Hi folks..

we've just been to our local rescue centre and ended up coming home with a young male staff (we have been sort of looking for another dog recently and we just couldn't walk by him)..

We have been home for a couple of hours now and we started off with a walk around the block to introduce them to eachother which seemed to go ok and since getting in we've had a bit of chest puffing and growling which i have put a stop to immediately.

After reading a few articles online, im begginning to wonder if we may have made a complete mistake here and this will never work but i thought id post up and ask if anyone has any experience of this situation and if there is anything i can do/not to to help these two get along?

It would be a shame to take him back as on his own Max (as we've named him) is a lovely, loving pup with all of the normal, well rounded staffy traits.

With max being from the kennels and taken in as a stray, we have no idea about history obviously.. but from looking at him, he's probably under a year old still if that helps..

Andy

Most stafford people recommend NOT to have two male staffords
Did the rescue centre not ask any questions?

I think you may need more experience than I can offer but in the meantime it might help if you could give some more information about your existing dog.

How old is he?  How long as he lived with you?  What is he like with other dogs,  both in your home and off-territory?  Have you noticed different reactions from him with dogs and bitches?  Is he neutered?

How about the pup - neutered?  What info did the rescue give about his reactions to other dogs?  Did you have a supervised meeting with both dogs at the home?

This is not my area but I think you may get more helpful or useful advice if you be quite specific about the dogs, and perhaps a little about your home set-up.  Will you be expecting to leave them alone for long periods?  Where does your existing dog sleep?  Will you be able to separate them indoors and outside if needs be? 

I hope you get the help you need.  

thanks for the quick replies folks..

Ok - from the top... No, nothing from the centre - this is our local council place and they ask no questions, give no information, do no homechecks and provide nothing for or with the dog so we are starting off pretty blind here :(

benson is 3 1/2 and like i said, the new lad looks to be under year old.. Benson isnt what i would class as a dominant dog (so much so that when the in-laws scotty visits he submits after a growl or two) - outside of the house, he is fantastic and loves to play without any indication of aggression. We have had him for 2 years now.

the pup isnt neutered no and we have no history other than asking if he seemed dog friendly and the girl at the centre confirming that he was whilst out on walks.... he has only been in there for a few days and because of this, technically we are fostering him at the moment as they give the owners 7 days to come forward before putting them up for adoption... but we took him today without any prior visits with Benson (which was why i thought it best to take them straight out when we got home i guess).

with regards to the home setup - they will always be seperated when we are not around and will sleep seperated too - regardless of whether they get on or not i wouldnt be comfortable taking that risk.

we have a 'pooping' area and a play area in the garden so seperation there would also be possible..... although in all honesty, if that is the only option then i dont think it is going to work out - i dont think it would be fair for anyone involved (including the pooches) to have to carry on that way.

first few hours have told us a lot i think though - the new lad is quite a confident soul and does seem to be quite the dominant dog... whereas benson has taken to - bar the odd sniffing session, staying out of his way.

we have had them both up on the sofa with us with minimal grumbling and jostling for space with i took to be a good sign too and they seem to be happy with seperate toys too.

as i type now, they are both sat opposite sides of my feet lol

as one who does work in a rescue centre, i was quite shocked when you said they had not asked you to bring your dog in for a couple of meetings with the dog you had reserved.

but it all makes sense now, you havent been to a rescue centre, you have been to a strays pound........
...........they arent rescue centres

it is ill-advised really to buy any dog from anywhere without making sure they get on with all members of your family first, incl other dogs...
2 males staffies can be a particular risk

Just done first feeding time and it went fairly well - nobody tried to eat from anyone elses bowl and no-one complained!

*phew*

I find that it usually takes between 10-14 days for the true temperament and status quo to come out when introducing a new dogs. 
I'm really shocked that this rescue has allowed you to take another male home without anymore investigation and support.  It sounds as though they just want to get as many dogs as possible out of their kennel with little regard to what is best for dogs or people.  :(

Andy
whatever you do never leave them unsupervised and ensure they are seperated and in different rooms when you arent there if you decide you are going to keep the new addition. Without being alarmist  I have heard of people coming back to a dead dog

absolutely... even if they are ok - i wouldnt want to risk that knowing all it would take was 'hey - thats my toy!!'

