Hi,has anyone else had a similar experience?I had a 10 week old springer spaniel bitch and took her to the vet for a preliminary checkup.She was pronounced fit and healthy but had a few ear mites and the vet prescribed Stronghold.I enquired abot the parvo vaccine for future visit but was told it was practice policy to do pups from 8 weeks.I wasn't too sure about this as i thought Rosie was too young and not fully developed enough for all this in one go.But the vet persisted and i relented,and Rosie was given the first course of vaccine.She was fine until the Thursday when she seemed to be very quiet and sleeping more than usual,and vomited up her food straight away,then started shaking.I took her back to the vet,who thought she had an infection maybe through swallowing something,which i was sceptical about as we were watching her all the time as you do when they are pups.She was given Rimadyl,Amoxcyllin and Zantac and i took her home.She picked up for a few hours,and was playing,but at 8 o'clock had a massive fit and was foaming at the mouth.We watched here all night and she started to deteriorate quickly and was vomiting and very disorientated and unstable.Next morning i took her back again,and they kept her in for tests still believing she had something inside her.X-Rays were inconclusive,blood tests showed liver and kidneys were ok.They asked consent to do a laparotomy and she was operated on in the afternoon.Nothing was found inside,but lymph nodes were inflamed and white cell count was high.We took her to the aftercare service for the evening with intentions of picking her up the next morning.We had a phone call at 11-30 to say she was gravely ill,haemerraghing blood,diarrhoea and dehydration.A blood plasma transplant was suggested,but the survival rate would be as low as 30-40%,so we took the painful decision to put her to sleep.My gut instinct is that Rosie died of parvo virus,because of the two treatments she had on the Monday,I believe the Stronghold was too powerful,and broke down her immune system,and that she succumbed to the parvo vaccine she was given on the same day.I know that many breeders and vets also do not condone the use of Stronghold on young pups,especially Collies and Spaniels,because of its adverse effects.If she had been given these treatments on separate occasions,i believe she would still be alive.Now we are locked in a battle with the veterinary practice over what they have done,and they have billed us £550 since she died for the surgery procedures which were all pointless anyway.Has anyone else had any problems with either Stronghold or parvovirus vaccine either individually or administered together,as I need evidence to gather for legal action.We only had her for 5 days,and never even had the chance to get to know her and watch her grow up.

just wanted to say sorry for your loss. did they do a pm? it will be hard to pove it was the vaccine but good luck

Having arrived with ear mites she could have arrived incubating Parvo already.

Hi.. Do ear mites carry Parvo?  I thought it was only passed on from dogs who already had the Parvo. The vet told me that the mites would of come from the mother

> The vet told me that the mites would of come from the mother

Quite.  This puppy does not appear to have been reared by a concientious breeder so may have been exposed to other risks.

A dog ,as you may know ,who has the parvo vrius dies within 72 hours.  Rosie died 72 hours after taking her on her frist visit to the vets.

> A dog ,as you may know ,who has the parvo vrius dies within 72 hours.

The incubation period however is 7-14 days which means she will have contracted it at least a week before.  Have you been in contact with the breeder?

Yes the breeder has been contacted. He states clearly that all the pups were fit and well

> He states clearly that all the pups were fit and well

Well he would and to be fair they may not have been showing any symptoms at that time.  Are they all still fit and well?  He did let them go with ear mites.

Isabel...When the vet Checked Rosie over, a full check. She stated that Rosie was very fit and well and a normal little pup. Thats why she gave her her frist treatment

When you are incubating a disease there are no symptoms.  If it was Parvo she must have been incubating it.  You should ask your vet to explain this to you.

> Now we are locked in a battle with the veterinary practice over what they have done,and they have billed us £550 since she died for the surgery procedures which were all pointless anyway.Has anyone else had any problems with either Stronghold or parvovirus vaccine either individually or administered together,as I need evidence to gather for legal action.We only had her for 5 days,and never even had the chance to get to know her and watch her grow up.

Was she not insured? Most breeders will either arrange their own insurance for you, or will use the KC insurance. Either way, the bill will be covered, and you can perhaps talk the whole thing over with your vet without the money problem hanging between you. If you only had her 5 days, then she was almost certainly incubating parvovirus when you brought her home. You MUST speak again to your breeder and ask him to check with the owners of all the other pups to make sure that they are OK.

