.....and how long can all this go on with this inept government - most of which are jumping ship on an hourly basis?!

If it wasn't to serious it would be funny! :(  You couldn't make it up, could you?

You couldn't... its an absolute shambles.
I can't understand why Brown is putting himself, and us, through it!

Rats jumping a sinking ship springs to mind.............. leaving the captain (Gordon Brown) to go down with it.
But at our expense

What I REALLY can't understand Carla, is that some people are actually thinking of voting them in again!  I'm not sure that the others will be much better but ................

Time for a change me thinks. I don't see it could be any worse, may stay the same but think its time for something new to come about..

I want proportional representation to get away from the old, tired two party system and hopefully make every vote count.

I just wish that I'd written down all the b*lls ups down because I can't remember how many times I've thought "I can't believe that they've actually done that!" 
I do remember how they wasted money on the Millenium Dome and then sold it for 1p.  I can remember them taking us to a war that should never have been started.  I can remember them abolishing the 10p rate of income tax to hit those who earn the least.  I do remember them selling the countries gold (family silver!) and that we've got more debts than we should have............

Heaven knows but it is a shambles. 

I feel exhausted by their failures. Roll on voting day tomorrow I say! Time to make our presences felt.

I think most of us champdoggers could run the country better than any MP'S  LOL !!!!!!!!! if we all got together LOL !!!! The fiddling of expenses is terrible and I am glad they have all been found out, that will make Joe public think about who, or if, to vote for at the next election.

Hear,hear.One giant champdog,i'll vote for us! :)

The quandary is who to vote for?  I'm going to vote tomorrow but very undecided, the problem is that I not want to waste the chance to vote but then who else is their to trust?  If I don't vote then I cannot complain about who governs us in the EU or nationally.  Hmmmmm................ what's the compromise and should their even be one?

im to at a loss at who to vote for i may after reading this thread go and write on my ballot paper CHAMP DOGS IN!,  CHEATING DOGS OUT :-)

Well to be honest I'm getting fed up with it, fed up of looking at the news and seeing these men in suites in the commons taking it in turn to point score and pull each other down, what's the point in it? I wish they would all gather up their briefcases, stop sniping and having a go at each other, stop wasting time and get back behind their desks and do some blooming work!!!!

At least bun fights on CD are done in our own time :-D This lot are getting paid for it. Can we have some work please!

> What I REALLY can't understand Carla, is that some people are actually thinking of voting them in again

I have cancelled my membership to the party I have always supported, not voting for them will not be enough!!

Bilbo, d'ya know what makes me really sad?  My Father is 88 years old and has always supported the labour party all of his life from the days when they were truly needed to support 'the workers'.  But when they have lost the vote of stalwart supports like him, then they do have big problems. :(

There is a growing list..... of both young and old.:-(

> Time to make our presences felt.

Do you think that will happen though? I think a lot of people are very disillusioned with the govt & it's mp's at the moment that many either don't want to vote (all as bad as each other thought) or don't know who to vote for, esp as the elections are local or european where lets be honest the general public don't see much of what they actually do.

I have already voted (postal) & have gone the way I always have done & probably always will do, I don't think as a northern girl I could ever vote blue & certainly not while there's a chance slimy Mr Cameron would lead the country.  Sticking my neck on the line I'm sure but...I actually like Gordon Brown & think he has had a very very tough time since he took over most of which is nothing he can control.  The financial crisis is global so no way we were not going to be affected & the recent expenses scandal is based on a system that has been in place for many many years - hardly Mr Brown's fault certain people have been abusing it.  All the events that are going to be in the forefront of everyone's mind 2moro IF they vote are not Labour's fault.  I conceed that some things could have been handled better but with hindsight anyone can say that.

I'll step off my soap box now... ;)

They stopped being the Labour party when they added New to the title.That seemed to give them carte blanche to get rid of the old ideals and shift way to the right.Now the right seem more to the left,but it's all phoney to get peoples vote.As soon as they're in they do as they like.Can you imagine fiddling your expenses and still being in a job?Glenda Jackson has always been a genuine person but she doesn't get a look in when the big jobs are handed out.I'd like to see her as p m.

I am available for the position of benevolent dictator and no need to worry about voting

The city i live in has been Labour for a while now, but i live just outside this voting area and come under the more rural areas which are always Conservative.
I must admit i've always voted for Labour, but felt the country is in need of a change and voted elsewhere this year, but who will remain a secret...

I agree with a lot of what you've said there gembo, so you're not the only one.

The conservatives don't sound like they are trying to stabilise the government and help the country, to me they're just shaking it up more for their own benefit.

I can't stand Gordon Brown. He doesn't isten, can't address more than one thing at once, is an embarrassment, not up to the job and makes us look like idiots. He is an unelected PM, who got the job by making it impossible for Blair to stay, and is now hanging on stil carping on about running the country whilst his govt collapses and everyone laughs at him - when they are not crying over their P45's. As for the rest of the cabinet - they're as bad, porn films and tax dodging and visiting constituants in bullet proof vests whist claiming they are tackling crime - they are an embarrassment.

