I bred a super litter of gsd's a few weeks ago and they all went off to new homes just over 2 weeks ago. This afternoon the owner of one of my puppies rang me quite distraught as she had taken pup to a gsd training club for the second time just to sit with her on her lap to get used to everything till she is old enough to join in and a few of the people there told her that pup was not a gsd!!.My owner told them that although she did not see dad(I do not own him) she had photos of him and had of course seen mom,she even described them telling them that both parents are black and tan and long coats.Well one stupid woman even told her that she could not possibly be a gsd as she is jet black and 2 b&t's cant have black puppies! Well they can if they carry the recessive gene for black. I've told my owner I will go with her next week and deal with these malicious morons My poor owner was so upset but bless her she stood up to the mob and is determined to keep going back till they have no choice but to apoligise to her. Spare me from ignorant people who think the are experts when they dont know their head from their elbow!!

There are some strange people about,that's for sure.Normally i would say that they are not worth bothering about,but as breeding gsd pups is your passion and your livelihood,what they are doing is undermining your knowledge and experience.Put a notice up in the training place saying that anyone who casts doubt on the quality of your pups will be sued for defamation.

> Spare me from ignorant people who think the are experts when they dont know their head from their elbow!!

Really try to ignore these stupid comments, there are always going to be people around that know more about your dogs then you do! I remember taking Buster (Mastiff) to the vets when he was a pup (about 15kgs) and I had somebody trying to tell me he was a staffie puppy!!!!! These people are everywhere, you have to learn to ignore them for your own sanity.

I would be very worried if a GSD club doesn't know B&T's can have Blacks.

Although as you will know, is there such a thing a a blue GSD?

From the GSD (Aslation) standard on colour

Black or black saddle with tan, or gold to light grey markings. All black, all grey, with lighter or brown markings referred to as Sables. Nose black. Light markings on chest or very pale colour on inside of legs permissible but undesirable, as are whitish nails, red-tipped tails or wishy-washy faded colours defined as lacking in pigmentation. Blues, livers, albinos, whites (i.e. almost pure white dogs with black noses) and near whites highly undesirable.  Undercoat, except in all black dogs, usually grey or fawn. Colour in itself is of secondary importance having no effect on character or fitness for work. Final colour of a young dog only ascertained when outer coat has developed.

> Although as you will know, is there such a thing a a blue GSD

Hi thanks for all your comments and yes there is a blue gsd,its actually a dilute and is a recessive gene as are the livers. Good idea about putting a notice up at the club, probably a better idea than slapping the stupid woman clean into next week!!
I'm going to try to get my owner to change clubs although she says the trainers seem very nice and give one on one training. She wants to try competion obedience and I think this little girl will do well with the right training,she already moves lovely and although I'm biased I dont think there is a better sight than a gsd flowing round a ring of heel work.

Have to say also..I do not know GSD's but do know of a friend who had a beautiful nearly all black puppy, but as he grew so did the tan markings and he is now a lovely B&T....with enough black to make him a stunning dog.
My wee dog isn't a GSD however he is marked like one and several folk have asked is he a GSD puppy.......he was nearly black with just a little tan on his feet, belly and face.....the black receded as he grew and he now has more tan over his body....

Puppies can and do change and the GSD club should know that....:-)

I was at a summer fete yesterday with my (highly undesirable!) white GSD and a man asked me what he was crossed with.
(OK OK I know what some people think of whites, but he was a rescue and I wasn't going to not take him cos of his colour)
He refused to believe he was a GSD, even after I explained to him. Irritating man....like I don't know my own dog....and I can't read his pedigree certificate....?
Good that you are going next week to put them right....I would be furious too!

You were very lucky to get a pedigree with a rescue dog - most rescues don't hand them over on the rare occassions that they get them with a dog. :)

Our Black & Gold German Import, Echo, carried black & his all black daughter, Star of Cinsyl, out of a Grey bitch(called a Sable here in the UK) won 1 CC & 1 Res CC. So if B&G GSDs cannot produce all Blacks(you can tell if new born puppies are going to be all black if they are black under the tail, if there is any colour there at all they are not black but either Black Sables/Bi-Colour/B&T/B&G) I'd love to know what breed could have produced a CC winning Black GSD look alike out of a Grey bitch ?

