Hi everyone,

Got a bit of an odd one that would appreciate your opinions/thoughts on. Has anyone had a similar experience or heard of this before?

We have recently had our first litter of 10 puppies from our beautiful bitch (large breed). We were really looking forward to the whole experience. But, and its a a big but, it didn't all go quite as we expected.

Basically after 24 hours of stage 1 labour she had 1st pup normally albeit without any contractions. Two hours later we were at the vets and 2 shots of oxcytocin later still not contracting so a Caesar was the only option.

We were sent home and told to wait for phonecall after op. Being a pessimist I naturally feared we would lose some pups and of course really worried about our girl having to go under the knife, but was ecstatic when they rung to say she was ok and had another 9 healthy pups. 10 in total. The vet said her womb was so tightly packed she would never have been able to have normal births. He also apologised as he had cut one of the pups during the op but he was ok.

This was all on the Tuesday lunchtime and the next few days as I'm sure you can imagine were extremely busy and and very tiring but all was relatively well . She had carried on digging all week and we wondered if she was in some pain from the op plus her green discharge was like an oil slick and showing no signs of slowing up. The poor pups kept getting drenched not to mention my carpets! So on the Saturday afternoon 5 full days after the Caesar we took her back to the Vets for check-up, and to see tthat he stitches were ok.  The vet wasn't overly worried, felt her abdominals etc and prescribed a 2nd week of anti biotics but told us to take her back in 3 days if the discharge still wasn't slowing up.

Later on Saturday evening just as I thought all I had to worry about was who to vote for on Britains got Talent,  she was outside squatting to have a wee when a pups head suddenly appeared! It was panic stations not only cos all the delivery stuff had all been put away but just the sheer shock of our girl still having this pup inside her.

The pup was a real struggle to get out. She wasn't contracting but I eventually managed to ease it out.The placenta was still attached. It was dead but had been a perfect male weighing 8 oz.

Our girl was ok and back with her other pups within ten minutes of it all happening but as you can imagine we were just in total shock wondering how on earth this had happened. I was absolutely distraught. Least we now knew why she had been digging - Her hormones must have been all over the place, poor thing! At first I worried I lost the pup trying to get it out but in hindsight now I know it was allready dead and that the anaesthetic of the Caesar would have killed it. My partner on the other hand was fuming and we were both left wondering what harm a dead puppy in her womb for 5 days could have caused!! Pyometra was our biggest worry.

We rung the vets leaving a message with the receptionist and a Vet rang back and acknowledged that it should never have happened. He asked if we wanted to take her down to be checked out but we declined as she seemed to be fine, her temp was normal and she was already on anti biotics.

On the Monday the Vet that had actually performed the op rang us. He did apologise however said he had got 9 out alive and that it was quite usual to lose a puppy or two in each litter!! As you can imaginge this was the last thing my partner expected to hear. Yes we certainly agree with that statement and had he rung after the op saying he had got out 9 puppies but that sadly one hadn't made it we wouldn't have thought anything about it. But to totally miss a puppy and sew her back up surely that has to be some sort of negligence.

A breeder friend of ours said we should take the puppy in, slap it on the desk and point blank refuse to pay for the op which will be around the £800 mark. This did seem excessive and not a course of action we would want to persue. However we felt it would be gesture of goodwill if they were to reduce the amount we owe due to the distress caused and the harm it could have and still could do to our dog. We appreciate that he didn't miss the pup on purpose but by the same token surely it deserves some proper acknowledgement. When we said this to the vets though he was surprised and asked us to get back to him with how much we wanted them to reduce the bill and he would look into it.

Are we being unreasonable? I would really appreciate your thoughts on this matter, and especially like to know if this is infact more common complication of a caesarean that we hadn't heard of.

Thanks
Amanda

Amin: Edited as more than one puppy

Hi i cant comment as i have never went through this with any of my girls but i am appalled that this has happened to you someone who has had a lot more experience will be along i am sure they will know whats the best way to go about this

Your poor girl must of been so uncomfortable

In my opinion, you could sue for negligence.

