>this time  the media in the shape of the Guardian did us all a favour

I thought it was the Telegraph that was running the story? But you're right - it may be media-led but it's most definitely in the public interest - which is why the police refused to get involved in investigating the leak.

The thing is, the expenses system was brough in by the Conservatives in, I think 1985.  Correct me if I'm wrong here and the Labour government is taking most of the flak simply because they have handled it badly.  Still it's about time the Torys had their time back in power.  What we need is proportional representation then everyone would get their share. 

> What we need is proportional representation then everyone would get their share. 

I don't know how I feel about proportional representation.  The European Elections are (I think) run under this system and we can see the effects of that in today's results.  The BNP elected to two European Parliament seats, despite getting only 10% of the vote in the two regions they won in, which really amounts to a mandate from less than 5% of the regional population since less than 50% of eligible voters actually voted.  In fact, they actually got less votes than they did in 2004, but nonetheless gained seats for the first time thanks to voter apathy.
But then the "first past the post" system effectively disenfranchises people like myself who live in a constituency or ward where the current incumbents (who I do not vote for) gain 70% of the vote: there is simply no point in my turning up to vote other than to respect the democratic process and those who fought for it.  At least in the European elections I felt it worth voting, if only to ensure one less vote for the BNP and some of the other extremist parties that dominated the ballot paper.
To me, there are huge problems with both systems.

Sometimes I think that it should be the law that people must use their vote.43% turnout this time is appalling,but could be expected,given the latest scandal.People who don't vote are to a large extent responsible for extremists getting seats.Extremists always vote and there will always people who vote that way as a protest and people who join in because they have a grudge against some groups in society.Without the votes of the middle ground,the three main parties and some of the others will be unable to speak for those in society who want to take a balanced view on all the issues that affect us all.

I got home late from work last night and was watching the results for the European Election come through. I am ashamed that the BNP have seats. The BBC were appauled by this result and that a facist party are through to Europe.
They basically said that in the North West if the Green party had another 5000 votes or the Tories a similar number more votes then the BNP wouldn't of obtained a seat in that area. They stated that from the statistics this all came about as many people didn't vote and many wasted votes on small parties which never had a chance.
Don't know much about Nick Griffin but from what the BBC said he is a nasty piece of work and its gutting to hear such a person has been elected.
The one positive was that fewer people voted for the BNP in the north west this year than they did last year.

I don't know much about the other results as these were coming in around 01.30 this morning.
I think the other BNP seat was gained in the Yorkshire/Humber area, i am gobsmaked and ashamed that people think like this and support such a nasty ignorant organisation.

> I am ashamed that the BNP have seats.

Totally agree but watched a lot of the coverage of reults and saw the interview with NG, one thing ha said that possibly swayed a number of people to vote BNP was that law-abiding British ethnic people are suffering 'negative' discrimination when compared to foreign immigrants who come in on current EU rules.
No I would NEVER vote for them but he does have a point.
Chris

Yes,any honest person from any party would understand and agree that immigration has had a huge impact on the way people are feeling at the moment.The trouble is,ordinary people with concerns and worries are not able to openly discuss it without being branded racist.It's often not a question of race,it's more a question of,is there enough for everone?In recession,there isn't,so someone is going to get all the blame,and that someone is whoever speaks with a foreign tongue and/or looks different.It has always been that way,with time needed for the new immigrants to settle in,learn the lingo etc.All those who came before are part of the scenery now and one day so will the newbies.The BNP will just stir things up between people and cause a lot of heartbreak.We have enough thugs on the street without voting for them.

The BNP are not anti immigration-just anti non white immigration

According to its constitution, the BNP is "committed to stemming and reversing the tide of non-white immigration and to restoring, by legal changes, negotiation and consent the overwhelmingly white makeup of the British population that existed in Britain prior to 1948.

So the Ghurkas who have given their lives (& their health in some cases)to protection this country would not be welcome ! Very nice people the BNP-NOT

And what's absolutely horrible is,that if you said any of this to them you'd probably get beaten up.They are very dangerous people.

tatty-ead   Date 08.06.09 14:12 GMT 

Totally agree but watched a lot of the coverage of reults and saw the interview with NG, one thing ha said that possibly swayed a number of people to vote BNP was that law-abiding British ethnic people are suffering 'negative' discrimination when compared to foreign immigrants who come in on current EU rules.
No I would NEVER vote for them but he does have a point.

british isnt an ethnicity, its a nationality, one that combines numerous ethnicities.

unless, of course, he also means that black british people are suffering at the hands of white polish EU nationals?
ummm....let me think!

of course, one does have to ask exactly what is this 'negative discrimination' that we are suffering due to the prescence of 'foreign immigrants' (ive never heard of non-foreign immigrants, but thats another discussion), and if we aren't law abiding, does that mean we arent suffering from it?

equally, does that mean that we are the foreign immigrants, causing discrimination for the Frenchies, when we live over there under the same EU rules?

dont suppose NG went as far as actually explaining what he meant, did he???