I find that it usually takes between 10-14 days for the true temperament and status quo to come out when introducing a new dogs.
I'm really shocked that this rescue has allowed you to take another male home without anymore investigation and support.  It sounds as though they just want to get as many dogs as possible out of their kennel with little regard to what is best for dogs or people.

i totally agree with you west coast

except it wasnt a rescue, it was a council pound

completely different thing

good luck andy, hope it works out well, you have taken a big risk, but you are taking wise precautions.
this is why proper rescues centres don't let you take a dog home until your family and own dog/s have met the rescue dog at the centre a couple of times first

Hiya
Two male Staffs in the house would not be my choice let alone one being a young adult from a rescue centre....with no history behind him, and an adult dog of my own 3&1/2.... a big age gap would have been much easier if still not difficult if say your dog was 13&1/2 and you added the pup but you will soon have two Stafford dogs in the prime of life in the same house.

I agree the newcomer will find his feet and the fact you say he is already showing he is a confident/dominant dog after 24 hours mean you could have trouble unless your present dog rolls over and gives in. 

Lel's advice is excellent do not leave them alone even to answer the phone in the hall.........seperate them

Honest advice from me would be "take the youngster back" explain to the centre you have an adult male Stafford already and it is of no fault of the youngster.

It could work well but the fact you "no offence" did not have enough knowledge of Staffords to avoid having two males makes me wonder if you have bitten off more than you can chew..... maybe better to  cut your losses now if they have a tussel in a years time you could end up with heartbreak.

But if you decide to keep him best of luck, and may the Gods of peace be with you.

Karen

its not a rescue centre!

thanks for the advice guys...

I take no offence at all and i know i should have probably read up on this first!

strangely, i had read somewhere that 2 females should never be kept together so put 2&2 together, got 75 and figured that 2 males must be fine!

part of me is hoping that the youngen's owners come forward in the next couple of days because he is a lovely dog, if it wasnt for the possibility of fighting issues - id be over the moon with him and i know taking him back to the pound (not the rescue centre lol) and to the possibility of being pts would make me feel absolutely awful.

> its not a rescue centre!

I don't think there is any real definition on this though is there?  People refer to a dog they have bought from an advert or in the pub as a "rescue" and neither of these may involve any vetting what so ever so it makes little difference that the pound should be referred to in this way.

Yep two girls can fall out also you are correct-
depends upon the owners experience and situation and also the temperaments of the individual dogs and bitches-
I have 4 staffords - three females and a dog
ALL get on with the dog - two females get on great together (mother and daughter) but rescue crossbreed ( x stafford) doesnt get on with one of the other bitches and requires permanent seperation.
If you have the time and space to seperate should such a situation require it then all fine and good but it is difficult I must admit

I don't think there is any real definition on this though is there?  People refer to a dog they have bought from an advert or in the pub as a "rescue" and neither of these may involve any vetting what so ever so it makes little difference that the pound should be referred to in this way.

I have been working in rescue for 15 years, it makes all the difference in the world.

The only similarity between a rescue centre and a council pound is simply dogs live in kennels.

You need to consider 2 key areas:

1) The Stray Dog System
Local councils can kennel their dogs 3 ways:
a) sign a kenneling contract with an actual rescue centre
b) sign a kenneling contract with a private boarding kennel - can be referred to as a 'pound' in  some circumstances 
c) Run their own kennels - this is what is termed a 'council pound'.
This is more common in the North and in wales

On the whole, but their are exceptions, b) and c) mainly act as pet/sales establishments (ie, pet shops).
On the whole, but their are exceptions, a) mainly act as rehoming centres with a code of 'accepted practice'

2) Accepted practice'