Interestingly he never produced a longcoat/white/blue/liver despite being used on bitches coming from lines that produced these faults(hasten to add he was never used on on a bitch with these faults) & who produced these faults in other litters or who had siblings who produced these faults

Normally i would say that they are not worth bothering about,but as breeding gsd pups is your passion and your livelihood,

Is it really? I'd hate to think anyone made a living from breeding dogs. Bad enough with puppy farmers. :(

What is wrong with being a caring breeder who does a proper job and makes sure the right people take the pups home also being able to make a living by doing so?Puppy farms are an abomination,they are nothing to do with roscoebabe(i looked at her website before posting my reply to her).I'm not talking about churning out pups,i'm talking about well organised,sensitive breeding'where the right people are involved on all levels,and i'm not talking about the kind of livelihood that gives you a villa in the sun.

> (OK OK I know what some people think of whites, but he was a rescue and I wasn't going to not take him cos of his colour)

no one thinks theres anything wrong with white GSD's, they occur naturally, its just people deliberately breeding them and spinning them as 'rare' that folk have an issue with. i'm sure yours is lovely :)

> What is wrong with being a caring breeder who does a proper job and makes sure the right people take the pups home also being able to make a living by doing so?

where did you get that breeding is roscoes livelyhood

anyway, to answer your question, in order to make enough money in breeding dogs to live off you really would need to be a puppy farmer. you would need several bitches in whelp at once and you'd need a lot of dogs, so many you would struggle to spend time with them all each day so not being particularly caring.

> Normally i would say that they are not worth bothering about,but as breeding gsd pups is your passion and your livelihood,
>

Hi and no my dogs are my passion but I do not make my living from them,I actually have to work to keep them.
I breed maybe one litter a yr and my last two litters have produced a total of 8 puppies. If I had to rely on that for a living I'd be living in a tent and begging for crumbs! lol

I thought from her website that she did it for a living.If the only people who make a living at it are dog farmers,then i'm horrified that i said anything about livelihood,i really am,and apologise to all of you who breed for the love of it.:)please forgive.

Sorry Roscoebabe:)x

it might not be impossible, i suppose if you have a large family or staff etc but if you think about the time and costs involved it would be pretty difficult and still not the best situation for the dogs involved i suspect.

i kind of read your post as about the training (only glances at roscoes site so not sure if the training was as a job or a hobby) being her livelyhood, not that you were suggesting she was puppy farming :)

Did you tell her they could have a blue puppy (Grey)even if the parents are black and tan?
The genes can come out anywhere!!

Denese

I think putting up a notice is actually pretty silly.
The owner of the puppy does think it is a good club and I think it would but them in uncomfortable situation.
Good clubs can be difficult to find and if you did do something like that, people would remember her as the lady whose puppys breeder did this. I just don't see it necessary...

If it is a member of the club causing these problems why not have a chat with them and tell them as it is.
Nobody wants to hear their well loved puppy who they adore is not the breed they are supposed to be, it is like telling somenbody their baby is ugly!
This lady probably just hit on a new owner and would not be half as bolshy being faced with somebody with knowledge questioning what they have said.

Or have a chat with the trainers as surely they understand it is important to make new members feel welcome not disheartened and feel like they need to fight over what their puppy is.
It is for the good of the breed to keep these new owners attending training and have well trained dogs so the trainers should be able to see why they might have to have a little chat with this lady...

There must be a article/book or something about colour genetics in GSDs, maybe give this to the lady who has said about B&T and blacks to educate her a little...

I would pay no notice to this big mouthed woman who probably belongs to the "Only Dogs from my breeder/I have bred are perfect with no faults and are like the breed is supposed to be"-group of doggy people.

you have to laugh at some peoples Ignorance where i live i often get totally stupid people when walking my 2 EBT's telling my that my dogs are illegal and banned in this country , i should be ashamed of myself for breeding my bitch, i was told when she was preganant. twice iv been told they going to report me to the police for keeping pit bulls lol,
Bring it on i say , then go and google pit bull see if they realy think my dogs look Anything like that.
its been mostly people in my age group to and i feel really sad for them that they reach their big 40 and cant tell an EBT from a pit!
even one of our plastic poilce men has stopped me before and asked me, i just looked and laughed his buddy just shook his head and grinned with embarrassment ,
i wouldnt mind but my youngsters dad was Reserve Best Dog Crufts 2004, and mums from ch Caliber Saranove and Napier Jenny Wren so im not walking round with a pair of farm breed dogs here thought went into breeding my babys and im proud of them lol, i belive i created the BEST BULLY EVER when my baby boy was born he's a Champ to me ,ok im a lil bit biased, But His My BABY :-)
AND  ohh they soo look like pit bulls these dogs dont they?!!! :-(

just proves theirs a lot of very silly people out their, most i belive live round here,