 

doing 3 other things while it was on so probably only got half the story but he seemed to be saying that some groups - inc failed asylum seekers and legal immigrants who do not alwats have jobs but bring extended families with them seemed to be favoured when compared to lifelong residents who have paid tax etc for ??? years but are told 'not entitled' when need is there.
Apologies in advance if I have it wrong or if I upset anyone.
Chris

It's very telling that nobody from an 'ethnic minority' is allowed to join the party, even if their family has lived and worked in Britain for generations.

pmsl... they really are rather dim aren't they? "foreign immigrants"- as opposed to domestic ones? and 'negative discrimination' is a nifty wee phrase lol, i understand the concept of postive discrimination but surely discrimination is negative anyway...

one has to wonder when they rage about the rights of Anglo-Saxons have they ever considered where Saxony is? and indeed in so doing why they then point out that "Bodicea was white!" in their adds... white, yes, Anglo-Saxon...no.

> inc failed asylum seekers and legal immigrants who do not alwats have jobs but bring extended families with them seemed to be favoured when compared to lifelong residents who have paid tax etc for ??? years but are told 'not entitled' when need is there

Half truths & actual downright lies as always from these Neo-Nazis

Failed asylum seekers are not allowed to work in any EU country so they will always not have legal jobs, some bring families with them, but most are single males.

Legal migrants do not always breing their families, the vast majority have jobs, that no one here wants, live in fairly poor conditions & send most of their money back to their families who are still in their home countries.

As to being favoured to UK born tax payers-who are turned down(presumably you meant for benefits)& told you are not entitled wrong again I'm afraid, the same benefit conditions apply to all & they always have done. Most UK born residents who do get benefits have an income that exceeds the benefit rates. I will lose all three of my benefits next year when I get my works pension, no Retirement Pension for me on my 60th birthday I will be on my works pension only for 5 months. More than I get now, but I will also have to pay 3/4 council tax(I live alone)which will mean I'm not a lot better off ! Fortunately as I have medicated diabetes I won't have to pay for my medication.

If the BNP had their way I would be turfed out of the UK, because of my religion & the fact that although I look white I'm ethnically"dirty"in their eyes.

BTW I've worked from 21 until my health meant that I could no longer do the highly stressful & difficult job that I had been doing for nearly 35 years !

I notice too,from the news tonight that they actually got less votes than last time,but because of the low turnout they got a higher percentage of the votes that were actually cast.Again proving the importance of the need for the middle ground voters to turn out and do their bit.

proving the importance of the need for the middle ground voters to turn out and do their bit.

I think that you'll find it's 'middle ground voters' who are voting for them! :(  I have friends in the Leeds area.  Very middle ground older people, Yorkshire born and bred, and these are the people who are fed up with what's happening to 'their Yorkshire'.  Yorkshire people are very proud and you can't tell them what to think - they're living with the problems! :(  We're only watching from outside........

Whilst not supporting extreme views myself, I can understand why they are getting more support.

>Whilst not supporting extreme views myself, I can understand why they are getting more support.

From what I heard on the TV yesterday, they actually got fewer votes than before - just that there was an even lower turnout than before, so their proportion of the cotes cast was higher. In Yorkshire the candidate won with a paltry 10% of the votes! That's not a majority view!

If everyone had bothered to vote in their usual way it's highly unlikely they'd have got in.

Mmm I think it's a pity that some people feel the need to vote for them, but they obviously do. :( 
The people that I know who support them are educated, balanced people who have many friends in the minorities .........  They feel that the main stream parties don't understand what's happening in their part of the country and as we all have to be so politically correct in what we say these days, nobody discusses what's REALLY going on. :(

But not so many as before.

Taken from Nick Robinson's newslog:

"In 2004, the BNP in the North West polled 134,959 votes. In 2009, they polled 132,194. So, why did he win?"

ANswer: because of voter apathy. Everyone who didn't bother to vote - who didn't think it mattered - has put a fascist into power.

