At last! Just what we've been saying for years! Now perhaps people will start training their dogs sensibly.

News item.

Further information

Good! Just a pity they picked on Victoria Stilwell rather than Dog Borstal or most of all Cesar Millan -out of the lot VS has to be the least worrisome of the TV trainers with CM being the really dangerous one. What was described in the article was definitely his kind of work.

Finally!  

Thank heavens for that!   But perhaps before it is accepted as correct, we should see the same story running in the Sun and Mirror.   It is a pity that they have picked on Victoria Stillwell - she is the lesser of all the evils so far as I can see.

Perhaps we ought to see outtakes of Dog Borstal et al ......the ones where the dogs do not respond in a televisual manner - those that are too scared to do anything apart from run - those who respond to aggression with aggression - those with the owners who are too thick to pick their own noses..........

thanks for that link JG i was a bit shocked at this bit,
(Techniques such as pinning dogs to the floor and grabbing their jowl )

i dont watch tv myself much so have not seen many of the programes that you all speak of , and im stunned that things like the above go on,
is that really concidered a training method to some ?  and just what good does that do but scare the poor dogs?,

> is that really concidered a training method to some ?

Cesar Milan uses, amongst other things, 'alpha rolls' in which the dog is grabbed by the neck and pinned to the floor :(

Dog Borstal (from what I've seen of it), mainly uses aversives such as shouting at the dog, squirting water in it's face and rattle bottles :(

>and just what good does that do but scare the poor dogs?,

I know it is cruel to scare dogs like this, but also these things can make a dog agressive. 'Teaching' a dog by force & punishemnt, may in the first instance teach fear, but the bigger picture is that the dog learns force & 'punishment' (agression/biting/growling) is how to get what one wants, a very dangerous situation.

Why, oh why, can't sombeody produce a programme with reward based training and go into the reasons why it's better. I'd much rather have my huge dog learn that being calm & patient gets things done than being a bully. He knows that if he wants me to get him a treat he only has to sit nicely by the treat cubboard, if I had bullied him/'alpha rolled' him to make him obey, I wonder how he would tell me he wants a treat?

ETA, with these programmes in mind, I now feel like I may be told off for allowing my dog to tell me he wants a treat

ETA to put the '>' in to show quotation.

Oh dear - I play with my dogs and often pin them to the floor and roll them over lol!!! And they love the rough play.  I think many people would say I was cruel, until they saw how much my dogs actually enjoyed the rough-housing.  I've thrown a cup of water once and it worked, not frightening him in the least as you could see the gears in his head working.  I just got glared at as he doesn't like to get wet :-)

An interesting report.

I'm actually a fan of Dog Borstal & Its me or the dog. I like some of their techniques and have used them with my dog.

Dont get me started on ceasar millan though :-(

ETA, with these programmes in mind, I now feel like I may be told off for allowing my dog to tell me he wants a treat

My dogs tell me when it's dinner time, when it's pee/poo time and also when it's bed time.  It's called communication ;-)

well the water thing wouldnt work with mine he loves water lol,
my boy will grab a toy and start showing off tossing it to me to get my attention if i ignore him (say if im doing dinner) then he runs in the garden and starts tossing his toy around till it normaly ends up in nxt doors garden lol, the bullys have their  dubie flurky moments with each other (lots of spinning and fast running from one corner of the garden to another) but once i lift the lid off their treat jar its all over their at my side waiting for their treat my little ones so funny he's always the first to hear the jag lid coming off ands in the door like a shot sits and holds his paw at me lol blooming show off ;-)

ok i just googled that ceasar millan as i had no idea who your all on about, now iv seen who you mean and have seen the show while flicking thu channels got to say iv never stuck around to watch, as it reminds me of them sixth sense programes that come on load of rubbish,

Oh dear - I play with my dogs and often pin them to the floor and roll them over lol!!

That's PLAY -not punishment MEANT as punishment, where the dog most definitely does NOT enjoy it.