Rescues, by definition, have an 'accepted code of practice' when it comes to rehoming.
Its the equivalent of 'reputable breeder'.
The standards are:
Dogs are assessed, training, rehabilitated, and receive veterinary care
Dogs is assigned a rehoming profile
Client fills in application form and receives interview
Interview determines if dog matches applicant
if so, client, including everyone thats lives at home, incl existing pet dog meets dog at centre, where further advice, training, and assessment of client and dog are performed
Homecheck performed

This takes a couple of weeks

Now, here is the key
Some rescue centres, like the ones i have worked for, do all of these things
Some rescue centres do some of these things
Some rescue centres dont do anything, they are considered woeful and out of step by 'reputable accepted practice rescues'

To put it into champdogs terms, if someone came on the board and said i went and bought a male staffie from a reputable breeder then took it home to meet my own male staffie, quite rightly everyone would be saying that isnt a reputable breeder, that is just a byb or pup farm.
At this point, I *could* reply that they all have 'bred a dog', and the average member of the public just says 'i bought a dog from a breeder', so it doesnt matter if you describe all these types of breeders the same way.
But i would be wrong to do so.
Thus, to describe a council pound as a rescue centre is the same as to describe a reputable breeder as a puppy farm/byb.

People can refer to a dog they bought from adverts or pubs as a "rescue", but its not, its a 'sale'
Calling it a rescue may make them feel better.
Also, they are using the word (as per my breeder analogy) as a verb, which doesn't presume the definition is the same when the word is used in its adjective form, as in "rescue centre"

The distinctions are critical

This probably sounds harshly put.
Dont mean to, but rescues do suffer when lumped in with council pounds.
No offence intended.

I don't disagree with you Krusewalker just pointing out the reality of how many people would see it and at one level they are all "rescued" from the state of needing a new home.

it's true people describe things wrongly, just as they say puppy farmers are proper breeders.
but it's the job of people such you i to educate the public accordingly, so they know they can go to 'reputable breeders and rescues' which offer safeguards which less reputable wouldnt offer.
otherwise people like the OP wont realise they have put themselves at risk and that their is actually a different and better way.

> it's true people describe things wrongly, just as they say puppy farmers are proper breeders.

Yes, I would always say to people go to the sort of rescue that will vet and advise but when people say they have had a litter but are not breeders we correct them and say they are, albeit not necessarily responsible or reputable ones so I don't really see why it would not be the same regarding the nominal title of rescue. 

because its not a nominal title

its a defined specific description, equivalent to the term 'reputable breeder'

pounds arent rescues, as they are simply selling dogs (albeit you do get some that do offer 'some' minor checks ). by the nature of their purpose - too many strays, not enough kennels, dog must be disposed of after 7 days - they most certainly could not routinely offer the 'accepted standards' of rescue rehoming practice, which require at least a couple of weeks.

by definition if the place is geared toward 'pet sales', that means it is called a 'pet shop', but the shop happens to have a kennel attached.

thus to describe a pet retail outlet as a rescue is akin to describing a puppy farm as a reputable breeder.

Hello Andy

The discussion is between myself an Isobel and hasnt been directed at you

However, i will pick up on a couple of your points

Firstly, you will find the the biggest concern that has been expressed to you is the potentials issues that could occur between your 2 specific dogs.
Secondly, you have been offered lots advice due to this..
Isobel and I (despite our other discussion) have agreed with others that it is very risky and potentially dangerous to buy a dog from anyone without having introduced it to members of your family and your own dog first.
That applies to any dogs. However, some breeds have higher risk factors.
Same sex bull breeds without going thru all the checks and assessments beforehand can be very risky...
Staffie breed rescue would tell you the same
In light of this, where you buy the dog naturally has an impact, because if you bought him from a real and reputable rescue or a real and reputable breeder, they would require that you bring yourself, your family, and your dog to meet their dog.
Unfortunately, council pounds aren't recues, so by the very nature of their legal responsibilities and practical restraints, often cannot offer this kind of service.
This is why real rescues such as Rochdale Dog Rescue have contracts with Northern Council Stray Dog Pounds to take dogs after 7 days, so they can then find out the dogs' likes and dislikes and then find them homes thru the correct and safer process.

For example, i have lots of young staffies in my rescue.
If you came to me, I would get you to bring your dog to meet our dog a couple times and if it didnt work out, I would find you a dog that would work.