I can't seriously believe that people who are voting for them are "middle ground".  If they are, they clearly haven't bothered to find out what the BNP actually stands for.  No doubt many of the older people we are being told have voted BNP spent last weekend commemorating D-Day and the suppression of fascism, yet had just voted for a party with the following views:

On the Soho pub bombings: "The TV footage of dozens of 'gay' demonstrators flaunting their perversions in front of the world's journalists showed just why so many ordinary people find these creatures so repulsive." Nick Griffin

On Rape: "Rape is simply sex. Women enjoy sex, so rape cannot be such a terrible physical ordeal. To suggest that rape, when conducted without violence is a serious crime is like suggesting that force feeding a woman chocolate cake is a heinous offence. A woman would be more inconvienced by having her handbag snatched." Nick Eriksen

"I am well aware that the orthodox opinion is that 6 million Jews were gassed and cremated or turned into lamp shades. Orthodox opinion also once held that the earth is flat... I have reached the conclusion that the 'extermination' tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda, extremely profitable lie and latter witch-hysteria." Nick Griffin 1997

"Without the White race nothing matters [other right-wing parties] believe that the answer to the race question is integration and a futile attempt to create "Black Britons", while we affirm that non-Whites have no place here at all and will not rest until every last one has left our land." Nick Griffin

On Nazi leader Adolf Hitler: 'Yes, Adolf went a bit too far. His legacy is the biggest problem that the British nationalist movement has to deal with. It just creates a bad image." Nick Griffin

On Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler's autobiography: "At 13, I read Mein Kampf, making notes in the margins... I remember thinking, are the Jews really that bad? The chapter I most enjoyed was the one on propaganda and organisation there are some really useful ideas there." Nick Griffin

On democracy: "[BNP voters backed] what they perceived to be a strong, disciplined organisation with the ability to back up its slogan 'Defend Rights for Whites' with well-directed boots and fists. When the crunch comes, power is the product of force and will, not of rational debate." Nick Griffin

On Aids: "A friendly disease because blacks, drug users and gays have it." Mark Collett

"Mein Kampf is my Bible." John Tyndall, founder of the BNP

The answer to violent crime is for every household to own a gun (in their 2005 manifesto)

Women should not work, instead they should have children which is "the career nature ascribed them."

I can't seriously believe that people who are voting for them are "middle ground".
You don't know them - I do. :)

If they are, they clearly haven't bothered to find out what the BNP actually stands for.
They have made their decision from the leaflet that came through their letterboxes as most people do.  But the other parties don't mention what concerns them in their part of the country and in their own community.

I'm not saying that I agree - just explaining how and why it's happening.  It's people who don't see that there is a problem that are actually giving the extremists support.  And I predict that if the problems (sorry, I should say 'issues' to be politically correct these days!) aren't addressed, then parties like the BMP will grow.  :(

Rosemarie, that's horriffic!!!

What worries me is that the BNP have done an excellent job of actually keeping their real views and agendas hidden when campaigning and leafleting.  People are basing decisions on what comes through the letterbox which, for all parties, not just the BNP, is propaganda and nowhere near the whole or the real picture.  Do the people you know really share the views I have quoted above?  I'm not saying that I don't think there are problems in certain parts of the country, btw, just that violence and hatred are not the answer.

I think that your fears are relevant to all the parties Rosemarie.  That's exactly what their all leaflets are intended to do - get votes. :)

Most people actually have very little interest in politics other than how it affects them.  I know many who take don't watch the news or read newspapers and think that voting is a joke! 

My friends in Yorkshire think that they have voted for a party that might sort out their local problems.  As I've said, these are not racist people - they have friends from many communities - but it's the big picture that is unbalanced, because of political correctness.  Until we start calling a spade a spade, which is exactly what they do in Yorkshire :)  then their problems will no be resolved. 

Regardless of what is acceptable in this day and age (and it HAS changed!) you can tell people what it is acceptable to say but you can't tell people how they feel..... :(

> We're only watching from outside........

I live in Salford.Do you honestly believe that I'm watching from the outside?Leeds is no different from many,many other towns and cities in great Britain.no-one who votes for fascists is middle ground,that's not possible.They are using excuses to vote the way they have always felt.My thoughts on why the country is in the state it's in sometimes veer to the so called poliically incorrect-I'm only human after all,but in the end being a  balanced human being,I know that it's a passing phase,and we're still far better off than we would be under the jackboot.