> I like some of their techniques and have used them with my dog.
>

The problem is that, allthough some of the techniques may be OK for some dogs (ie, not frighten them, or make them defensive) not every dog is the same.

Take the water-squirting, a dog can find it fun, frightening, threatening, on a par with 'no' or not care less. That's 5 different feelings there, 2 of those feelings (fear & threatening) can result in the dog becoming agressive, 1 of those feelings (fun) can encourage the behaviour that you are trying to extinguish, 1 of those feelings will not have any effect, which leaves a 20% chance the dog will interpret the squirt as a 'no'.
So why use a method that has a 20% chance of encouraging the behaviour and an 80% chance of not working, (50% of which can making the dog agressive), when a simple 'no' can be used if reward based training alone is not working?
The same can apply to the rattle-bottle or any aversive.
The additional problems are the possibility of the dog associating the aversive with something other than the undesired behaviour and the potential for lack of trust for the owner. If your dog doesn't trust you it is not going to be as happy, responsive and reliable as a dog that does trust you.

ETA that should be 'and an 80% chance of not working' for the right reasons - of course threatening and frightening your dog may make it do what you want, but it's cruel and unnecesasry way of teaching :(

Sadly think CM and his team have a good organisation that doesn't help people to sue them etc!!  From some of the things I've heard his training techniques are rather worrying, though most people seem to think he's a GOD.

>I play with my dogs and often pin them to the floor and roll them over lol!!! And they love the rough play.

Ah, but are you angry and shouting "No, no no, you bad dog!" whilst doing it? Or are you laughing and play-bowing and dodging and saying "Oh I'll get you, yes I will!" Dogs aren't silly, and can tell the difference in your mood.

Willis rolls me over and pins me to the floor so I hope he reads this article, its entirely un-necessary behaviour lol

Ah, Willis - he's got a teensy twin here with MadAss :-D   I was roughhousing with the monster man last night and yep, he had me well and truly pinned and was frantically 'grooming' my hair and slobbering on it (devoured yet another stud earring in the process )

Gonna make him read this thread too :-p

Hi JG,

could read the first link but can't access the uni one :(

I'm glad that this has gotten wider coverage - as you say, we've been trying to get the message across for years now.  I think VS started off being too focused on her tv career but subsequent series she's been involved in have shown a better side of dog training.  As for Dog Borstal and CM however, there's many a household endangering turning a boisterous juvenile into a time bomb :(

Let's hope some of the 'red tops' give coverage to this too.

The same can apply to the rattle-bottle or any aversive.

Very, very true. As an example at a recent training class a lady with a dog (can't remember the breed now) suddenly JUMPED in front of her dog that was handled by her daughter and shook a Coke can with pebbles at the dog. I was standing right next to her dog with a tiny papillon and my dog jumped in the air by the surprise -how was she to know it wasn't aimed at her? The dog it was aimed at wasn't bothered at all, clearly used to it -nor did it pay any attention. Now my Pap is rock steady and it didn't bother her, she jumped at the surprise of it and then figured oh well, it's okay -but had it been one of my sensitive Malinois pups there could have been some serious damage done. I felt like taking the can off the woman and shaking it at her! :(

Of course JG, I just need to wiggle my nose or frown from the other end of the room to end up with a slobbery toy thrown at me (their aim gets frighteningly better every time).  However, there was one incident whereby one of the dogs was pushed away (trying to take the toy away or something similarly noisey).  We've got laminate floor so he slid quite easily - this has turned in to his favourite game.  He slides himself now and ducks under the coffee table.

The main problem is that, like fad diets, people will look at ONE method and follow it to the letter, whether it is right for them and their dog or not, then they'll find it doesn't work and follow another one and then another one (very much like dieters).  I have personally cherry picked several different principles over the years, at different times in the dogs lives.  The ignoring principle worked like a dream during their adolescence as it gave them one less thing (namely me) to fight over.  The cup of water, only 1, worked a charm even though I got the glare of death afterwards.  People are getting worse at communication (unless it's by text or email which generally doesn't work with dogs), we are less in tune with our children and our animals - if we were more in tune with the dogs we'd be able to figure out what works and what doesn't work with our dogs.  I know that one of mine is toy orientated whereas the other is food orientated.