> i kind of read your post as about the training (only glances at roscoes site so not sure if the training was as a job or a hobby)

Hi Astarte, no I have never trained dogs for a living,my love of obedience was as a competitor only.
I'm a care worker by profession ( I help people in their own homes)and we dont get paid loads of money,The only person who gets rich is my boss!
I'm going to go speak to the people at this club re the very hurtful remarks to my puppy owner.
I've printed off some literature on coat genetics and have every intention of making the one woman look extremely stupid in front of her friends.I shall have a good look at this club and if I dont like the training methods shall do my utmost to find my owner a better one.

> I'm a care worker by profession ( I help people in their own homes)and we dont get paid loads of money

and yet you should, its a demanding job both physically and emotionally

> I'm going to go speak to the people at this club re the very hurtful remarks to my puppy owner.
> I've printed off some literature on coat genetics and have every intention of making the one woman look extremely stupid in front of her friends.I shall have a good look at this club and if I dont like the training methods shall do my utmost to find my owner a better one.

good. what a silly woman, and your poor puppy buyer! they must have been so upset!

> and your poor puppy buyer! they must have been so upset!

Oh she was heartbroken,poor lady sobbed and she is a lovely lady,I asked why she did not tell me what they had said to her the first time she went and she said she did not want to bother me! Told her not to be silly,I want all my puppy owners to come to me with ANY problem they have with my puppies no matter how big or small and no matter what age the puppy is. I'm there for the whole life of any puppy I breed.

and have every intention of making the one woman look extremely stupid in front of her friends

Unfortunately if you want to get your message across ...making anyone look stupid is not a good method. The woman was obviously mistaken with her information and just like in High School....whether you are right or wrong..purposely going out to make someone look stupid only makes you look bad (and makes them and their friends angry) . And it will do the rounds of "the club" and the story will change and you could be the worse off. By all means go to the class..educate the uneducated but do it in the best way you can without trying to make anyone look stupid. If the club turns out to be half decent apart from one or two members...you do you puppy buyer a great disservice especially if any other clubs are too far from her.

Not trying to tell anyone what to do...but trying to get smart articles to see the light never works if one sets out to make anyone look stupid....

Unfortunately my dog's previous owners were killed in really sad circumstances and he was brought in to the rescue where I was working by the relatives, along with 2 other dogs and all their papers. And it was overseas, maybe that's why I got them, don't know.

The reason I made the comment about white GSDs is because he was originally from a breeder in the UK, and WAS deliberately bred.

Just wanted to clear that up (sorry to go off topic...)

I've had several people insist that my white Siberian Husky bitch is a GSD, even though she has blue eyes and the only similarity is the pointy ears! A GSD would be almost twice her size. I was also told by a trainer at a puppy training class that she must be deaf 'cos she's white with blue eyes - open a packet of crisps in my kitchen and she hears it from 70 feet up the garden, lol.

oh dear I feel sad for your puppies owner to have to listen to such rudeness and what a lovely breeder your are to go and support her. I too have a beautiful solid black gsd who has remained solid black except for a few sable hairs between his toes .When he was a pup he was usually mistaken for a Belgian . Fortunately I didn't get anyone being rude just admiring comments and hopefully you pups owner will start getting lovely comments soon too which will make her feel better.

I would say educate this lady to empower her so that she can hold her own in the face of know it all and know nothing at the same time type of people.  There are many splits in the breed, with each side thinking they know better.  :rolleyes:

I don't agree with notices and I don't agree with the breeder challenging them either; why defend when there is nothing to defend about because they are wrong! 

