I took Teddy round to my friend's place today to meet her 16wk old westie and it was not ideal.  Their immediate mtng was westie biting Teddy (he's a shih-tzu) so we took them out straightaway to the park ie neutral territory.  Again, westie nipped him a few times, Teddy just laid back and looked worried.  By this point i was getting stressed as my pal was relaxed about it all and wanted to leave them to it; she let westie off the lead etc and i just ended up holding Teddy as wasn't sure how to play it.  We ended up swapping time off their respective leads so they could both have a run about without any aggro.

Then we went back to her place and i wanted them separated to avoid world war III.  However after a while we gave it another shot and this time, westie bounded onto Teddy without nipping just quite boisterous, but Teddy started nashing at him and generally freaking, with snarls/yaps obviously meaning to get him off (put it this way if he'd been a stronger dog he would've done some damage).

Anyway my pal was quite relaxed and reckoned we should just let them get on with it.....but i couldn't bear it as Ted was looking v stressed by this time and every occasion ended up the same.  Teddy would run off to get the ball, westie would bound on top of him and Ted would start going mad, clearly out of fear.
Didn't help matters that my pal suggested we feed them together and yet she had different food to Ted and i didn't want another diarrhoea situation....then i said "he's really tired too" and she thought it was ridiculous that i was treating him like a baby not a dog.

I found their mtng all quite distressing but like i said my friend thought we should just let them thrash it out.  Am now worried Teddy's gona react like this to other dogs etc.  My friend has never had any probs with her westie before and he is a sweet dog.  Found myself feeling over-protective and totally out of control, as ultimately ended up carrying him round like a baby! 

On the other hand she leaves her dog on his own a lot and so prob doesn't know him as well as i know Teddy.  Anyway would love some advice, ie is this normal behaviour for 2 boy pups and did i do the right things?

Thanks

This is why folks on here never recommend getting two puppies very close in age. The temperaments of these two breeds are poles apart & TBH socialization is better done with calm adult dogs that are used to puppies, with gentle puppies of similar breed character or in the controlled environs of a dog training club(not vet's puppy parties wich can be very stressful for the smallest puppies taking part)

My puppy Cavalier is at home with bigger dogs because he lives with older dogs & has been to training club & introduced to very puppy friendly bigger dogs. Cavaliers are a very outgoing gentle breed anyway & all I have done is built on his natural character.

Shih Tzus can be quite "aloof"with other dogs & so introducing the to other breeds has to be done carefully.

LOL having just said Cavaliers are gently, Roodee, does have his mad moments with Wukee(18 mths BC) playing tuggy & chase me/chase you, wrestling with Loukar(7 yrs old Cavalier) & chasing, being chased by & wrestling with Reg(2 year old cat !!)

Interesting Moonmaiden. 

Thinking about it, it was very much like two completely opposing animals coming together yesterday and was never going to work in that environment. 
I have learnt a lot from it - not least of all you are at the mercy of the owner and their knowledge and experience.  Different attitudes to dog ownership can make things tricky and it's so important at puppy stage to introduce different experiences properly, i am aware of that now.

I am precious with Teddy at the moment because i am determind to have a happy dog that is a valuable part of the family and am realising it's down to me to make that happen.  His natural temperament is adorable, being very laid back.  However a cavalier (don't mean the breed here!) attitude towards owning a dog means the margin for error is going to be bigger for all concerned.  My pal really believed that letting them get on with it was sensible and i got really stressed by it coz felt it was the last thing we should do.

We are off to our first puppy socialisation class tonight and i hope that they are sensitive and experienced.  There will be 8 puppies from 12-16wks; i have a few concerns as from what you say an introduction to an understanding older dog at first would be better to build his confidence. Anyway i can only trust in them and hope it's controlled.

Thanks for your comments, sounds like you have a happy housefull!

As with all puppies gentle socialisation is the best and would be worth you going to some good training classes for a while.
I go for walks sometimes with my TT and meet up with another younger TT, at first the other pup would over excited and jump on my dog and my TT would tell him off so we found distraction was the best way to calm things down ie when the pup jumped on mine i would call both of them and get them to sit for a treat then carry on walking again and repeat this if i saw things were getting abit wound up, always watching their behaviour and catching it before it got silly. I'd say your situation is the same and sounds more like over excited play rather than aggression, so it's learning to watch them and distract any unwanted silliness.
You really need your friend on board for this to work and if the pups get to over excited then put the one being silly on the lead for a couple of minutes to calm down.   May also be worth walking both pups for a while before you meet so they have less energy and want get so excited with each other.
You really don't want to pick your pup up unless things get aggressive as he will pick up on you panicking and then he'll get stressed out and this will effect how he reacts to other dogs. i've only ever picked my TT up once and thats when i was faced with three unknown dogs off lead being aggressive to mine and felt i had no other choice.
If you feel you can't relax with your pups together then leave it for now and get to training classes so your pup gets used to other dogs and feels more relaxed.
Also only do small amounts of time together with your friend, try just going for short walks with both the pups on the lead so they get used to each other and in a few weeks then then start letting then off again.       