> fit and well and a normal little pup

Alan, in the blog you state that you thought she was underdeveloped (you ommitted that on this thread).. this, plus earmites is not normal..

Alan, a dog who is diagnosed with Parvo does NOT necessarily die within 72 hours. I have categorical proof that even though some dogs survive the disease, those that do not can take longer than the time stated by you, to die :-(

http://www.vetinfo.com/dparvo.html

This may be of some help to you. I am so sorry for your loss and understand that you need to investigate why this happened. Do not be afraid to ask questions of your Vet and anybody else that you think can help you.

HTH

Jo

Thank you for your message...I found this information on a site when I Googled " Provo virus"  I will inform the site that thay are wrong. 

Thank you for your message... When a puppy is a matter of up to 12 weeks old..would you say  that they are fully developed? I told the Vet on our frist visit that I didnt think Rosie was old enough for Stronghold and the Injection for provo. She said that they do it to all puppys from 8 weeks.  Then when Rosie was dying 4 days later..It was the Vet who said that she thought Rosie wouldnt makt it,and used the word underdeveloped..Meaing that she was a very young.  Why are you playiong with word?

Hi Alan, no playing with words.. to me, the meaning of underdeveloped, is not developed enough to age... At 12 weeks, I would expect a puppy to be perfectly well developed for that age..

Underdeveloped is quite a difficult word to interpret, depending on situations.. I was concerened about the use of the word.. and since your vet used it not yourself, that would give me more cause for concern.. A breeder should not let an underdeveloped pup go to a new home...

I vaccinate my pups at 8 and 10 weeks.

Underdeveloped does not mean young, .. a day old pup can be well developed... (for its age)

If this was my pup, I would ask the vet what 'he' meant by underdeveloped.. especially since you said he was happy  with pup..

I'm not a vet or a breeder but I agree with kayc. I'd take "under developed" to mean that your 12 week old pup looked a lot younger. Raises questions about the breeder selling you an ill pup or lying about the age.

My rescue were vaccinated at 8 and 10 weeks old, by 12 weeks they were going for short walks, meeting strange dogs, people, situations.

I'm sorry you lost your pup but from your post it seems your vet did everything they could to save her. I'd be going back to the breeder and asking questions, perhaps even looking for a refund.

Extremely sorry for your loss.

But i must point out that a pup that has ear mites would be raising my suspicions to how they were kept/reared.  Also as mentioned she could have been harbouring the virus when she left the breeders. I sell all my puppies with 6 weeks free insurance a 7 day money back health guarentee (if pup is unfit for sale, full refund allthough pup has check over before leaving me a day or two before he/she is picked up) , microchip and first vaccination, along with all the wormer from 2 5 8 weeks etc. The kennel club 6 weeks insurance would not cover illness and i doubt that having her for only 4 days you would have managed to insure her.

If this was my pup although i doubt with my strict and careful rearing it would contract such a virus and sadly died i would refund the purchase price in full and offer to pay vets fees. As its my moral obligation from being a decent and caring breeder and a decent person.

I hope you do get some moneys refunded, i know this wont cover your emotional loss. Id recommend researching a recommended breeder for your next pup as this never should have been allowed to happen. She wasnt from a puppy farm was she?

Sorry again for your loss

I am so sorry this has happened to your puppy, you must be heartbroken.

Firslty your pup should never have been vaccinated at the same time as she was given Stronghold, and you are absolutley right in thinking she was too young for her vaccines.  Pups still have their maternal antibodies until 12 weeks of age this being the optimum time for their vaccine, anthing before will cancel out the maternal antibodies leaving the pup without immunity and this being the reason it has become common practice to give two shots (the second 2 weeks later) as the first one cancelled out natural immunity.  To me it is criminal.

You need to report this incident as an adverse reaction, and DO NOT pay the vet.  Contact the vaccine manufacturer, you need a copy of thier retained batch samples (of the batch used on your dog) and you need to get tests done on the retained samples of the batch at the vets (if possible.  The one from the vet maynot be possible but the manufactuers are obliged to give you the results. You will need to be very vocal with the vets and the vaccine manufacturers and get them to sort the bill out between them, then cannot expect to charge you for causing the illness and subsequent death of your dog. 
Have a look at this website which might help : http://www.canine-health-concern.org.uk/

I have pm'd you. 

