Why do so many vets seem to have so little knowledge of nutrition? Round here the vets seem to be anti raw-feeding and anti "species appropriate" dry diets-ie the higher protein ones.I always advise my salon customers on the importance of a healthy diet(and not letting dogs get too fat) but lately its been very frustrating that they have been told by their vet that "too much protein damages dogs kidneys" in particular that older dogs need a lower protein diet.One customer was also told that feeding raw meat is "dangerous".Of course people take the advice of their vet as they assume that vets know everything.
When I got my sheltie puppy and took her to my vet for her first vaccs the first thing I was asked was what I was feeding her on.Well,the breeder provided me with a diet sheet-she was having 4 meals a day consisting of fresh raw mince(which the breeder was careful to stress must have been previously frozen),plus a scrambled egg meal and one of ready brek and goats milk plus a vitamin and mineral supplement.Well ok she probably didn't need the ready brek but overall not a bad diet really was it-and she was doing well on it.The vet said I needed to take her off all this "human food" as soon as possible and get her onto a "proprietary puppy food".When I asked what she fed she said Bakers.Well this was a couple of years ago and yes I did change her onto a dry complete food as at the time I thought she must know what she was talking about.

> Why do so many vets seem to have so little knowledge of nutrition?

Do they?  They study anatomy and physiology to a very high level and are then examined on their understanding.  Where have you acquired your understanding of nutrition? The internet? :-)

As I understand it vets do not have any in depth knowledge of Nutrition, it is not a major component of their training.  In fact  I understood that it was a major canine dog food manufacturer that gave them a talk on it.

More importantly why do so many owners assume that a Vet is the authority on all things to do with animals from husbandry to breeding when in most cases their expertise is confined to the diagnosis and treatment of animal ailments.

Nutrition is a major component of physiology.  How can they leave it aside?
As I understand it food companies do presentations as to what is available on the market but that is not the same as teaching the subject of nutrition.  I agree with you about husbandry though.

Hmmmm.... I think the problem is universally one of not just education but keeping abreast of the advancemets in clinical research and the availability of balanced evidence (and this applies more I feel to the armchair internet self made experts than it does to the Veterinarian by and large in my opinion, based on what I have seen published by both.)

For example:
If we take your statement.

> told by their vet that "too much protein damages dogs kidneys" in particular that older dogs need a lower protein diet.

And tie it in with the common criticism that Vets are 'in the pocket' of commercial pet food manufacturers...

Then look at what those manufacturers are actually publishing Here, statement regarding need for high protein in senior dogs from Iams Purina also have invested in research and published/ stated the same (as others have but off the top of my head I wouldn't like to name in case I get a few wrong but its all 'out there' to read)

;)

> I think the problem is universally one of not just education but keeping abreast of the advancemets in clinical research and the availability of balanced evidence

Quite.  We do not really know if Purina are running on the balance or choosing to exploit one opinion within the field for a marketing angle but I think we can say, as you point out, as a body Vets are best placed to be aware of the latest evidence and have a clearer appreciation of the strength of it. There will always be some individuals taking a different tack but there will generally be a concensus somewhere.

>> Do they?  They study anatomy and physiology to a very high level and are then examined on their understanding.  Where have you acquired your understanding of nutrition? The internet? :-)

Actually Isobel its from spending most of my working life as a dog groomer-us groomers are more aware of a dogs health than you might imagine after seeing them every 6 weeks or so over a period of 10/15 years.I also worked for a well known dog food company for 5 years.Dogs fed on a high carb/lower protein diet just feel different to those fed a higher protein diet-softer in body and they have less muscle.As far as I know none of my customers dogs are fed on an exclusively raw diet but several are fed on a home made diet and I have to say those seem to be the healthiest-one dog that is fed almost exclusively on cooked hearts is still in great health at nearly 18.Quite a few dogs have skin problems and are extremely arthritic at a relatively young age(7 or 8 onwards).So there must be something causing it-maybe annual vaccinations have a part to play as well-who knows? Loads of times when the owner has taken the dog off one of these high carb/lower protein,grain filled diets and put it onto something that is higher protein and grain free(or a home made diet) the dogs health has improved,skin problems have cleared up,arthritis has improved,etc.
And quite a few of my agility friends feed a totally raw diet and swear by it-the condition of dogs at an agility show is a stark contrast to the majority of pet dogs.And yes I know obesity is a major factor-most pet dogs are overweight,I'd say about half are really quite obese.
I'm a vegetarian and would love it if my dogs could thrive on a vegetarian diet as well but its just not going to happen.