I quite like Cameron. He's a nice bloke, he can be awesome at PMQ's, he's got good strong familly values and he is dragging the tories back from where they were once considered as finished.

> He is an unelected PM

strictly speaking none of our PMs are ever elected by us as PMs.  The PM is only elected by their party.

I don't think Brown is a very good PM and Labour could do much better.  The Tories are up to much either, their MPs are just as bad with the expenses.  Problem is who do you vote for, personally I could not vote for any of the fringe parties, IMO the BNP should be banned, UKIP MEPs are worse than our MPs, one of them has been found guilty of fraud another is awaiting trial.  So I'm going to stick with my usual party.

> IMO the BNP should be banned,

Can I ask why you say this? The one thing I'm proud of with regards Great Britain is the freedom we have & that pretty much anyone can form a party or stand for election.  I agree with you that some of the old school BNP's ideas were extreme but in more recent times they have gained a lot more favour with people as they have toned down what they stand for.  I was suprised to find a BNP leaflet pushed through my door, I gave it due consideration was quite surprised at what I read. 

That's the good thing about our voting system, you can vote for who you like.  Although I do think proportional representation would give the 'other parties' a better chance.  I've often felt that voting for anyone other than the main two is a wasted vote.

> So I'm going to stick with my usual party.

Lib Dems by any chance?

> I agree with you that some of the old school BNP's ideas were extreme but in more recent times they have gained a lot more favour with people as they have toned down what they stand for

I think you're wrong - they just don't publicise their true beliefs the way they used to. They haven't changed.

No, but when folk voted Labour they knew they were voting for Labour and Tony Blair would be PM - when he went they should have gone to the polls, not just stuck another bloke in.

but they all do it, the Tories did it with John Major, Labour did it with Callaghan.  Unless we move to an American stlye of leader ie voting for the president and vice president it will happen again.

The PM in this country has no more power than any other minister, they are simply the leader of their party.

> > I agree with you that some of the old school BNP's ideas were extreme but in more recent times they have gained a lot more favour with people as they have toned down what they stand for

>I think you're wrong - they just don't publicise their true beliefs the way they used to. They haven't changed.

I agree and think they should be banned because they promote racial (mainly) hatred which is against the law.  Some quotes from their leader:

"Not all immigrants are terrorists but all terrorists are immigrants or their immediate descendants."
"Islam is a vicious wicked faith"
There was also something recently about him saying "there is no such thing as a British Asian"

The thought that a party such as the BNP could get any sort of power appalls me

Shadbolts, have you seen any of the Christian parties leaflets?  Some of them are also truly shocking, very extreme views - and that's coming from someone who was raised in a Christian family.

What ones are you thinking about?  I personally would be very dubious about voting for any party that held fundemental views on any religion.  I think (as a Christian) that religions (of any type) should be involved in politics as a social conscience but some of the views held especially by fundementalist Christian and Islamic groups probably rival those of the BNP.

Any party or organisation that promotes religious, gender, or racial intolerance or hatred should not be allowed to stand for office.

Absolutely agree with you - there is freedom of speech (which thankfully this country allows) but there is also abuse of the system (and we have recently seen how blatantly the MP's have been abusing the expenses system).  Any party that incites hatred should most certainly not be allowed to stand for office.  Can't remember the name of the party in particular but they were most certainly inciting hatred agains homosexuals - a work collegue was in tears of frustration when it arrived through his door.

>The PM in this country has no more power than any other minister, they are simply the leader of their party.

Yes, but when Bliar stood down the deputy leader should automatically have become PM - that's the role of a deputy! Failing that (and I think it would have meant Two-Jags being PM ) there should have been an election within the labour party, with the runner-up being the deputy leader.

People should only vote for the person who they think will best represent their interests in their constituency, regardless of who is the leader of the party. To vote on the basis of who'd be PM is voting in the US style.

Gordon Brown. He doesn't isten, can't address more than one thing at once, is an embarrassment, not up to the job and makes us look like idiots. He is an unelected PM, who got the job by making it impossible for Blair to stay, and is now hanging on stil carping on about running the country whilst his govt collapses and everyone laughs at him - when they are not crying over their P45's. As for the rest of the cabinet - they're as bad, porn films and tax dodging and visiting constituants in bullet proof vests whist claiming they are tackling crime - they are an embarrassment

Way To Go Carla!!! you some it up so Nicely :-)

It is against the law to incite racial hatred hence BNP have toned down their public profile.  This organisation leafleted at my train station last week: http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/?page=home and there are many others out there. 

However, I do agree that no one should be denied their freedom of speech and that's what make us a democracy - other than those groups who are proscribed {{rolleyes}}.