I remember once, asking my vet to explain a stump pyo to me.  He gave me an example of a bitch rushed in as an emergency with this.  She had had a C-section and spay prior to this - before she came into the country. 

My vet found a dead puppy in the vaginal canal.  My vet said that if it had been a vet here, he would not have hesitated to report it, and get the vet struck off.

Totally wrong for your girl to have a pup left inside her, and inexcusable.  JMHO

She was but of course we just put it down to being sore from the op.

Thanks

Hi

A few friends and family have also suggested sueing but as they dont really have any experience of breeding I thought you guys would be the ones to ask.

I'm torn between not wanting to ruin someones carreer but also not wanting anyone else to go through same as us. Its a tough call to make.

This happened to us some years ago. A locum carried out the caesarian and 2 days later our bitch produced a very dead puppy. We contacted our vet who came out and examined our bitch and apologised. Our vet did not charge us for the caesarian - the locum had to pay and also pay us the price of a puppy. He was not asked as a locum in that practice again! 

torn between not wanting to ruin someones career - your life could of been torn apart if you had lost your beloved dog, this had appauld me, that should just not happen, you put your trust in your vets, are expected to pay all that money and that happens - i'm afraid i would be off to the nearest solicitor !

amanda thats terrible, i hope your bitch is ok now and the rest of the pups are alright.

the litter i helped with had a similar and yet opposite issue (if that makes sense...), our girl was having a very slow labour so after inactivity for a while she was scanned and vet said two pups, 1 in distress but didn't want to caesar. she delivered the distressed girl who died later, she clearly had brain damage from oxygen deprivation- just as yours was she was perfect. the vet again pointed out the number of deaths in litters but prior to this said something about no one noticing brain damage in a bullmastiff, what terrific bedside manner!

anyway, time passed and no second pup emerged even with lots of oxytocin so the vet who'd scanned her wanted her on the table. we anxiously await a call and when it comes they inform us essentially "oops! no other pup!"

essentially most of the litters vet fees were waived but the attitude of the vets about it was appaling, they were extremely uncaring about it which is what made it so much worse. previously we lost a bitch who was not tied properly after an emergency spay for pyo and bled to death. that vet (different practise) was so devestated he ended up not working for months, he offered to admit liability and let my family go to town on him without any argument. my parents didn't mainly because he sincerely was sorry.

i would pursue some course with this, they should not be left unchastised.

> I'm torn between not wanting to ruin someones carreer but also not wanting anyone else to go through same as us

not at all. people trust this vet, your girl could have died along with this pup. by not pursuing it the vets free to be so careless to other peoples beloved pets.

its an important and trusted position, it should be lived up to

Pod

That is interesting and nice that your vets were the ones coming up with the solutions.

It would have been so mucj easier if something similar had been offered rather than them throwing the ball back at us. I wouldn't care we even received the bill in the post this Tuesday.

Speak to the vet practice again, and put in a formal complaint. I would see how it is handled "inhouse" but if you are not happy with the outcome, or in fact even if the vet is still being a bit "ah well" about it I would then report the vet (and practice if shocking I guess) to the RCVS = http://www.rcvs.org.uk/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=89916

I have to say I am very shocked at how a puppy was missed, even in a large bitch with a big litter

> its an important and trusted position, it should be lived up to

100% agree with this statement.

We are extremely lucky in having a very good & caring practice - both vets and nurses. I would contact your vet and tell them that you are not paying. Your bitch was obviously unwell and you could have lost her. You have also lost a puppy through no fault of yours. They did not give you good service. I am sure if you point this out calmly and firmly they will see this is the correct course. Vets need to keep a good reputation - or they will lose their clients!

Looking at some of the replies so far there is some good vets out there but likewise some that seem so far removed from what the job should really entail which is helping animals not just helping themselves to money!!