 

The incubation period however is 7-14 days which means she will have contracted it at least a week before

This is when parvo is caught from another dog, which is very different to when a dog has been given the virus through vaccine itself as most of us are aware symptoms (when vaccines go wrong) can come on almost immediately after the vaccine itself as it gets into the blood stream far more quickly.

As nothing has been established about hte exact cause of death i think it is very unfair of you to tell the op not to pay the vet. They acted in good faith and fought to save a pup that sounded like it was destined to be ill despite their best efforts. The majority of pups are given vaccines at 8 weeks and also are given stronghold with no ill effects. I agree that maybe it would have been best not doing it together, but that by no means puts them at fault in what sounds like a tragic case, and possibly caused by a breeder who did not rear the pups properly.

Regarding your comment above, you can not prove the pup did not have parvo before it left the breeders premises any more than you can prove it was brought on by the vaccine. 

>The majority of pups are given vaccines at 8 weeks and also are given stronghold with no ill effects.

Absolutely right. Thousands and thousands of puppies are vaccinated at 8 weeks without any ill-effects.

As nothing has been established about hte exact cause of death i think it is very unfair of you to tell the op not to pay the vet

I am advising the OP to do what I believe is right, if after the investigation it turns out that the vet or vaccine were not to blame then by all means the OP should pay, however, it is doubtful that the vaccine manufacturer or vet are not to blame, and after going through something like this myself, found that the manufacturer will foot the bill if they feel their vaccine caused the problem.

Regarding your comment above, you can not prove the pup did not have parvo before it left the breeders premises any more than you can prove it was brought on by the vaccine

and vice versa :)

Exactly, so what are you gonig to achieve by refusing to pay the bill? You cannot prove it either way, so why should the maufacturers foot the bill? If it was caused by the pup having a reaction to the vaccine because it was given at the same time as stronghold it is the vets fault. If it was purely the vaccine then it was the manufacturers fault (which is severly doubt seens as many pups have no ill effects at all, and it is wildely known that any drug or vaccine may affect some select individuals, therefore its not their fault. ) or it could be the fault of the breeder for not caring for the pups properly. You can only specualte about all of these so why not just accept it as a terribly tradgedy that could not have been foreseen?

You can only specualte about all of these

I am speculating as you are :)  but once the OP investigates it with the vet and the vaccine manufacturer thoroughly then he should get some answers.  It should not be a problem for the vet to wait for payment of the treatment in a situation as distressing as this while investigations take place, in fact I am sure a good vet would want to find out.  Once a conclusion has been reached, the most likely outcome would be the manufacturer would pay the vet. 

If you don't mind my saying your posts seem very defensive, I am not trying to argue with you, just stating my opinion as you are yours and I am also trying to help the OP as in situations like this it is very difficult to find the help needed to investigate what happened.

I won't say anymore on this thread.

I am very defensive as working for a vet i know just how much problem all this sort of thing can cause, it may not seem a problem for the vet to wait for the money, but in these troubled times bills still need to be paid and waiting months for things to be investigated does more harm than good for the business side of it. I also see how easy it is for people to immediately jump to the conclusion of a vaccine reaction, despite the fact that the animal had an undiagnosed underlying disease or it was simply a coincidence. In all the time that i have been working for a vet i can't say i have seen more than a couple of vaccine reactions, and these were generally very minor skin lumps. I find all talk about vaccine reactions to have a scare mongering effect which ultimately does more harm than good. Yes they may exist in the minority, but they are rare. I'm all for investigating, but i just dont see the fairness in immediately blaming the vet when the evidence suggests that the puppy may well have been harbouring the illness prior to vaccination, and the vet was just trying to act in the pup's best interests.

I really have no clue as to what your puppy died of Alan, I'm so very sorry for your loss, you must be totally devastated I really feel for you, to bring home a beautiful pup and then loose it so fast.

I am in agreement about one thing though I've always been told that you should not use a strong wormer/flea/earmite treatment along with vaccines that they should be given at seperate times due to an overload of the system, I think it is very possible that this has happened, I hope a through examination is taken of why and how this has come about.

Her symptoms sound the same as my FCR puppy (also called Rosie), she did survive but when she had her parvo booster the following year all the symptoms returned, my vet will not vaccinate a puppy until it is 12 weeks old. Perhaps my Rosie was caught quickly enough and being a little older survived. After the reaction to the booster vaccination, my vet told me not to vaccinate her against parvo ever again. I didn't and she lived to 11 years of age.