> Not too long ago my husband had his ankles attacked by 2 JRT's, there is no point in giong on about 'what if it was a child they attacked, what if they ripped open the childs leg, what if, bla, bla, bla' as the FACTS of the matter were that no serios damage was caused. This should be the case with any dog attack/fight/bite - the FACTS of the incident are important, not all of the 'what ifs' that people stick on the end.
>

To be honest, the 'what if's' would matter to me. If my dog bit someone but fortunately no serious damage was caused, the fact that they attacked would still be very serious and it would be my responsibility to ensure it would never happen again. Although of course biting humans and biting other dogs are very different.

> Why should other owners have to face these risks?

1) we were not there so cannot make a judgement as to what happened and who started it

2)since when is potential for damage a damning factor in anything?

3) and you face 'these risks' from our dogs because i face them from yours! any dog is quiet capable of injuring someone no matter what breed. i have owned a bullbreed my entire life and the only dog that has ever bitten me was a miniature poodle

i join mastifflover in being surprised and shocked and in my case not a little offended at finding this view on a dog forum

> I do feel it would be worth at least speaking to a senior behaviourist at Battersea.
>

Thanks after the shock wore off I remembered about the pack they gave us when we got Fudge, it does indeed have a behaviour line number on it, which I will call a.s.a.p

> They have plenty of experience with bull breeds and crosses because so many end up in rescue

Yes I know to well when we began looking for a puppy in Jan 2008 at the rescue centers 90% were STB or STB crosses.

> We have that extra responsibility in knowing what they are capable of if they get to that stage.

Absolutley, we have allways had Rotties so I understand what your saying.


Thanks for your response :-)
Diane

Astarte, I know that comment you responded to was not mine, but just to say that my interpretation was that the risks referred to having a dog at training class which had bitten previously with no warning, rather than to do with the breed.  Certainly that's my take on it. I think there is a bigger potential for damage if a dog has been known to attack without provocation, which would then be a bigger risk for everyone else.  As you say we were not there but this is just according to the description of what happened.

> but just to say that my interpretation was that the risks referred to having a dog at training class which had bitten previously with no warning, rather than to do with the breed.

thats not how i read it, and i think i recall the poster making similar comments in the past. in any case this dog had not bitten previously had it?, it was an isolated incident.

Honeybee, we can not say that it was an attack without warning or provocation, simply that we as mere humans had not seen any. Dogs are much better at reading the signs than us and for all we know the other dog may have given off a very rude or aggressive signal that the owners and the others missed. My dog occaisionally gets into fights, but rarely starts them, she has a very quick temper and because she can flare so quickly (by the way she's a golden retriever) other people may miss what the other dog had done to start it, it could be a look, a growl etc something very minor that can cause an argument, but because the first thing most people notice is the actual fight very few people actually see that it was not my dog that had started the argument, simply that my dog responded aggressively.

It seems my plea to keep things on a supportive and constructive level for Diane and Fudge's benefit has been kicked into touch.

Suffice to say the proferred 'thanks in advance' is withdrawn.  Some folks just can't help but pull things apart and pre-judge without genuinely putting themselves in a similar situation to the OP - not the owner of the dog which was a victim.  Which is not to say we wont naturally reflect on how we may feel in similar circumstances if our dog was a victim but perhaps in this specific instance it would be better to keep those feelings aside and give priority to helping Diane through her worries.

Diane didn't invite, encourage or condone Fudge's attack - the thread title and opening post makes it VERY clear that she's deeply worried by it and needs HELP, not to be made feel even more guilty or anxious that she's has a time bomb on her hands

I sincerely hope Diane isn't further upset and dishearted by the (thankfully few) tactless and unnecessary remarks made from those who prefer to work on the basis of speculation rather than information provided in good faith :(

I don't know if you are suggesting that I am tactless Teri, since you haven't replied directly to my post. But as on any topic there are varied opinions, and yes I was imagining myself in a similar situation to the OP when replying, and nor was I criticising her in any way in fact.

Had I been replying specifically to you then you'd know as you would have a notification on the front of the forum and/or email confirmation.

As it happens I intentionally replied to my own post rather than single anyone out :)

However your recent post:

>my interpretation was that the risks referred to having a dog at training class which had bitten previously with no warning, rather than to do with the breed.  Certainly that's my take on it.

seem to suggest that you have followed the chinese whispers route relating to the events being discussed - hardly useful to the OP or on topic for that matter

You then went on to say:

> I think there is a bigger potential for damage if a dog has been known to attack without provocation, which would then be a bigger risk for everyone else.  As you say we were not there but this is just according to the description of what happened.

In light of the OP's given information, plea for assistance and subsequent advice & support offered to her by several members then IMO comments such as those highlighted are tactless.

I politely requested that going down the route of casting aspersions relating to breed be avoided - while it was merely a request, IMO in the circumstances it would have been equally polite and respectful to Diane had that been something on which others could agree.