Appreciate the decision your parents had to make and it just goes to show the impact of a sincere apology from an obviously caring vet.

Thanks for the good advice and the link.

Just really hope it doesn't come to that.

I would be absolutely fuming. Not about the money issue but the lost pup. I think that the bill has arrived so quickly shows a complete lack of empathy on their part and that would have wound me up even more. Maybe you should look into this further if only even to raise the bar for others that have to follow in your girls footsteps, so that they, the pups and their owners do not have to suffer the same fate.

> I have to say I am very shocked at how a puppy was missed, even in a large bitch with a big litter

Utter and total incompetence, and the vet needs to be struck off before other dog owners suffer the same heartbreak.

How awful for you all and your poor girl. Lets hope she can get on with being a good mum now

> When we said this to the vets though he was surprised and asked us to get back to him with how much we wanted them to reduce the bill and he would look into it.

>

The fact that he asked how much you want the bill reduced, sounds like he knows he messed up IMO.

People make mistakes - it is a fact of life. But that sounds like clinical negligence. Surely he realises the seriousness of his error? You sound as though you are being extremely reasonable. I would ring and ask to speak to the Practice Principal/ whoever is in charge. If you don't get a satisfactory response, then I would suggest you contact the RCVS and make a formal complaint. Vets are only human - but it is a bad mistake, and the vet that made it should be upset and extremely apologetic IMO - if not, then I would be concerned he was rather too blase and there was a risk of him doing the same again. It is a serious error for a professional to make. You certainly have grounds for complaint/ taking matters further, depending how you wish to pursue it.

More to the point, I am really glad your girl is OK, and that the remaining pups are doing well. :-)

So glad mum and pups are good!

I agree with a lot of what was said here however I do not agree with reporting the vet. Mistakes do happen and I'd hate this to happen to me later in life (im applying to start vet med next year) they are under a great deal of pressure and they wouldnt be vets unless they adored animals, I truely believe that.

Yes I could understand reporting him/her if he had caused death of mother/pups on the table (which could of happened). I do think that the vet's fee's should be waived as a good will gesture and for the practise to realise a real error was made not only in the left pup but also in the surgeon cutting one of the pups.

This is just my opinion of course.

Really hope you manage to get some piece of mind over the subject

In my view the vet should compensate you for the lost puppy - the same amount as you would sell that puppy for, and they should also offer a similar amount for the distress that was caused to you and your bitch. In other words you shouldn't have to pay anything at all.

My boss had a run in with a young vet over one of her horses. She complained to the head of the practice who backed the vet at the time to her - but what was said in private I don't know as within a month he was gone!

I would put a complaint into the surgery and the RCVS.  Maybe word it in a way where he won't get struck off but so that you can ensure that nothing ever happens like this again.  The pup must of been alive for some time after the C section if it was in such good condition.  Hope things go the way you would like and I definitely would not be paying the full fee.

Hello...what a story...quite unbelievable.

I am surprised that any of them acknowledge that it should never have happened and I am not surprised the vet skirted around the issue. To admit what a terrible mistake this was and the consequences of his actions could lead him into a capability hearing with his governing body never mind issues of sued for incompetence and neglect !

At least the story had a happy ending but it could have been very different. I am also sorry for the little boy who was left behind...poor baby. Maybe you could negotiate free inoculations for them all as a good will gesture !???

As other's have said I think that you need to write to the surgery and see how it is dealt with. 

Vets are human and mistakes can be made and if he had of admitted it was a mistake, it shouldn't have happened and waved at least part of the cost off the bill then that to me is fine, but to say he delived 9 healthy puppies and none died...well you sometimes expect not all pups to make it in a litter, even if born naturally not all puppies make it or even come out alive.  The fact is it was a dangerous situation for your bitch to be in, to have a pup left inside her.

I think the main thing is, do you trust your vet now?