Hi,

I certainly would not have been happy to have them just left to sort it out as your friend wanted to - and think the way you feel about the situation is much more appropriate.  Pups need positive experiences and I agree with Moonmaiden in that it's generally better if you can get them mixing with well behaved adults.  That's why in some cases puppy classes can cause more harm than good, because it can become a bit of a free for all where the more confident pups can bully the less confident pups, and a few incidences of a pup that isn't so sure of others being bounced on can end in them feeling threatened, leaving them feeling more unsure than before or having been forced into finding a way of dealing with that, like snapping or hiding.  If the socialisation classes are well run they will match up pups of similar temperament and won't have an off lead romp with them all, if you are at all worried you don't need to go back or can make your excuses and leave.

It would be lovely if your friends Westie and him could become friends but it won't happen if it's dealt with the way it was.  It can be difficult when friends have differences of opinion on dog ownership but at the end of the day it's your little pup, you know him and you were recognising there was tensions and didn't want him quite rightly to be stressed.  He needs you to step in and take him out of situations where he may feel threatened as he's only a baby.  Really it's important to watch his body language and try and redirect attentions and distract him/them before he is at the point of resorting to snapping as he's already way to stressed by that point.

At the same time it is important to not be too stressed about things as they do pick up on how we are feeling, something as simple as keeping a cheerful tone of voice as opposed to a worried 'it's ok baby' can make a big difference to a puppy.  I would if placed in that position again and you feel uncomfortable just remove yourself from the situation entirely.

I hope the classes are well run and you can enjoy them :-)

Hi teddyboy, this is an interesting post. This is in no way a criticism of you, quite the reverse--I understand that you are protective of your puppy and rightly so, we all want to ensure that our dogs grow up well socialised and laid back. I won't comment on two breeds I've never kept, but thinking about the general principle of one dog on the lead and the other off makes me uneasy. I exercise my dogs on open land and they frequently run across dogs who never are allowed off their leads, quite possibly for good reason, but isn't it better to try to raise them to have good recall? My two are occasionally curious enough to approach for a sniff, and two dogs sniffing at one on a lead is enough to make most leashed dogs uncomfortable. The leashed dog is always at a disadvantage and can feel your tension through the lead, your voice and body language. Shih tzus are smart little dogs--he understands you are alarmed and as his leader, if you are, he will feel he needs to be. A good puppy class is an excellent suggestion, not so much for Teddy but also for you so you can gain confidence and choose appropriate actions for the different situations you'll encounter every time you go out for a walk. You don't say whether Teddy is your first dog, either--if he is, all the more reason to get to a class. Ask your vet, check the telephone directory, your pup's breeder or your breed club for a recommendation, and check the class out without Teddy to start with to see what you think of it.  If you know someone else with a calm, older dog, see if you can sit in the middle, keeping them apart, sitting or lying down, and give Teddy and the other dog plenty of reassurance--use your hands and your voice to let them know how much praise they deserve for their calm behaviour. Good luck and try not to worry unduly.

Thanks people, really appreciate the advice.

I took him to a puppy class on Monday which was brilliant.  It was very controlled and the leader gave some great advice, it all made sense.  My pal was there too with her Westie and they loved it too - in fact he was used in the exercises a lot and was great, quickly understood what was expected of him, the leader had him lying down straight away! 

I think they are at different stages of development and so their first encounter was bound to be tricky.

There are 3 more classes which are as much for us as our puppies; like you say JAY15, when and how to praise and treat.  It was a bit hectic with my two children there though, think they could do with a bit of training themselves!  Again the leader was great, explained to them that he didn't want to be scooped up and cuddled at their whim, he should come to them.

Feeling much happier now, i started to see things from Teddy's point of view and maybe learnt a bit about interpreting his needs.  Which i reckon is half the battle (if not a bit more than that!).

Yep, Teddy is my first dog and i come from a family of We Don't Do Dogs people if you know what i mean.  They think dogs are smelly things that poo everywhere and are only a bind and a tie who mean you can't go on holiday.  This may be why i am so keen to make it all work - maybe being a single parent adds to that for me as well as i know that i have a lot of responsibility already with 2 kids plus job.  However Teddy has only been a joy so far, the girls love him and he is completely hilarious too.  Not going out is a way of life for me and he makes staying in more fun really.

Enough waffling from me, will keep you posted on progress, but this week has definitely been a good one (so far!).

Well done to you and Teddy then--sounds like a big boost in confidence all round and you are all well on your way! If your girls are old enough, perhaps think in terms of buying some lessons so that you take a turn sitting on the sidelines while one or other handles Teddy--that way Teddy knows he can expect consistent approaches from all of you and the girls get plenty of praise and attention too. There should also be books suitable for younger readers about dog training techniques with exercises you can practice together.

what an excellent thread with brilliant responses.  Just what a forum like this should be :)  Well done to you with Teddy, you are doing really well.  Good luck with the rest of his training - sounds like he has landed on his feet.