> its a defined specific description

I have never seen any legislation or governing body that has defined it.  I think you are wishful thinking. As I say, I agree it would be a good thing if things were this well defined but I really don't think they are.  There is nothing to stop someone saying that when they buy a dog out of their local paper that they "rescued" it and I can't really see any reason why they shouldn't.  They did after all rescue it from whatever situation it was in.

Hi Isabel?

I never mentioned legislation. However, there is a voluntary industry 'governing body' that does clarify what defines a 'rescue'.
This is the ADCH. The CAWC is also building up a code of good practice as well

However, i could say the same to you re the term 'reputable breeder'.

I really dont understand your point?
It is pretty strightforward issue. At a local authority pound, you can just turn up, pay money, and take a dog home their and then.
That is a pet shop, hardly a true rescue centre that requires you get checks and assessments.
Once you explain the distinction to people, they usually understand.
Like i say, it would be like me insisting, despite several posts explaining the opposite, that a puppy farm or pet shop is just the same as a reputable champdogs breeder, because you cant stop some geezer down the pub saying they all breed dogs so they all just all the same: breeders.

I have never ever said i can determine how some one uses words, be the words 'breeder', or 'rescue', but since when has that been the criteria, therefore, for defining what is and isnt a 'reputable breeder' or 'rescue centre'?

Like I said earlier, the defintion of a verb form of a word doesnt autometically mean it has to be the same definition for the adjective form of the word, and vice versa.

This is pedantic, and not really the same issue i have been discussing.
I am referring to the meaning of the various decriptions in terms of the practical, operational and functional differences between the different types of establishments which house and place dogs in homes.

If you support reputable 'rescues/ centres', why would you wish to defend the misuse of their popularly accepted title to describe pet shops?
Would you feel happy if i kept calling champdogs reputable breeders puppy farmers, despite the difference having been explained to me several times, just because some random less informed people would just say "you all 'breed' dogs"?

I don't think I am explaining myself very well :-)  My point is "rescue" is to "breeder" as "reputable rescue" is to "reputable breeder". 
I am not saying "rescue" is to "reputable rescue" but I don't see why the term rescue could not be used by any organisation, centre or individual that finds a second home for a dog no matter how well they go about it.
You are entitled to see it differently but I don't think I can add anymore to how I see it :-)

>I have never ever said i can determine how some one uses words, be the words 'breeder', or 'rescue', but since when has that been the criteria, therefore, for defining what is and isnt a 'reputable breeder' or 'rescue centre'?

That's where the use of the adjective 'reputable' comes into play.

Anyone who owns a bitch that has a litter, even if it's just one puppy, is a breeder. Puppy farmers and commercial breeders who churn out litter after litter are also breeders. Some, however, take the responsiblity more seriously than others, and theyare the 'reputable breeders'.

Equally anyone who finds new homes for animals that aren't of their own breeding or own unwanted pets can be said to be a 'rescue' - council pound, someone with a large garden and a couple of kennels, or an efficient official charity. Some will have better practices and be more responsible than others.

JG, how do you always manage to word things better :-)
Actually, if we are being pedantic :-), Krusewalker, I would also add that I would not necessarily say to people only go to a reputable rescue, only perhaps to those who are inexperienced.  If you know what you are about I would say you should look in the pound, for instance, as these dogs deserve a chance too.

You will find that if you had this exchange on say the refuge or dogpages, etc, the vast bulk of people would tell you a council pound is called a council pound, not a rescue centre.
That is the understanding of things

Im not debating whether or not council pound dogs deserve a chance - i agree.
Which is why actual rescue centres and groups all over the country try to take as many pound dogs away from 'council pounds' so they then can assess and rehome them with safe procedure and post homing back up.

But im realistic, it cant always happen that way, so the pounds should do their best.
That means they should, at the least, ask the customer to bring their dog to meet the dog, then sell the dog to them.
As some 'sort' of safegaurd is better than none.