I know this is a different situation but personally my vets I think are fantastic, they do everything for the animals first and foremost and when we had a bitch knocked down by a car that got taken to them they did everything and she was in there for half a day on meds and constantly watched, she never made it due to internal injuries and the bill was only that of the cost of the cremation because they couldn't do anything for her.  We were expecting a largish bill with meds and time and kenneling etc.  I think there are alot of vets in the business for the animals, there are afew in it for the money and if your vet is one of them then should they be allowed to stay and treat other peoples pets aswell?

I would contact the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons for a complaint form. It is bad enough that they missed a puppy but to have that attitude in my opinion is disgraceful. Of course she could have lost a puppy in the scheme of things, but it is more important that you didn't lose her and lets face it leaving a dead puppy in there could have caused all sorts of complications. I believe it to be negligence. The College cannot get you your money back but you can do that with a private prosecution. But in the meantime I would put a complaint it.

Hi Amanda

it's hard for you to make a logical decison right now as your emotions are raw and you are exhausted physically and emotionally.

I would not make a decision yet but would write notes on every thing that has happened.

My girl was given a caeserian to get a pup out that vet said he could see on scan and when he got in there was nothing there- Like you I was angry- He also charged a fee.

After a few weeks logic told me he had not tried to cause harm and his actions were not deliberate- People make mistakes and when vets do it can be hard.

My vet took 10% off my bill - not much but something but has subsequently had the company who made his scanner in for extra training and we have had long discussions

Only you can decide what to do in regard to his costly mistake but if you believe there was no malice do you want to be responsible for the stress legal action could cause and the risk of his career over a mistake.

Maybe in a few week you can chat to him when emotions are less raw and find a way forward for you both even if it means a change of vet

Terrible situation but I'm with others you need to make a formal complaint to the practise and the RCVS this individual obviously needs more training or a refresher as would be the course of action within human medicine without a complaint they won't know said Vet is failing in the field.

Yes a mistake was made and its human but they are highly paid and highly qualified people in a position of trust, my vets waived a fee for an admin mistake because I complained that my bitches PTS details were included in my mthly account invoice after being specifically told I'm paying NOW so you don't put it on my invoice I don't want to see her name on there!

Maybe I'm old fashioned or its my military background but folk seem too quick to make excuses up for their errors thereby holding themselves and others to lower standards than is acceptable, after all in this situation it cost a puppies life and put the mother and litter at serious risk too.

It is very difficult process to actually get a totally incompetent vet struck off, you only have to look at some of the cases reported by the RCVS which involve animails suffering & dying on more that one occassion, vets being drunk at work, etc etc

You do need to report this & lodge a complaint both at practice & RCVS level, if this should happen again more than one unborn puppy could die.

Many years ago due to a vet's mistake whilst he was under the influence a cat died, no one complained & the next error he made in similar circumstances cost not only the animals life, but also many weeks of pain & suffering. No one back then complained either & in the end he died in an RTA(whilst over the limit)& killed other people as well. If only the the first owner had complained or the second the human lives may not have been lost.

No amount of money will replace the lost puppy, the suffering your bitch has gone through nor the distress the whole incident has caused you, money isn't the crucial matter here, but the errors made by the vet involved. We, as a nation do not on the whole, complain enough about this sort of thing, Vets are human & yes they make mistakes, but they should own up to them & try to compensate without having to be"forced"into doing so by the RCVS or court cases

Hi everyone

Firstly thank you to everyone for their support and advice- can't thank you all enough for your kind words but need to update you of sad new development.

Last Wednesday Roo collapsed in her whelping box. I rushed her to Vets and they took her bloods. Said blood sugar and calcium levels were all ok although her temeperature was up. Told to continue with the synolux and keep an eye on her.

This was a diff vet to one that did op. I mentioned that still got discharge and still digging and did we need scan or x ray in case still another pup inside. She said no cos had done internal and her cervix had closed down.