How about recommending some good books on GSD's to the owner, I like Fred Lantings work, Malcolm Willis too produced some good books, just a couple that come to mind.  An education on pups ancestors and explaining what desirable traits they bring to the breed today can be worth it's weight in gold to owners.  Unfortunately in GSD's, we always end up coming across a working line enthusiast or a show line enthusiast or a old Alsatian line enthusiast, etc, etc, who think that because our dogs don't look like theirs, then they are not GSD.  :rolleyes:

>Unfortunately in GSD's, we always end up coming across a working line enthusiast or a show line enthusiast or a old Alsatian line enthusiast, etc, etc, who think that because our dogs don't look like theirs, then they are not GSD.  :rolleyes:

It certainly seems to be the breed with the thickest blinkers, which is a shame. Neither extreme is good, but both have a lot to offer each other.

gsd training club for the second time just to sit with her on her lap to get used to everything till she is old enough to join in and a few of the people there told her that pup was not a gsd!!

You know if the people were just other GSD owners then they can be as ignorant about their chosen breed/pup than anyone else, owning a breed doesn't make anyone an expert on it, they often don't know their knee from their elbow. If it came from one of the GSD trainers then that is quite appauling and I would be changing clubs, I'm assuming it was from other newbie owners, in which case a good lesson from you roscoebabe will do the trick if you go with her next time. :-)

I would be mad too, as they have put doubt in the mind of the new owner, but even new owners can read about colour genetics so send her on all that information to absorb herself, deep breathe and exhale and the new owner will also have amunition now to deflate the plonkers out there. :-)

> What is wrong with being a caring breeder who does a proper job and makes sure the right people take the pups home also being able to make a living by doing so?

Simply that it isn't possible.

The man hours alone needed to care for a bitch and litter and then the follow up with new owners would make it impossible to make a living from it.

One person can only look after and properly care for so many bitches and pups, so one person could only look after say four to 6 litters in a year as a full time occupation (bitches would have to be very accommodating in when they came in season and gave birth, I had two litters at once, and it was so much more work).

The rearing health testing and various costs of rearing will take about half to two thirds of the selling price of a pup.  I would say well bred pups in the average breed are around £600, I doubt a person would even get in minimum wage, and then there are all the hidden costs of keeping the breeding stock, proving the stock in the showring and field (where appropriate) wear and tear on your accommodation,  and theirs etc.

> If the only people who make a living at it are dog farmers,then i'm horrified that i said anything about livelihood,i really am,and apologise to all of you who breed for the love of it.:)

Sadly it is a common misconception, which is why the vile puppy farmers still exist and people will still buy their pups.  A lot of the general public sort of look on breeders as a necessary evil if they want a particular breed.

For this reason when asked if I am a breeder (it happens when you walk five of one breed ;) ) I cannot just proudly say yes, I have to qualify what I mean by breeder.

To be honest what is the big deal, just laugh it off.  I wouldn't expect people at a training class to be expert in any breed unless they breed and  show or judge.

My pups at 3 months often get mistaken for GSD's gone wrong and can look most peculiar compared to what an adult looks like.

Mind you I am lucky if some people accept that my dogs are what breed I say they are as I have people tell me until they are blue in the face they are another breed entirely ;)

Perhaps the pup just doesn't look very typy at the moment.

I wouldn't expect people at a training class to be expert in any breed unless they breed and  show or judge.

As this is a specialist GSD training club, maybe they do know and are judges  ............... 

If this pup hasn't been bred from show quality stock, or from known successful obedience lines, then maybe it doesn't look like they think a GSD pup should look?  Not saying that this is the case, just looking at it from another angle...... :)

Whatever, I don't see it's the breeder's place to go in with guns blazing and cause trouble. :(

Hi roscoebabe

I've skimmed much of this thread but here's my opinion :)

Point your puppy buyers in the direction of internet links explaining coat colours or print them off for them.  All that should matter here is that they trust you to have sold them a pure bred GSD puppy, regardless of colour.

You'll be well clued up on the differences within the GSD world therefore going to a dedicated GSD club and stirring things up is ill thought action.  Any bad feeling or negative consequences stirred up will be experienced by your puppy people - why would you want to do that?  It's in their best interests to train their puppy and TBH I think it's good they've found a club/class which is breed specific as there will be a lot of knowledge and sound advice to be gained from that environment :)

It would IMO also be prudent for them to find an additional class where their pup will meet all sorts of other breeds too so that it is well socialised among smaller, larger, quieter or more bolshy dogs etc - wider socialisation opportunties are to be had from that set up :)

Take a deep breath, relax and think logically here - when you do that perhaps you'll realise that you're puppy buyers have over reacted and this will be made much worse by you doing so also.

