I think the least the vet should have done was apologised profusely and not invoiced you for the op! It does seem rather a large mistake to not notice a puppy! I know it's not about money but their attitude doesn't seem very caring (I for one would have been grovelling in case you took action against me) and they have lost you the price of that puppy through their negligence, so waiving the op cost should be the first thing they should offer.

How are Mum and the other pups now?

i hadn't read yet, i'm so sorry.

what was this idiot playing at? is Roo ok? also are you ok? that is so horrible. i think finding a different vet would be a good idea :(

your poor girl and you, what a time.

i hope the other pups are good though.

> and they have lost you the price of that puppy through their negligence, so waiving the op cost should be the first thing they should offer.
>
>

Dont kbnow if you read the update I put on earlier?

After this morning it is now two pups and not to mention the one that he cut and glued up during the op!

Sorry but as the morning has gone on I'm getting crosser and crosser about it all.

Roo was quite lethargic this morning when she got back from vet but she looks brighter now. My OH is currently cleaning all the carpet cos she is still losing this horrible discharge with dead puppy fur in it!

What a terrible situation - I'm so sorry, and hope that Roo will be better soon.  
I'm pretty sure the reason they're not apologising is that this would be an admission of negligence and they are worried about being sued.  But it's precisely this attitude and refusal to offer an apology that makes it more likely that you would want to sue them.  I hate compensation culture with a passion, but I have to say that this is the worst case of incompetent / negligent veterinary treatment that I have ever heard, it goes way, way beyond a mistake. 

I would take it further than the vet, I would report the incident. I would want a counter claim made. It is worth a solicitors letter. You are paying for private medical care, if it was the NHS they would be took to ***** . I don't think the vets will do anything. They will just want there money. I had grief last year with one in Castle Bromwich B'ham all they said after losing 3 pups unnecessary, was thanks for letting them know that I was not happy with there care. Disgraceful. Thank god your bitch is alive. More luck than judgement.
There are very very few vets that are experienced with whelping of any kind. The more I see and hear the more this is confirmed.

Denese     

I am just open mouthed reading this.  Such horrible practices!  The vet needs to be sued, and reported to the governing agency of veterinarians! (dont know who that would be since I am not in the UK - here its the veterinary college). 

Lets hope that Roo, and the rest of the pups come out ok from this.

I would be switching vets, and laying it hard on them, refusing to pay the bill, saying if you want to be paid, countersue!!! 

Hugs to you and your babies!!! 

poor Roo, mistakes happen once but to make the same mistake twice in the same practice with the same dog is unforgivable.  I agree with all the other posters but would seek an investigation into the working practices of the whole vets practice as your story is horrifying.

Given the amount of mistakes made I would also find another vet (perhaps one with expertise in breeding?) to give your wee roo a full check up to put your mind at rest.  I would be struggling to have any faith with your current surgery and an independent check up may give you peace of mind and also evidence if you do decide to pursue a complaint.

hope roo is feeling better soon and this situation is resolved.

Did these vets actually do 5 years at vet school or just take a weekend course??

You always pay special interest in your own breed and i have been very shocked to read this story. I really hope your girl manages to get through this, and how on earth they could miss 2 puppies in the uterine horns is beyond belief. £800 is quite steep for what was performed anyway, but id give them nothing and charge them for the treatment she recieves at the new vets. Id seriously warn others about this practice!!

Hope mum and babies pull through without any more issues, and sorry for the loss of the 2. When i lost 2 in my own litter i wondered whether id lost out on a showdog or not, it always makes you think about the 'what ifs' and the loving families that they will never meet.

Louise

I agree you should get her assessed fully by another vet ASAP. Praying she is ok x

i carnt beleive what im reading ....i feel sick !!! my goodness your family and your poor girl have gone to hell and still not back ...id go to another vets and save all your bills and charge the (i canrt put what i like to call the vets that have done this to you all) ...i hope all babys and mum cope though all this mess ...do what ever you can to get the vets struck off ....
ive got everything crossed you get it sorted and soon xxx

You must feel as if you're living a nightmare.  I can't believe such utter incompetence.  Not only would I withold payment, after not receiving an apology, I would feel tempted to take it to the papers - that would have immediate effect - losing clients.

While I appreciate that course of action sounds harsh, they have risked your girls life.  I could never forgive that.