Friday night she was back at vet for stitches out and another quick check told she was ok.

This morning, Saturday, she squated down for a wee and a paw was hanging out !!!!!!!!!!

As it is now 10 days since caesarean and 5 days since last dead pup we decided best let vet do it this time in case of any complications with Roo. We rushed her in and he eventually got out a very decomposed dead puppy and loads of gunge.

We had to ask for an x ray to prove that no more pups were in there as one wasn't offered and Bordeaux do often have up to 14 pups. Thankfully he did x ray and it all looked clear. She now has a temperature of 102.6 and is carrying infection inside her for which he gave her a pesssary and more synolux and some rimadyl for the inflammation caused by the infection.

One of the senior partners came to speak to us and re itereted that they were confident that she was now sorted but NO APOLOGY or remorse shown. My other half went ballistic! When asked what they were going to do about it- 2 dead puppies, a cut puppy and no telling yet what could happen to our precious Roo we were told that " THESE THINGS HAPPEN".

He said he would need to speak to the other practice senior partner who was away in Scotland till Monday so we would have to wait till then. We said that this other partner would no doubt have a mobile with him and that we would expect a call at least by tea time today or we were suing.

I think that under the circumstances we have been quite restrained but I cant tell you how angry we are now.

Poor Roo is now losing this horrendous discharge that has puppy fur mixed in with it. Its so upsetting and she is quite lethargic though still sorting all her puppes out bless her

I was dissapointed in them as vets firstly for the missing the 1st pup but understnding of the fact that accidents do happen I was more upset at the lack of remorse shown BUT now after 2nd pup and still no remorse, apolgy or offer forthcoming we shall definately be persuing a legal route.

OMG that is horrendous, I'm so sorry for your poor girl and hope she comes through this ok, as for the vets, I would definitely change then take it further!

Definately. We have 3 dogs at the mo and have had upto 5 so you can imagine they they have had a lot of business from us over the years and this is how we get repaid.

No more.

Unbelieveable, cannot believe you have had to go through this again, sheer incompetence & I cannot even imagine how stressed out you & your OH must be.  I think for the sake of other patients of this practice you must pursue this, you may be in for a difficult, stressful time but if it prevents other people having to go through this it will be well worth it. I know in your other post you mentioned not wanting to ruin someone's career but I think in this case they are clearly not capable of fulfilling their role as a vet & should be struck off straight away.  Glad to hear your girl & the other pups are doing well though, hope your luck improves from now onwards.

No remorse and no apology...this story just gets worse. Hope mum, pups and family are bearing up through this. They probably hope it will all blow over. You cant leave this, it has to be a wake up call to the vets to pursue this through the appropriate channels. Change vets now and seek legal advice. They have had every opportunity to apologise and talk to you re this. Im so sorry for you all, must be the most horrific experience.

Absolutely an apalling situation for you to have to go through.............I would take this further!  Just my opinion.

Lots of hugs for your girl, hope she can soon enjoy her pups to the full. x

Thank heavens you are so on the ball could you imagine what could happen without such kind owners, you should definatly pursue the legal options and get a satisfactory outcome. i wish you all the luck and hope for a speedy recovery

Poor Roo, what is so amazing is she is still caring for her pups, what a wonderful dog she must be.

As to the vet I would never set foot through the door again ,except to persue a case against them... I would be so angry. You showed such understanding after the first terrible errors, but this is unforgivable and totally inept...IMO!

I just cannot understand why the vet did not give your poor bitch a scan after the first dead puppy had been delivered - I would be extremely concerned about the possibility of losing her, let alone a puppy.

You must make an initial complaint to the practice itself and I would also copy in the RCVS at the same time.

Hope all starts to get better from here on in.

Absolutely disgusting! I'm not one for suing for the sake of it, it's not about money but they don't even seem to care or acknowledge they've done any wrong. I think you have to make a complaint against them now :-( Yes everyone makes mistakes, but it's all about how you go about trying to put things right afterwards and ensuring procedures are put in place so it doesn't happen again, neither of which your vets seem to be interested in.