While varied POVs and opinions are to be expected on any subject on the forum and, generally welcomed, I fail to see validity in your above mentioned opinions when they are based on fabricated detail!

Teri you may as well have 'singled me out' since you were obviously trying to refer to me.
Regarding 'chinese whispers' - of course none of us witnessed this incident, so we can all only go on what the OP says, which is that no warning appeared to be given. So in fact I was relating to the events being discussed, of course none of us know if a subtle warning was given but not noticed.
There is no reason to say I am casting aspersions on any breed either, this was never the case. I made it clear that I would be just as concerned if my own toy breeds did this, I don't think it would be in any way normal adolescent behaviour. So please don't  suggest I am disrespectful of the OP or the breed.

Honeybee

I've now replied specifically to you because you did to me - nowt more than that.  It was admittedly the inappropriate posts initially by lab007 and then followed on by yourself which spurred me to request we stay on topic and away from negative speculation - which clearly failed!

You referred as highlighted above to events which didn't happen - the OP has given a full account of how Fudge has behaved previously at classes and no mention has been made, apart from your own, of him having bitten before

Clearly it's pointless continuing this back and forth debate - a request was made and ignored.  I hope Diane can shrug off the less helpful posts as easily as those making them can shrug off her feelings.

> So please don't  suggest I am disrespectful of the OP or the breed.

you stated that you agreed with lab007 when they essentially said that the dogs breed was the problem.

> don't think it would be in any way normal adolescent behaviour

for adolescents to scrap? not to minimise the distress of the incident to the op and the other owner but teenage dogs do occassionally have the occassional run in... as do adolescents of all species. from the description given by the op it sounds to me like this was a bicker that went farther than it usually would because of inappropriate methods of intervention.

> no mention has been made, apart from your own, of him having bitten before
>

No I didn't mean he had bitten before! (how on earth could I say that)I was referring to the idea of a dog returning to the class after they have bitten previously.
I was not attempting to speculate negatively, perhaps things are misinterpreted, unfortunately that happens sometimes. Yes this is going round in circles!

My level of agreement was that clearly if a dog attacks which is of a breed which does not easily let go (as others had already discussed) this is more of a problem.  And I do think it is normal for dogs to 'bicker' but from the description given by the OP this did not sound like that to me, but like I said as none of us were there we can't be sure whether it went further because of inappropriate intervention.

Teri,
      Thankyou very much, I indeed did not want to be drawn into this, which is why I have not responded and will not respond.

I would just like to say thankyou to those who have given me help and advice, the reason for me posting on here was to gain valuable info/help from the members on CD, which I am grateful for not just with this topic but everytime I have ever asked for help and advice.

> I hope Diane can shrug off the less helpful posts as easily as those making them can shrug off her feelings.

I don't think anyone can make my feelings any worse than I still feel now, I know it will take a long time to get over this for both parties.

I won't be put off coming or posting on CD it is to much of a treasured information source, which at many times i've needed greatly and has been a true wonder! Sorry for going all mushy! :-)

Diane

Diane didn't invite, encourage or condone Fudge's attack - the thread title and opening post makes it VERY clear that she's deeply worried by it and needs HELP, not to be made feel even more guilty or anxious that she's has a time bomb on her hands

I sincerely hope Diane isn't further upset and dishearted by the (thankfully few) tactless and unnecessary remarks made from those who prefer to work on the basis of speculation rather than information provided in good faith 

Hear hear

> I won't be put off coming or posting on CD it is to much of a treasured information source, which at many times i've needed greatly and has been a true wonder! Sorry for going all mushy!

You have a lot of support here :)
Unfortunately some dogs do inflict damage to others, dog will be dogs and don't have the ability to talk out thier feelings amoungst thierselfs.
I know how mortifying it feels to have your own dog damage another :(  but Fudge is not a lost cause atall, he's still very young which makes stopping this escalate/changing his behvaiour so much easier (with the right help).
I hope you keep us updated.

:) glad your managing to look past the comments.

Onwards and upwards Diane :)

Teri x

> Unfortunately some dogs do inflict damage to others,

Agreed.

> I know how mortifying it feels to have your own dog damage another :-(

Devastated to say the least, I don't take the dog's out on my own, well never together, used to take Bo out all the time on my own, but won't take both out, right now im not confident enough to walk Fudge alone, yesterday when we took him for a walk I was just a jibbering nervous wreck and my OH got a little cross with me, when we got back into the car, I said im sorry but I can't help feeling they way I do even when you (OH) are holding him I am so afraid, totally different at home with Fudge because he is a big soppy lump who just licks the living daylights out of you and still thinks he can sit on your lap for a cuddle! :-)

> but Fudge is not a lost cause atall, he's still very young which makes stopping this escalate/changing his behvaiour so much easier (with the right help).

> I hope you keep us updated.