Teri

Good points Terri , as I said I think rosecobabe seems a good supportive breeder but yes the gsd world is made up of many with different strongly held views. She knows what she has bred and what she has sold and hopefully her puppy owner will be able to ignore these people if she has confidence if her breeder and her pup.
I too as you probably realise own a gsd. He is Balck bigger that breed standard and long coat ,but I love him he is healthy I too bought him from  a very good supportive breeder who cares about her pups and he is what I wanted 2 years on and we are still very much in touch. . Showing is more difficult than with a standard but I wanted a pet, lets hope this puppy owner has all that she wanted and can ignore others views.

I think maybe you are right  with the relax etc advice alo mixing with other  breeds.

> If this pup hasn't been bred from show quality stock, or from known successful obedience lines, then maybe it doesn't look like they think a GSD pup should look?  Not saying that this is the case, just looking at it from another angle...... :-)

> As this is a specialist GSD training club, maybe they do know and are judges  ............... 
>
>

My dogs are long coats so not from "show stock" BUT they are dogs of quality and have excellent temperaments and are healthy(I would not breed if they did not pass all the health requirements) I have people who are willing to wait 12 months or more for one of my babies and one of my puppies from this litter went all the way up to Aberdeen (I live in west mids) and another has gone to East Sussex.
I have three people at the moment who are waiting for a puppy out my next litter next yr.
The people who made the nasty remarks to my puppy owner were not judges or breeders  nor the trainers,they were members of the club which is primararly for obedience. The comments to my owner were well out of order and what right do they have to upset people who simply wish to do the very best for their puppy?.
My puppies look exactly as they should look,big chunky healthy happy long coat german shepherds.
I have however calmed down since Sunday and will not go in "guns blazing" I do intend to have a chat with those responsible  and have already printed off a lot of material on coat and colour genetics to show to them.

> The people who made the nasty remarks to my puppy owner were not judges or breeders nor the trainers,they were members of the club which is primararly for obedience.

That being the case don't you think it's better to be left alone?  I'm glad you've calmed down a bit since your original post but if these people are no more educated about the breed standard than your own puppy owners, why cause further ill feeling?  Why not just give your printed data to your puppy owners and let them go on to deal with this how they think best?  You attending, however calmly, will surely make a relatively small matter into a bigger deal and it is not you who will suffer potential repercussions (not immediately at any rate) :)

The fact that your dogs are not from show stock or intended to become such and are intentionally bred away from the desired coat type in the breed standard, surely you can expect (and must have experienced before now) critiscism from anyone involved in breeding, competing or judging dogs which have been bred with the standard in mind?

That you have bred a healthy, happy, well adjusted family pet and it's owners are happy with that and your after care should be all that matters to them - presumably if your target market wanted a standard puppy with show potential they'd look elsewhere :)

regards, Teri

People do come out with some rubbish don't they! At least now your puppy owner will be able to gently educate these people, and I'm sure as the puppy grows it should be blatantly obvious he's a GSD! Personally I think black, white and black/tan GSDs are very striking, even if they aren't right for show purposes.

A funny story for you - when I bought my blenheim Cav puppy 7 years ago, his parents were both tricolours, and I took pics of him and of his parents to show all my friends and family. I got several people asking me if he was going to turn the same colour as his parents when he grew up!!! The breeder dined out on that story for a long time! :-D

Black, B & T and sable are standard colours and suitable for show.  Unfortunately, the G show bloodlines have diverged into one bloodline and one colour type - B & G which dominates the show ring.  B & T is common in the Alsatian lines. 

In all fairness, there are some very good healthy pet lines around in GSD's which we might be very glad of one day if show continue breeding into their one bloodline bottleneck.

>Colour in itself is of secondary importance having no effect on character or fitness for work.

I wish more attention was paid to that one.  One thing sadly missed in the ring these days IMO is the sables and blacks and I sincerely hope we go back to those days when more attention is paid to the GSD as a working breed first and a show dog second. 

An excellent post Teri :-)