As you said isabel, anyone who buys a dog from anywhere can just turn around and say they rescued him, if so inclined.
As the word rescue implies he had to be saved from an unfortunate circumstance
So im not talking about the everyday term 'rescue' im talking about the term 'rescue centre' v the term 'council pound' (AKA pet shop) (ie, adjective, function, practice).
Completely different entities.
Just as champsdogs reputable breeder V puppy farm (ie adjective, function, practice)

As it happens, i prefer the term 'rehoming centre' for rescues centres, due to the fact the the term rescue has been increasingly misused to mean anything from buying a dog from a pound without responsible practice, to the guy who buys it irresponsibly from some dogy breeder advertising thru the free ads.
The term 'rescue' became more popular when all the TV shows started, and people realised they could use this word to justify and give credibilitiy to their own irresponsibility

I hear it often in my job.
ie, i want to give up my 15 yr old dog as he is costing me medical bills, but he's not really my dog anyway, i 'rescued' him from my neighbour a few years back.

I think you'll find that 'pound' is an American term, not very much used over here. Our local council doesn't have its own kennels - strays are taken to a (not very local) rehoming centre where, if they're not claimed by their owner within 7 days they're available to anyone.

> But im realistic, it cant always happen that way, so the pounds should do their best.

As they are run on public money I suspect they do not have any choice but to sell a dog when someone offers to buy it. 
However the point we are discussing is not how rescues, pounds or whatever ought to run it is this notion that rescue centres that vet owners have some sole entitlement to the term.
Like you I think it would be a lot simpler if the term rehomed had never been lost :-)  It's a lot more straightforward and applies whether the new home is better or worse than the last!

Hello jeangenie

It started in America, but has been in use in this country for a long time.

check out websites: dogpages, rochdale dog rescue, rescue helpers unit, the refuge, for examples

Re your other point, i have already explained this in my an earlier post - how the stray dog kenneling contract system works:

The Stray Dog System
Local councils can kennel their dogs 3 ways:
a) sign a kenneling contract with an actual rescue centre
b) sign a kenneling contract with a private boarding kennel - can be referred to as a 'pound' in  some circumstances 
c) Run their own kennels - this is what is termed a 'council pound'.
This is more common in the North and in wales
 

part of me is hoping that the youngen's owners come forward in the next couple of days because he is a lovely dog

You could try entering his details on Doglost http://www.doglost.co.uk/page.aspx?pg=72 in the hope that his owners come forward or browse the site to see if he has already been registered with them. If he is a lost dog rather than an abandoned dog I am sure his owners will be frantically trying to find him.

Andy

Thanks for asking for some advice on this site, which I think a few people have given you. 
Being the owner of 2 Staffords myself (though one is male and the other female) and being someone who has worked / volunteered within Stafford breed rescue, my advice would be very very similar to Lel's.
2 males could be a bloomin' nightmare even if you DID know the dog's background, but to not even have a wee bit of history, it could be terribly difficult. 

If your new lad's owners do turn up, does that mean you're only fostering him at the moment?  Sorry if I've misunderstood that part of your post. 
In the meantime, don't let either one of them out of your sight! :D  And I'm sure whether the new chap is with you for a long or short period, you'll do good by him. 
My gut instinct would be to take him back to the council/kennels I'm afraid, but...

Please let us know how you get on with whatever you decide.

I don't know anything about staffies other than what i've read here.So as a completely objective view,i would say that for the sake of both dogs,take Max back to the centre before it gets too upsetting for him to go back,and before anything nasty happens between the boys.I'm afraid you're too much in the dark over Max,and it would be sad that they had to be seperated full time.

thanks for all of the replies guys..

Unfortunately, we have decided that it would be best to take the lad back tomorrow - as mean as it makes me feel, i think its for the best for everyone involved.

Hi Andy

As mean as it makes you feel, I'm sure it's the best decision all round.  Look at it this way - Max will hopefully find a home where he is the sole dog and will get one to one attention.  (Not that you weren't going to give him that of course, but will be easier I'm sure for someone who doesn't have another dog watch out for).  Hope you see what I mean!? lol

Sorry to hear you are having to return him, but sounds like it is for the best.