Poor Roo, good wishes to her and pups xx

If this is all true then you really do need to be taking this further now, no way should 2 pups have been missed.

get her to the vet asap to get her scan again

Absolutely disgusting! I'm not one for suing for the sake of it, it's not about money but they don't even seem to care or acknowledge they've done any wrong. I think you have to make a complaint against them now  Yes everyone makes mistakes, but it's all about how you go about trying to put things right afterwards and ensuring procedures are put in place so it doesn't happen again, neither of which your vets seem to be interested in.

Totally agree with above.

I have not long finished posting on your original loss of the first puppy so can hardly believe what I am reading in this post.

You really must speak to the RCVS on Monday and ask for a complaint form. They do not pursue the Vet for compensation, you have to do this yourselves, but they must do something about this negligence. Money would be no compensation for you losing your bitch and there is a definite case for negligence. I am helping a friend at this moment re: the loss of her dog. The RCVS are really nice and very helpful.

OMG!!!
This is total negligence, your poor poor girl, sorry but there is no excuse for these continuing mistakes.
Not that money is the priority here at all but i certainly would refuse point blank to pay them a penny and then i would be reporting this vet to the RCVS

Change vets pronto too

I really hope your girl is ok and makes a speedy and full recovery, bless her heart give her a big hug from me x

Please let us know how your baby girl gets on in the next few days :)

All the best
Mandy x

Unbelievable! I fully agree with everyone else, make a formal complaint now and change vets making sure you tell them you are never coming back and why. I'd also be tempted to contact the dog papers! but check with the RCVS first if this would be a problem if it is done whilst your complaint is dealt with.

Just had another thought -maybe also check with Trevor Cooper the dog solicitor where you stand? He has a phone helpline.
http://www.doglaw.co.uk

RCVS will certainly be next port of call.

I can understand a vet can make a mistake and not hold that against them, they are only human afterall, but what cannot be forgiven is that they seem so busy trying to make sure they do not admit any liability that they are forgetting to say a simple sorry.

They should be sorry for the physical and mental well being of the animal which has been damaged by their mistake and sorry for the distress and worry caused to us, cos after all, as customers, its us that keep them all in jobs.

> Just had another thought -maybe also check with Trevor Cooper the dog solicitor where you stand? He has a phone helpline.
> [url=http://www.doglaw.co.uk" rel=nofollow]http://www.doglaw.co.uk[/url]

You star lady!  We have checked yellow pages and been looking on internet to find a specialist with no joy. We gare oing to the link and will try contacting them today.

one puppy you can forgive bein missed but two!?  Well thats awful.

I wish you all the best with this case.  I'm sure for you it isn't about the money at all but it is about the animals.  What the vets SHOULD be about...

I have just realised that this second pup has been delivered more than 10 days after the rest of the litter.   In my experience, your girl could be in serious danger of an infection - we nearly lost Purdey when she had retained a dead puppy for four days - and an emergency spay had to be carried out.

Personally, I would be getting recommendations of a veterinary practice local to you that others recommend - and I would be taking her there, pdq - obviously explaining the situation at the same time.   She needs urgent attention - you could lose her!

> Appreciate the decision your parents had to make and it just goes to show the impact of a sincere apology from an obviously caring vet.

absolutely. devestating as it was we understand mistakes can happen. in honesty nothing my family could have done would have made the poor man feel worse, he adored Cassie. it was the acknowledgement of the mistake and the genuine wish to try and make things as right as possible.

> it was the acknowledgement of the mistake and the genuine wish to try and make things as right as possible.

Don't know whether you have read my new post but Roo had another dead puppy this morning and still no acknowledgement from the vet that any mistake was made.

If only all vets were like the one your parents had.

Finding a new vet is obviously next on my agenda.