This is such a sad story and I cannot believe the reaction of the vet!

I really hope your girl and her pups are ok.

My thoughts are with you

How often has this kind of thing happened with this vet?  How many times is it going happened? 
These are the questions I have.  To miss a puppy in a c-section is careless and rushing things.  The vet should be put on notice from the College, to prevent this from happening again.  You would not think twice of reporting a medical doctor from missing a twin in a C-section would you? 
When you turn to a professional about things you expect nothing less than do care that things are done to a degree of excellence, and anything that falls short of the professional standard to be reported to the licencing body in of a profession, that is how we are all assured a degree of professional standards and excellence.

Hi, first of all I hope your girl and her babies are ok after the awful ordeal they have had to go through. My next thought would be seeking legal advice to have this vet struck off (I would want his head on a sharp pointy stick and his body fed to the lions!) Your bitch could easily have died due to this vets incompetence which is frankly very disturbing. Accepting risks when we breed  our bitches is one thing,we all hope that things go well but its sometimes the case that things go wrong. When that happens we rely on vets to help but this vet did not even do the basic check of your girl before stitching her up. The shape of a dogs womb is Y shaped and he should have checked that both horns were empty before he even thought of closing her up. This vet needs the book throwing at him. I hope and pray that he is prevented from putting anyone else through the horrendous ordeal that you have had to endure.

We have quite a few Vets nurses and receptionists on this forum, I wonder if they could give their input and what they think would be the best route to go down. Although as far as I know it would be best to contact the Royal College first and go for a private prosecution as the Royal College isn't about getting money back but about disciplinary action.

> however I do not agree with reporting the vet. Mistakes do happen

Since this was in reply to me - I agreed that mistakes happen - however that is a BIG mistake - and as can be seen from the OP's further posts, even bigger than at first thought. Just because a vet is reported does not automatically mean they will be disciplined or struck off - the complaint will be investigated. But if vets are NOT reported when they do something serious, then the same vet could be doing it time and again - the RCVS need to know, so they can take action if there is an ongoing problem with a particular vet. They know mistakes can happen, what are slight mistakes and what are severe mistakes. But if you want to be a vet - you will be a professional, and you won't, I presume, want your profession brought into disrepute by a vet who is behaving in a negligent or unprofessional manner. See what I mean?

How is Roo doing today? I hope she is picking up and getting a bit better, poor girl.

As I understand it, routes to go down:

1. Take up matter with practice (I know you have, but just setting it out). They can waive fees etc if they choose to - and it depends whether you are satisfied with their response. And/or:
2. Report the vet to the RCVS.

If you are looking for compensation etc I think you would have to go for a private prosecution - the RCVS only deals with the professional's ability to carry out his/her job, and that depends how much the money is an issue to you, versus the risk of losing, court costs etc, and the stress of it all.

Hope that's some help. TBH the RCVS may be able to advise you further regarding what you can expect from the practice and/or private court case, and are probably your best point of contact once liaising with practice has been exhausted.

Nah wasn't aimed at you hon...just hit reply on the lowest post.

I do agree that missing 2 pups is inexcusable but I would struggle to report it myself as I would not like it to end his career...granted it may not come to that but i couldnt live with that on my conscience if it did.

Kellystewart198 said: > I would struggle to report it myself as I would not like it to end his career..<

I think I would feel that if the RCVS decided that his career should end, then end it should!   Would you trust that particular vet with your precious dog?    I don't think I would.

The RCVS may decide that s/he needs more continous training/assessment - this may be the umpteenth complaint that they have had - we do not know.   And the RCVS will not know about the situation unless the OP notifies them - which she should do, imo.    It should not be about gaining compensation/not paying the bill - it is about the incompetance of this veterinary practice in (1) leaving one puppy inside after a ceasarian and then compounding the error by not checking the bitch out completely - by scan or more surgery - after that error was drawn to their attention.

Yes I think I would trust him as much as any other vet....and by that I mean I always have doubts anyways and I make sure I do everything i can to keep an eye on and research whatever issue it is. Granted I have several friends who work in the vet industry so I have access to a lot of unbiased advice.

Oh and it's not just about it ending his career.....although that would be a huge blow to him I do also feel that looking at the bigger picture it could ruin his entire life. Now you may think that that is taking it a bit far but you just don't know of peoples situation and what they've been through. He may view being a vet as his life! Think butterfly effect.....every little thing can have huge and dramatic consequences and I am always very accutely aware of this.