Well I've been to vote and laughed all the way through it!
For the local vote, I only had a choice of Conservative or LibDem. Labour obviously saved their deposit!
But for the EU..... the voting paper must have been a yard long! I did read through all the names to convince myself that I was voting for the right party, but have to say that I hadn't heard of most of them, nor had I received any bumf through my letterbox, so how did they expect me to consider them, especially the independent lady at the end? She may be great and just the person that we need to represent us but how would I know??
Just a joke! :(

Our european ballot paper was like a length of loo roll, we had 15 parties standing, had bumf off 7 inc the usual main parties but who on earth are 'Jury Party' and 'Animals Count' how on earth do they expect a vote when the first you know of them is on the ballot sheet!
Chris

who knows but i like the sound of 'Animals Count' , its geting more like a sweep stake at the grand national than an election (((((eyesrolling)))))

Done a quick google and it seems like they are just in my area, seems like a bit of a lame duck party really........ :-D
http://www.animalscount.org/elections.html

opps not looking to good for Brown again is it ! and on election day to,,,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/gordon-brown/5447388/James-Purnell-the-Work-and-Pensions-Secretary-dramatically-quits-the-Cabinet.html

> Our european ballot paper was like a length of loo roll, we had 15 parties standing

We had 19 on ours

Trouble is with all the politicians - the ideals that drove them (if they had any) in the first place to get into politics get lost on the way.  Party politics means that they have to toe the party line and start being dishonest with themselves.  I look at them all and wonder why they want to achieve these positions of power.  Their reality of the world becomes altered - (so when they have expenses they see it as their right to claim -it is a perk of the job.  How many people given the same situation would do the same?)  I am very cynical about people who get to these positions of power - how many of them actually keep their 'feet on the ground'  Only independants are free to express their real opinions - and they don't often get anywhere. 

> I think you're wrong - they just don't publicise their true beliefs the way they used to. They haven't changed

I agree with you there jeangenie.Hitler came to power during this kind of social and political unrest in Germany.

shadbolts  
I agree and think they should be banned because they promote racial (mainly) hatred which is against the law.  Some quotes from their leader:

"Not all immigrants are terrorists but all terrorists are immigrants or their immediate descendants."
"Islam is a vicious wicked faith"
There was also something recently about him saying "there is no such thing as a British Asian"

The thought that a party such as the BNP could get any sort of power appalls me

totally agree with your last comment, as i hate the BNP.

but i dont see why they should be banned.
also, legally speaking i dont think any of those quotes qualify asm "racial hatred", albeit unpleasant.
im inlinced to be sympathetic to the islam statement

All fanaticism is dangerous,but far more so when driven underground.

> Well to be honest I'm getting fed up with it, fed up of looking at the news and seeing these men in suites in the commons taking it in turn to point score and pull each other down, what's the point in it? I wish they would all gather up their briefcases, stop sniping and having a go at each other, stop wasting time and get back behind their desks and do some blooming work!!!!
>
> At least bun fights on CD are done in our own time :-D This lot are getting paid for it. Can we have some work please!

Well said! It makes me sick listening to anything from parliament who ever is in power because it sounds to me like my grand-childrens playschool at break time!
To give Gordon Brown his due he did when he first became PM try to get things changed so that the parties worked together instead of point scoring off each other, but the opposition parties and some labour MPs were against it.

Labour also brought in freedom of information which has resulted in us all finding out just how much we are being fleeced by all MPS. The current expenses system was brought in by Margaret Thatchers government and look how they ended their time in power. If the PM can't trust his ministers then perhaps neither should we? I don't think we can trust any of them at all and serious changes need to be made.

Proportional representation, the parties working together to bring about the best for the country, reform of expenses, no employing family members, and I am sure you can all think of other improvements.

Where I live we had the choice between voting Conservative or UKIP mmmmm........ not much of a choice however the European parliament we had so many to vote for it was absolutely impossible to work out who to vote for in the time we were in the polling station unless we had been there since dawn since we did not receive any party information what so ever! I did notice I could vote The God Party, the Romans, The Democracy party, and the BNP among others. The only four I can remember apart from the main parties, and the green party. Maybe we should have voted for anyone other than a main party to show our disgust?

MPs voted to change their own expenses system not the Conservatives alone.  It was voted on in the House of Commons so they are all to blame not just one party.

I meant the whole government but Margaret Thatcher was the PM then so as you can see by picking up on my comment which was not well worded you can see how everyone is blaming Gordon Brown for failures which are really down to all MPs.

Did anybody see Sir Alan Sugar on the news programme this morning? He was saying that we are all being led by the media who are stirring up a lot of trouble these days..... We only have to think back the PDE programme to see how things can be presented to us which we know to be questionable by the media. Perhaps Alan Sugar has a point? Are we all led by the media? Do we simply repeat what the media tell us to believe?

Are we being overly influenced? Should we do more to investigate media claims ourselves?

Unfortunately,this time  the media in the shape of the Guardian did us all a favour in revealing the outrageously huge honeypot that is m p's expenses.I wish it was all made up,but it's not.There wouldn't be such a rush of cheque signing to pay back what has been erroneously claimed if it wasn't true.Michael Martin has a lot to answer for,insisting that the expense claims be kept secret-I mean,how dare he-that's public money.He was well aware of what was going on.Gordon Brown's biggest failing there was to trust the integity of the office of Speaker.I beleive that Gordon Brown is a good man,but he's come to the job too late,the rot was already well advanced thanks to Blair(and I'm a life long Labour voter who jumped for joy when they got in,in '97).If he hadn't given up his leadership chance to phoney Tony I think we would be in a better position at home and in the World now.