Yes I will :-)

> I was just a jibbering nervous wreck

honestly keep at it, it gets better. after tio had a couple of issues following my operation i got so nervous handling him but it really does get better. we met two people in the stairs yesterday (where he used to be really dodgy) and one he decided he wanted a cuddle (granted her bitch is in season) and the other he woofed once then left be mostly because i was fine :) positive mental attitude is all you need but it takes time after such a shock

edited to add, and tell your other half that he's making it worse by being mean to you!

> positive mental attitude is all you need but it takes time after such a shock

I know I will try, but yes it will take time.

> and tell your other half that he's making it worse by being mean to you!

I had a chat with him, although he does not understand how I feel, which I appreciate as he can't feel how I do, he does realise to a certain extent how it has affected me, he can see that im not myself. :-(

i found rescue remedy helped for chilling out when taking my lad out

> i found rescue remedy helped for chilling out when taking my lad out

My eldest daughter takes this when flying, taking tests/exams/sats, we allways have it in stock at our house, it did not enter my head but will definitely start taking it.
Thanks :-)
Diane

Hang in there Diane. You are doing all you can and have been very responsible in my opinion.

hope it helps :)

> Devastated to say the least, I don't take the dog's out on my own, well never together, used to take Bo out all the time on my own, but won't take both out, right now im not confident enough to walk Fudge alone, yesterday when we took him for a walk I was just a jibbering nervous wreck and my OH got a little cross with me, when we got back into the car, I said im sorry but I can't help feeling they way I do even when you (OH) are holding him I am so afraid, totally different at home with Fudge because he is a big soppy lump who just licks the living daylights out of you and still thinks he can sit on your lap for a cuddle! :-)
>

There are lots of lovely, lovely dogs out there who turn into monsters when faced by another dog they take a dislike to, you are taking your responsibility seriously and that's really important. Fudge hasn't changed, he is still your big soppy pup, you are understandably just a wee bit shaken by his actions (and those of the people around you) the other night. Your OH came in at the tail end of a very scary incident and was able to control the situation quickly so is not as shaken as you are. Keep walking him with your OH, the confidence will come back for you too. I would have been shaken by this too (I think anyone would) especially as everyone was so horrible to you about something that wasn't your fault, a bit of support and reassurance at the time from the trainers would have helped, but they seem a bit ineffective at best TBH. Remember it really wasn't your fault and forgive yourself a bit, you have done everything right.

Hope you feel better soon
Marion x

very good post

As an outsider looking in, i noticed something that so far nobody seems to have touched upon which i thought was worth mentioning.

I noticed that initially Diane was of the opinion that this incident was completely unprovoked & without warning but as she has given more little snippets of info in further posts it does sound to me that this could have been building over some time. In particular Diane has now mentioned that he doesn't like going, he struggles when getting in the car, and he is already stressed by the time he gets to classes, in which case is it really surprising that this happened?

I certainly agree that one-2-one training is the way forward with this dog as it does seem that a pattern has developed when going to lessons, ie he sees car, struggles, he gets worked up in the car, he is already stressed when you get to classes. Maybe going back over the past can help in finding out why he gets so stressed because this could have been the slow build up that lead to this incident, in which case perhaps it wasn't completely without reason afterall? I get the feeling he could have been slowly working up to this & perhaps it wasn't realised at the time?

Mary.

Hi Diane

Have been in a similar scene to you not so long ago. My dog is 2 1/2 and we face daily challenges together nearly every day. He doesn't seem to cope with situations in the outside world so well. This particular day he went frantically running around the garden when the postman walked past and in one big leap jumped a gate. Rufus has no recall when out and he decided to explore every garden - postman forgotten about. My neighbour came out with her 14yr old small dog to see if they could entice Rufus back. Came back alright only to rough him up. It was an awful moment that must have only lasted seconds but it was so upsetting to hear neighbour screaming and little dog trying to defend himself. Thank God no physical harm was done, it was all noise. I felt so cross with Rufus, cross with myself and so cross with his breeder (another story.) How could Rufus have done this to a dog he had known and liked all his life? Our behaviourist thinks he was so full of adrenalin after the encounter with the postman.

Just letting you know this because my confidence also fell to an all time low.
Chin up,
Ann

Hi flyball,

some important observations in your post and every probability that warning signs relating to stress build up have been overlooked.  Hopefully this will help further Diane's quest to best address future training methods with Fudge :)

regards, Teri

As an outsider looking in, i noticed something that so far nobody seems to have touched upon which i thought was worth mentioning.

I noticed that initially Diane was of the opinion that this incident was completely unprovoked & without warning but as she has given more little snippets of info in further posts it does sound to me that this could have been building over some time. In particular Diane has now mentioned that he doesn't like going, he struggles when getting in the car, and he is already stressed by the time he gets to classes,

I mentioned it in my post further up ... somewhere .... :)

Lindsay
x