> People are getting worse at communication (unless it's by text or email which generally doesn't work with dogs),

LOL, that's why Buster doesn't come when I call him!! - he must need a top-up for his mobile ;)

I'm scared to leave the laptop on with the dogs around - goodness knows what they'd buy.

> but had it been one of my sensitive Malinois pups there could have been some serious damage done. I felt like taking the can off the woman and shaking it at her! :-(

I would not like that to happen to Buster either you just don't know if it's going to cause the guarding instinct/major fear response to surface in the presence of anything that they experienced when the rattle startled them,  I bet you were mad.
Grrr, people don't think do they, they just see these things on TV and do it thierselfs, no consideration for anything going wrong because they've only seen it portrayed as a 100% cure-all :(

> I'm scared to leave the laptop on with the dogs around - goodness knows what they'd buy.

LOL!!!! :-D

But then people are of the attitude that a dog is a dog - they don't understand that every breed is different, every breed has it's quirks.  That's why some breeds suit some people but not others - it goes back to that MEMEME attitude.

I'm so glad about this. the making sure your dog doesn't go through the door first etc. etc. is just a pain and i can see now that it causes more stress for the dog that spoils it's relationship with it's "owners".Until i joined this forum i thought i could pick up some training tips from CM.I'm so ashamed to say that i tried the pinning down one'it was awful.We both ended up exhausted and i felt like some of the trust she had for me was gone.I want her to obey me through devotion,certainly not fear.I never watch CM now,and i think the kicking dogs in the side that he advocates is horrible.

My Son & his OH came last night to "borrow" a patio table we, 2 dogs, OH, 2 kids and me all ended up in the garden cleaning all the algae and moss off with the hose and all ended up soaking wet. The dogs loved it squirting them and us with water. Water would be no deterrant here either.

> to "borrow" a patio table

I know exactly what you mean by the inverted commas-I'm still waiting to get my dining room chairs back from my girl who"borrowed" them at Christmastime.Hey Ho!

Good! Just a pity they picked on Victoria Stilwell rather than Dog Borstal or most of all Cesar Millan -out of the lot VS has to be the least worrisome of the TV trainers with CM being the really dangerous one. What was described in the article was definitely his kind of work

Exactly Marianne, we think the same. VS is actually really good now and she speaks out a lot against dominance, shock collars etc so why the heck she's been lumped together with the likes of the awful DB and CM heaven only knows - I feel sorry for her frankly, having to defend herself after she speaks out against such punitive regimes.

I'm lucky enough to have access to this paper but haven't the time to read it yet as I'm revising for exams! LOL.

Lindsay
x

I just watched 2 episodes of It's Me or the Dog USA and I have never heard such a lot of sense spoken on a TV dog training programme! I have always thought she was ok but I would say she has improved even more

Grr!

That is seriously naughty of them to imply that Victoria uses such methods when she does not - the first US based series of IMOTD is showing on sky1 every weekday and its gone to 1 hour long, and honestly... its brilliant!

Loads of rewards, loads of common sense, no shock collars spray collars prong collars...

What a shame that article didnt dare actually name those who DO use such evil methods!

I totally agree that its very unfair that Victoria Stilwell has been named,I think she deserves an apology from the Sunday Express,she is by far the best trainer on TV. Everybody knows who the most dangerous "trainer" is and he has got off scot free.By the way did anybody see the advert underneath the article for e collars?!

In the Telegraph article about it, she was named as being a trainer who disapproved of such methods.

There was a bit on The One show too (at least I think it was the One Show) and it was Robert from Dog Borstal that was on there defending his methods.