To be honest here, I'm always slightly at a loss when this argument gets churned out why the crux of the problem is never adressed, In fairness to the Veterinary proffession at large at a recent International Pet food manufacturers conference Vets were given a questionaire in which they were invited to detail the question they would most like to ask manufacturers, The most commonly requested was "Why is the Calorific content not advertised on packaging and can we have the calorie content detailed?" (Just out of interest the next most popular were regarding 'breed specific' diets)

So in that respect.. I'm saying hoorah for the vets :) and am still as to why you are not honing in on this!? (Given the examples you have choosen, obesity, joint problems etc)

So everyone has yet still a lot to learn......
I can see the frustration from both sides in the 'home prepared diet' but sadly and based on some of the glaring innacuracies I see passed as 'experienced' advice on this forum alone, I can understand the Veterinarian prefering to err on the side of caution and advise a (tested/researched/evaluated and regulated) commercial diet.
   I have been questioned by vets in the past about my home fed methods and I am quite happy for them to do this and on being able to demonstrate knowledge understanding and caution I have not had one tell me I'm doing anything wrong once they are satisfied at my level of understanding.

> And quite a few of my agility friends feed a totally raw diet and swear by it-the condition of dogs at an agility show is a stark contrast to the majority of pet dogs.

I rather think their activity levels compared to many modern pets dogs may have a lot to do with that :-), Many pets owners do not exercise properly and do not stick to feeding recommendations and include many titbits. 
When people stick to feeding and exercising properly there is no reason why they should not do just as well as many top show winning and long lived dogs demonstrate.
Vets also have the experience of laying their hands on many, many dogs and they also have the advantage of their training and ongoing access to information on the subject. 
You may well be knowledgable on the subject but I think you are wrong to dismiss vets as not.

> Do they?  They study anatomy and physiology to a very high level and are then examined on their understanding

would you listen to your gp to the n'th degree about a specialised complaint? vets in general practise study subjects to a middle level in my view rather than a high one- thats where specialisms come in. i wouldn't consider my vet an expert on anything other than what they have studied or worked with to an advanced level.

I don't think nutrition in the context of general all round health is particularly specialist.  I would certainly expect my GP to be able to advise me on the requirements of a healthy diet even to meet the requirements of the more common metabolic disorders.

> I would certainly expect my GP to be able to advise me on the requirements of a healthy diet even to meet the requirements of the more common metabolic disorders.

thats true but my point was vets are far from experts on many subjects-they simply can't be as they don't have the time to be.

you also often here of vets being i suppose the phrase would be 'taken in' by some foods, i.e. suggesting bakers as a good food (??). while i appreciate that different foods suit different dogs i wonder would you reccommend bakers to someone to try if they asked you for a list of good foods to look into?

> thats true but my point was vets are far from experts on many subjects

I'm really not sure you need a specialist vet to understand the nutritional requirements of a healthy dog.

> i.e. suggesting bakers as a good food (??).

Why shouldn't they?  In what way do you think they were "taken in"?  As far as I know Bakers do not go in for promotion through vets surgeries.  Perhaps they just feel it is a good budget food for their clients.  I know more than one dog that does very well on it so I would certainly say give it a go.

> In what way do you think they were "taken in"? 

sorry, i didn't mean to refer to bakers in this though considering my post it probably did (long day at work! please forgive the dozy :)), i rather ment other brands in that case. i appreciate it could genuinely be the vets opinion but many really fight with clients to take the brand they stock rather than another equally good (or at least still good) brand.

> Why shouldn't they?

because its not a good food. there are other better but still well priced foods out there.

would you reccommend it to someone?

> would you reccommend it to someone?

I've just said I would.  Maybe there are other brands but I know about this one.

sorry, missed that last bit.

well we shall have to agree to disagree then isabel

> Actually Isobel its from spending most of my working life as a dog groomer-us groomers are more aware of a dogs health than you might imagine after seeing them every 6 weeks or so over a period of 10/15 years

vets also see and "get their hands on" quite a lot of dogs. my boy has quite a lot of muscle and is in extremely good body condition, and is fed a commercial diet. i put it down to the fact he is well exercised and not over fed....