I still can't agree with you. I mean I respect your thoughts and totally understand why you think that but I don't. It was a mistake and yes incompetent but everyone has bad days. And personally I'd make sure that the owners of the practise knew the full situation and if there had been other incidents then I would trust them that it would be dealt with professionally and be reported if it should be i.e they all take an oath and i expect them to follow it. At the end of the day we all have to put our trust in other people and it can be very difficult but it is a necessary evil.

I'm just thankful the rest of the pups and mum seem to be getting on ok.

In the first instance you need to seek a meeting with the senior partner

At this meeting you need to request a true copy (signed off as such) (to take away ) of the clinical notes pertaining to your bitch
At the meeting you should express your concern regarding the treatment of your bitch at the practice and keeping a level head,I know this is difficult because emotions quite rightly are running high,you need to describe in simple terms step by step what happened from the day you took her home following the section all the way through to the delivery of the two pups.
It either party takes notes then both parties should be given a copy
The best advice I can give is simply
1 State your case ie why you are unhappy

2 Listen to what the senior partner has to say

3 Make no further comment

4 Obtain the clinical history from the notes (which you are fully entitled to have) and take a copy home  with you.

5 Take your time to fully reflect on the situation before you accept any offer made by the practice and or report the situation to the RCVS.Once you start the ball rolling you must be certain of being able to carry it through.

You  also need to be aware that all veterinary practices  do take out liabilty insurance to cover any claims for compensation.Unfortunately for you,this insurance will kick in staight away,so in the event that you were to sue,the practice would immediately send the claim to their insurance co,thus they would incur no cost,but unfortunately normall pet insurance does not cover you for such problems,so the cost would be on you from day one.
For what it is worth my though is,to leave one pup in there is incompetent,but to leave two pups in there is grossly incompetent and no excuse could justfy this

Look at it this way Kelly - would you feel the same way if a doctor were to act in the same manner?

Everyone can have an "off" day - but doctors, vets and the like cannot bring their "off" days into their professional lives.

Have just read through this thread and am gobsmacked that this vet was negligent/incompetent on not just one but several occasions :(  To compound this by acting in the way the vet and the practise have is IMHO inexcuseable :( :(

At the very least this vet needs to be reported to RCVS in order that they can assess his need for further training etc.

> Oh and it's not just about it ending his career.....although that would be a huge blow to him I do also feel that looking at the bigger picture it could ruin his entire life. Now you may think that that is taking it a bit far but you just don't know of peoples situation and what they've been through. He may view being a vet as his life! Think butterfly effect.....every little thing can have huge and dramatic consequences and I am always very accutely aware of this.

Are you saying then that this vet should not bear the consequences of his actions because he may or may not be affected by it?  By writing this you are in effect acting as judge and jury, something which you aren't in a position to be ;)

The actions of this vet may very well 'ruin his life' if this is not an isolated incident, on the other hand it may be the saving of him if he gets the right support and training/retraining at this juncture of his life.  The only people able to judge which is the case are the RCVS and they can't help either way if they aren't aware of whats happened.

Can imagine how upset and stressed and let down the owners are feeling right now :(  Hope the bitch improves quickly and the pups continue to thrive.

There is nothing wrong with debate but at times it goes way beyond that to the point one person says you are wrong I am right and a crazy arguement ensues. I would never and have never said anything to that effect. And I am not playing judge, quite the opposite - I said I would trust the practise to deal with it appropriately and report the vet should they believe it to be worthy of that action.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and I am giving mine. I didnt tell her what to do I just said If I was in the same position that's how I think I'd react. There are many, many things I agree with on this topic...yes he needs training, yes he needs talking to etc etc but my point is I would not like to be the reason someone lost their career and god forbid went and threw himself off a cliff because he now has no livlihood and to him he has nothing to live for....far fetched perhaps yes but that's just how I think about things I care about other people and how my actions affect them and live accordingly.

I am not going to say anything else on this matter and I'd appreciate if no one else makes any comments about my opinions as well. No hard feelings though I  just don't like it when people react in that way as I'm sure you guys don't either.