Just out of interest, as I have no direct experience of staffies, are they a breed known to be difficult with 2 males together?
I always thought (probably naively) that males together were generally fine, and females together could be a problem - is this more a breed specific thing?
Jus pondering, as I would like to home another dog at some point to live with my male (castrated) GSD - so I should steer clear of staffies or staffie Xs?
Or does it depend on individual dogs?

Sorry to hijack your thread andyboro.....

hi ya tokiayla

it does depend on the individual dogs, but 2 bull breeds together, especially both younger, and especially if unneutered, can be difficult. that applies to 2 males or 2 females.
akitas can be this way as well, but on the whole, its not a common feature of all breeds.
shepherds arent so bad.
a male staffie or staffie x could get on fine with a male GSD, as long as each dog is ok.
you would need a few meetings in advance of taking new dog home, and its good if you know the history of the staffie

as a general rule of thumb in the dog world (again depends on individual dogs and breed), the best combination is male and female, followed by male and male, then female and female. 

> If you know what you are about I would say you should look in the pound, for instance, as these dogs deserve a chance too.

quite, but many/most would have a far better change if passed to a breed rescue... such a shame these places don't often do this as it would be better for everyone.

i agree astarte

their are a few rescue organisations/centres that take pound dogs now..
such as HOPE, pound hounds, RDR

i always say to people i know who are looking for a rescue that their best bet will be a breed rescue as their needs will be worked out and they are likely to get the best dog for them that way, and thats usually the best thing for the dog!

lots of dogs are crossbreeds though
and you general rescues get lots of the more common breeds like jack russells, german shepherds, and staffies. staffies are at least 50% in every rescue.
so the general rescues also have lots of breed experience.
some of the breed rescues work with the general rescues and vice versa.
its also the case of persuading some breed rescues to help with the poundies

as long as the rescue applies all the interview, assessments, training, advice homechecks, etc, then the customer will be matched with the dog they need at a breed and general rescue

Just caught up with this thread.
Sorry to hear max is being taken back.
I think a strongly worded letter of complaint should be written the the rescue centre. They have failed poor max by not carrying out basic and simple introductions with your current dog, doing housechecks etc and talking to you about taking on a rescue dog & i worry that this could happen in the future to other animals.
They may think that by getting rid of max it was one less dog for them to worry about but sadly i envisage lots of pups being taken back due to potential owners not being properly vetted.

Just today i looked at the pages of my local rescue centre. They are advertising for homes for 3 young pups they have, will be ready mid june. Alongside some cute pictures It says due to 1/3 of our last litter of pups being returned we are asking you ring to express an interest before visiting the dogs. This hardly strikes me as a great way to advertise pups and does not even mention what breed they are or are likely to be. If this was how they handled the last litter then no wonder the pups got returned. Such a shame

The young dog came from the Stray kennels not a Rescue kennels

we are asking you ring to express an interest before visiting the dogs It is a common vetting process ofton used by rescues to stop time wasters or people who will not be suitable by asking some very simple questions :-)

> The young dog came from the Stray kennels not a Rescue kennels <IMG class=qButton title="Quote selected text" height=10 alt="Quote selected text" src="/images/mi_quote.gif" width=20>

A stray dog is still a rescue if it is being rehomed is it not?

The Dog is a rescue but not the kennels it came from

So what obligation do the kennels have then if they re home strays? Im afraid i dont understand, would have thought a rehoming process would be similar to any other rescue/stray kennels.

None to be honest the dog was on a weeks foster incase it's owner turned up & the it would either be PTS or rehomed. It is up to the Local Authority & the kennel owner whether the put up for reoming or PTS after the 7 days. Rescue Kennels on the otherhand are very unlikely to PTS a fit & healthy dog

Thank you :-)

> lots of dogs are crossbreeds though

very true. i suppose in those cases a better equipt/run/funded centre- basically whatever the problems been on this occassion- would be best. i think its likely that these centres are funded poorly and so cannot be run as well as we'd all like.

> its also the case of persuading some breed rescues to help with the poundies
>

i find that very upsetting :(