Victoria Stillwell has a gentler way about her.It's so unfair of any paper to make her the focus of negative reporting.Good for the telegraph for being fair to her.

> Victoria Stillwell has a gentler way about her.It's so unfair of any paper to make her the focus of negative reporting

Problem is if you live by the sword you die by the sword....courting publicity with the Madam Whiplash pesona has made her stick in people's minds, and that includes journalists.
When asked to write an article on 'dominating dogs' who do you think your average hack will think of? The writer probably doesn't even own a dog but will surely have remembered the tight leather outfit.

Shame then since the series showing on Sky1 now she has a much less 'dominatrix' look!

In any case, no matter what the 'look' I think its particularly harsh given she is so passionate about positive dog trianing and trying to get the message out there that training using domination, pain, punishment etc is cruel and not necessary!

Perhaps she ought to make a statement saying she has CHANGED her mind about training methods. She's definitely better now but if you cast your mind back to the first series we had banging saucepan lids, a hooter, pretending to eat the dog's food etc.

She has actually stated that.... on this thread here....

http://www.victoriastilwell.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3477&sid=62733affcd5fa96dcfe044bbc2291c4d

when the question was brought up fairly recently.

Thanks for that! :)

Usually when I read a trainer or behaviourists biography it includes a phrase something along the lines "I've owned many dogs", Or "Having owned" ;)

What has the number of dogs a behaviourist or trainer has owned/does own got to do wtih a/ their choice of methods and b/ the media unfairly implying they use methods they are infact completely against?

Nothing if you'd be happy to use a behaviourist who'd never owned a dog.

Most people would think living with dogs would give you a valuable insight in to how they work with in the human environment.

> Nothing if you'd be happy to use a behaviourist who'd never owned a dog

Very true - it's often mentioned on here that members of a certain franchise of behaviourists are trained to the extent of a 6 week crash course (an expensive one at that!) and never having had access to a family pet never mind responsibility for one :(

I would think most people seeking advice on any subject would rather do so from someone with hands on experience ...

I believe she has fostered and worked with more dogs than i'd imagine you have ever owned. She currently owns a chocolate labrador at the moment.
Living with hdogs doesn't make you a good dog trainer, other wise CM would be great at it!

Since you don't know me you could never imagine how many dogs I work with, have fostered or owned :)

Living with dogs doesn't make you a good trainer, I agree, it does how ever give you the edge over somebody who hasn't.

How successful TV trainers are has more to do with how efficient there publicist is then their dog training skills.

How successful TV trainers are has more to do with how efficient there publicist is then their dog training skills.

Very true! There are many great ones we'll never see on TV that know ten times as much as the TV trainers.

> Nothing if you'd be happy to use a behaviourist who'd never owned a dog.

It actually wouldnt bother me.

On a slightly different topic Supernanny Jo Frost does wonderful work reforming children who are badly behaved. She has worked in childcare but doesnt have any children herself. Doesnt mean she isnt fantastic at what she does. Same as a behaviourist.

I still say living 24/7 with children/dogs could give a deeper insight then any training course.

I don't believe that some one could have depth of experience with out living with dogs.

Victoria does own a dog, as mentioned a chocolate labrador called Sadie.

Prior to that shes worked with dogs for over ten years.

I would let her handle and work with my dogs, whereas I would not in  a million YEARS let certain TV dog trainers go within 100 yards of them (and i dont just refer to american tv dog trainers here either theres at least four UK based ones that id include in that).

Still not quite seeing the relevance however, whether Victoria has owned 0 dogs or 100 dogs, the point is the article is claiming quite rightly that some tv trainers/dog training shows are using outdated and cruel methods and tools and that this is dangerous, and quite WRONGLY implying that Victoria is one of those who does that, when she is passionately against such things.

Shame that particular paper didnt have the balls to name the likes of Robert Alleyne, Mic Martin, Cesar Milan.... who all DO use aversives and dominance based training.