Maybe it is unfair of me to criticise most vets-no doubt there are good ones and not so good ones.And I know that vets do advise on the importance of not letting dogs get overweight-even though they must make most of their money from the fat ones! I think I must just be unlucky in that a couple of my local vets do seem to give out strange advice regarding feeding.Suz1985,I'm not saying there aren't some good commercial diets out there-only that an awful lot of pet dogs are fed on poor ones.Its just a bit frustrating when we have dogs in being dosed up with steroids for skin conditions,anti-inflammatories for severe arthritis and they're being fed on the cheapest nastiest food available,are overweight and still being vaccinated annually(yes I know thats a controversial subject).
And of course sometimes what owners say can be taken with a pinch of salt-I always say if I think a dog is overweight especially if its arthritic or has heart problems-as I did last week with a dog with a heart murmur which was very obese-to be told by the owner that he was at the vets last week and the vet said he looks fantastic!Yeah-right!

> to be told by the owner that he was at the vets last week and the vet said he looks fantastic!Yeah-right!

Like you point out that is what they are telling you the vet said.  Sometimes people hear what they want to hear particularly if they are feeling a little uneasy about their own actions :-).  Vets in general, I would say, like to see animals much slimmer than they often are.
I don't particularly agree with you that cheap foods will lead to skin conditions much less vaccination.  Give a sensitive dog the wrong food and they will have problems but I think that is irrespective of cost it is just down to that particular dogs sensitivities.  Again, arthritis is obviously going to be exacerbated by weight but this will be the case whatever is being fed to excess.  This is all down to owners and vets probably do more than anyone else to try to correct it.

>> Like you point out that is what they are telling you the vet said.  Sometimes people hear what they want to hear particularly if they are feeling a little uneasy about their own actions :-).  Vets in general, I would say, like to see animals much slimmer than they often are.

And although that owner did appear to be offended by what I said(and I said it nicely!) I really hope she goes home and has a good think about what she is doing to her dog's health.
Cheap dry foods do tend to have more cereals in them which can cause skin problems(sorry Isobel-I know you give lots of excellent advice on this forum but I really have to disagree with you on this one).And overvaccination is a very controversial subject I know.One of my dogs had a severe reaction to(possibly) her puppy vaccinations(no it wasn't proven that was what caused it but it happened about a week after)-fortunately she survived but it was touch and go for a while.She also had skin allergies all her life-coincidence maybe-I don't know..

> more cereals in them which can cause skin problems

Of course they can, like any other ingredient, but if your dog has no sensitivity to them there is no problem.  In fact I have owned dogs that have had far more problems when not given cereals.

> no it wasn't proven that was what caused it but it happened about a week after

That is were it gets so unscientific.  Puppies get ill and puppies have vaccinations.  The two things happening at the same time does not prove a link after all there was a 1 in 52 chance that it would happen so and as puppies are generally more prone to illnesses than adults probably even shorter odds.
Similarly with skin allergies, there are so many factors but vaccination would not figure too highly in my guesses.  Genes, diet or environment seem more likely to me on that one.

Older dogs do need meat but less of it. All dogs need at least 60% meat to feed ther muscles. in large quantities they cant deal with carbohydrates. and they need the proper exercise dailey to deal with getting rid of toxic build up in their systems. I feed my nearly 13, &10 years old collies now on naturdiet who are as active as if they were 4 years younger and they only look half their age both had done agility and competitive flyball for years.having been on a raw meat bone and pulped veg diet which I think is better. but there digestion enzyme levels have dropped some, as you would expect in dogs of this age so they have enzyme top ups. I still feed raw pulped veg and a 60gram of natural choice mixer every other day to help with elimination along with a little oil and herbs . I have a 6 year old dog who is on pure raw meatand bone diet he gets his pulped veg and fruit & mixer am. bone & meat pm. I also give fish usualy lightly cookedor tinned in oil once a week. I get my raw frpm meat bulmers raw meats old dalby leicestershire, through a local supplier and naturdiet natural choice through berriewoods.