And most importantly my thoughts are with Roo and her pups :)

I think Paris has hit the nail on the head here. Excellent post Paris

Remember that TV programme a while ago? Can't remember its name but it was BBC. One vet LIED about a dog being severely injured, kept it in for several days and did nothing, all just to charge the owners as much money as possible. He got struck off -then was reinstated by the RCVS!!! Sadly it seems VERY rare indeed for the RCVS to struck somebody off permanently. I for one would feel better if they did -I don't want to know there are vets like this one out there missing something as obvious as two pups.

As you say, Kelly, first thoughts and good wishes go to Roo and pups.

Just as you say you would hate to be responsible for someone losing their job/career, etc, so I would feel about someone losing a much loved pet.   We agree to differ :)

lol well said Loki's mum :) differ on somethings yes but I'd also hate to see someone losing their pet....I know how much my dogs mean to me.

Guess it's all down to context and the situation...you never do really know how you'll react in that situation and hopefully none of us will ever find out.

>> Oh and it's not just about it ending his career.....although that would be a huge blow to him I do also feel that looking at the bigger picture it could ruin his entire life.

this is slightly off topic and I don't want to highjack the thread but vets have higher rates of suicide than most other professions and I recall being at a lecture and the researcher highlighting the lack of supervision vets have compared to medics treating humans and linking this with isolation and suicide. 

Human doctors are shadowed regularly and there is usually many other people around but in the vets the only people who have been there when I have been in with the vet are children on work experience from school.  A poorly skilled vet is therefore less likely to be picked up on than a poorly skilled doctor who could be identified far earlier in his/her career.

I would not like to be the reason someone lost their career and god forbid went and threw himself off a cliff because he now has no livlihood and to him he has nothing to live for....far fetched perhaps yes but that's just how I think about things I care about other people and how my actions affect them and live accordingly.

If reporting him, for missing two pups on c section, and then having them stay inside the mom for 5-10 days before she gave birth, would force him to loose his job than so be it.  It isnt the posters fault for this mistake, not at all, its the vets fault.  It isnt the posters fault if she went to the college and reported him, and he lost his job.  And it DEFINATELY isnt the posters fault if the vet ended up taking his own life because of this. 
The only responsibility lies with the vet in question, no one else.  He made the mistake.  He let two pups die.  He let the mom be at risk for many different infections and possibly death as well.  He refused to check for a second pup after the first one was delivered 5 days post c section. 
I wouldnt want the poster to feel like she shouldnt report the vet for his wrong doing because he MAY loose his job, and he MAY take his life, and not do it because they feel it would be their fault, because it isnt. 

i 100% agree with u crespin ....very well said !!!!!

I've only just caught up with your post and my heart goes out to you. I do hope poor Roo and her remaining babies do well and overcome this shocking event. You must be in pieces over it all.

I think Paris has given you some very good advice. From experience there is no substitute for having things in writing when you are putting in a complaint.  I think you do need to pursue this even if it turns out you can resolve it at practice level.  It's just not acceptable for the matter to be left as it is.

All of you are in my thoughts, all the best to Roo and her pups.

his is slightly off topic and I don't want to highjack the thread but vets have higher rates of suicide than most other professions and I recall being at a lecture and the researcher highlighting the lack of supervision vets have compared to medics treating humans and linking this with isolation and suicide.

But they also have MUCH easier access to drugs to do it easily and painlessly with than any other profession including doctors.

Like I've said 2 or 3 times now this is my opinion and the original poster is an adult and is more than capable of digesting the information here and deciding for herself her course of action.

I'm not sure how simple an operation a c-section actually is but I'm guessing not very. You don't know the full details...perhaps he was rushed as the mother was under GA for too long...yes still a mistake but surely it's forgiveable? Perhaps another emergency patient came in? None of us know and it's up to the OP to find out and make her decision from there not go on a witch hunt.

The only thing I know is I would feel guilty....most wouldn't I know, but I am not most people and  I would appreciate if people stopped attacking my morals this is not about me.

Again I will ask for people to stop commenting on my opinions, please, I do not like it and I do not treat any of you on here like that and I would appreciate the same respect  in return.

And to the OP do you have any updates for us? We all would really like to know how Roo and the other pups are getting on?

I'm going to close this now as it seems to be going round in circles & the OP has received plenty of advice on what to do next & who to contact with a complaint.