for the pup to work at and she has now had a feed that made me feel more hopeful....no milk coming out of the nostrils this time and she kept sucking for quite a while before wriggling to get away.

Those Nutridrops and Collate sound good and I am waiting for the morning to find out how soon I can get them. Once again, thanks for all your suggestions

are you in the uk-if so do a google search for canine chemists, thats who i get my drops from-they have a website also a contact phone number-i always get my stuff the next day ,-so if you find the number ready and get on there as soon as they open you should have them for saturday,!!!!

That's great! Please keep us updated about how the wee one gets along :-).

keep going , allthough not the same my mum hand reared one of her cats kittens.She was less than half the size of the other and looked very hunched.She too as checked for cleft pallet etc and wouldnt show any interest.She was eventually hand reared completly ( mum had to stay up all night with kitten in her bra keeping warm!....so unless ur pamella anderson im guessing the bra things out of the question with the pup!).But two years later my mum still has little "tiny" who still is VERY tiny..but suprisingly bulshy!

I am so sorry to here about the little one, it brought back bad memories for me when I had 3 like that and I lost them at 4 days old after staying awake feeding them all the time and trying to pull them through, the milk was coming out of the nose just like yours, it sounds like the baby will die, they loose all the weight that they have and can not survive.

good luck with them and I hope they do all pull through, and dont blame yourself if one dies, I cryied for days because I thought I did something wrong.

DEBBIE xx

If the mother has plenty of colostrum (or it might be milk by now) will she let you milk some off her which you can then feed to the puppy. Even though substitute milks are good there is still no match for its own mothers milk. Also the pup wont smell any different from the others.
Ted

As someone who has experienced cleft palate.
I had a litter of 7 pups and checked then for cleft palate when they was born BUT after 10 days of bottle feeding 2 puppies that simply didnt latch on I decided to check again, and they both had cleft palates!! :(
I dont know how i missed them the first time.
I got a small torch and shone it in their mouths and found one small hole in a dog puppy and a larger hole in a bitch puppy.
Check again and get someone to help you if possible just to reasure yourself

Mistygirl, how is the puppy now? :-)

i wish she'd get in touch-im hoping for the best!

I am sorry friends, that it has been so long since I last posted, I was too upset to turn the pc on yesterday. I am afraid that on Friday afternoon the puppy started to go downhill and eventually died in my hands on Saturday morning. By this time she had given up all attempts at feeding.

We thought that she was going to make it, she had several "good" feeds on the bottle and Friday morning we thought that she had cracked it when she had a 10 min suckle on mum. She then had an appt with vet who wanted another look at her and he decided that he thought she was going to make it

Thanks everyone for your thoughts, advice and help

im so sorry to hear about the puppy-but you tried your best and there must of been something wrong-best it happened now as rear it then be a poorly dog the rest of its life-its sad but its a part of breeding that we all have to deal with at one time or another-you'll have more time now to enjoy the rest of the litter,

Sorry to hear about the pup but at least you did all you could,
Anne

Sorry to hear about the puppy.
It is so hearbreaking to lose one so small.
I will be thinking of you at this sad time.

Nina

Sorry to here about the pup, it is now time to concentrate on the mum and other pups, it is hard after you have lost a little one, but you will feel better in a few days time when you see the other ones geting stronger and stronger. good luck

DEBBIE

Hi there,

Sorry abotu your puppy but agree with what Debbie says, fingers crossed all up hill from here.

Pam

I'm so sorry to hear what happened, it must be so upsetting and disappointing when she'd seemed to be picking up. Please accept my sincere condolences.
Cathy.

Sorry you lost her after trying so hard Misty. Try not to let it spoil your enjoyment of watching the other pups develop.

Sorry to hear about the pup, atleast you tried and did what u could. It is a lot better to lose little one now then when the pup is older it would of been alot harder. Enjoy the other ones now since they do grow up so fast. Sure the mom is missing time with u also. Sorry again.

so very sorry to here about the little pup, the breeder of my bitch has just lost one in the same way, you did your best and what is meant to be is meant to be although very upsetting at the time, regards tina