Fudge is 9/12 months old now, and tonight whilst at puppy training classes he bit another pup, he just went for him, during a bit of socialising before class started, he would not let go, there was alot of blood I am really shocked Fudge has never behaved like this before it was very scary. It happened very quickly but seemed to go on for ages, and for no reason, I really can not understand why he did it.
No-one was able to seperate them, and I had to ask someone to get OH who waits in the car park, he managed to get Fudge to let go.
I have just spoken with the dogs owner, he has a deep puncture wound to his cheek, and has some injury to his gum, as well as being swollen, I have told her we will pay for any fee's and we are meeting her tommorow at our vet's. (we use the same vet)
I am totally devastated, still very much in shock and really don't no what to do or how to go forward from here, would be grateful for any advice as to what we should do.
Thanks
Diane

all I can offer is sympathy I'm afraid--I guess most of us will have experienced something similar at some point or another. I'm sure the experts will offer advice shortly, but in the meantime do try to relax a bit, your shock is probably at least as great as the dogs' trauma. At least you have done all the right things with the owner of the other dog and you both seem very cooperative under very difficult circumstances. Good luck for tomorrow.

No wonder you are shocked and upset, as Jay says it is something that has happened to lots of us at sometime and it makes you very careful with your dog around others.
I would ask the vet for advice when you go with the other dog.
Feel for you, let us know how you get on?

Can i just ask, what breed is fudge, and has he shown any aggression before? Did anything hapen with the other dog preceeding the attack? Did the other dog growl/ play too roughly/ stare etc? Sometimes we think an attack is completely unprevoked but we miss the subtle signs of communication between the dogs as its so quick. Its always a real shock when it happens, and its very disheartening - believe me i've been there. It might be worth getting a vet check to make sure there is no medical cause and maybe a referral to a behaviourist to prevent further problems occuring.

The trainer should also of been watching as well, did they notice any signs which lead to this unfortunate incident?

When at the vets i would see if they can take a look at your boy as well, i would for arguements sake if you are happy with it and also trainer and OP of the other dog muzzle your boy in training classes, we have many dogs that have to be muzzled in different classes while they are trained, they also have 1-2-1 behaviour sessions as well outside the classes.

I know that some dogs in our training classes go for an attack, this happens generally between males who we've taken our eyes off for a couple of seconds and they have eye balled each other and then growled before trying to go in at each other. Young males, especially entire ones can get too big for their boots as well.
Another thing i have noticed is if bitches are in season in the classes, this has a major effect on how other dogs behave.

Hi Diane

I'd have Fudge vet checked too in case there is an underlying medical issue with him - while I agree that young adolescent  males can have a  bolshy, cock of the walk attitude around others of their gender and age bracket, IME it's generally all noise and slobber.  When actual punctures are inflicted rather than a nick on the ear or slight graze to the muzzle for example then IMO it's a more serious issue and I'd want to have a proper assessment by the vet first and if all's well with his health status follow on with an in depth assessment by a suitably qualified behaviourist.

regards, Teri

Obviously what he did was serious but like humans dogs do have bad days when they dont want to be around other dogs. Now i can recognise the signs when my dog is like this. I think some one on one training would be good too.

Some good advice given :)

Just to add, are you sure he enjoys his training? Only some dogs can get very stressed out at class, reasons can include other dogs barking a lot, training methods used, too many dogs in one place, etc etc. If for instance your class has more than about 8 owners I'd be thinking about whether it was a good one :)

Vet check up is important - bear in mind some medical problems which may be causes of problem behaviour can only be detected by (for example) a blood test.

Lindsay
x

> I guess most of us will have experienced something similar at some point or another.

I wish those at puppy training had this kind of outlook, some and as yet I do not know who feel Fudge should be PTS, which makes me very sad indeed, I am still in shock and tearful. I know I am not the only owner who's dog has bitten another dog but right now it sure feels like it.

> Good luck for tomorrow

Thankyou xx
Diane

> what breed is fudge

Fudge is a rescue pup from Battersea, he is a crossbreed, Mastiff, Boxer, STB.

> and has he shown any aggression before?

He has had a growl at some dogs in puppy training, some for know reason that I have been aware of, other times if he doesn't like them or they have gotten to close to him and been jumping about or when they have had a bark/growl at him. He plays around with my older dog (Rotti, 5yrs) and if he gets on her nerves she lets him know, my nephew has a Dobbie puppy she is 7mnths again allways behaved nicely with her.

> Did anything hapen with the other dog preceeding the attack? Did the other dog growl/ play too roughly/ stare etc?

Not that I recall, I have been over and over it again and again, we were just doing abit of socialising before class started, there was no noise from either dog.
It is a huge shock as this is so out of character, and today he really does not seem himself.

> It might be worth getting a vet check to make sure there is no medical cause and maybe a referral to a behaviourist to prevent further problems occuring.

Rang our vet first thing this morning, they said neuter him, ( I pretty much knew that was coming ) and they have a one-one trainer and behaviourist I can contact, they did not want to see him, I will speak with the vet today when we go up to say I would like him checked over.
Thankyou
Diane

> The trainer should also of been watching as well, did they notice any signs which lead to this unfortunate incident?

One of the trainers had hold of the other dog, I did not speak to her after it happened she went to the vets with the owner.
But from what I can remember there was no signs.

> i would for arguements sake if you are happy with it and also trainer and OP of the other dog muzzle your boy in training classes

He will not being going back, as I have posted above some of the other owners think he should be PTS. :-(

Diane

> I'd have Fudge vet checked too in case there is an underlying medical issue with him

> IMO it's a more serious issue and I'd want to have a proper assessment by the vet first and if all's well with his health status follow on with an in depth assessment by a suitably qualified behaviourist.
>

Thankyou Teri, I agree whole heartedly and will speak to the vet indepth today.

Diane

>he just went for him, during a bit of socialising before class started

so all the dogs were exited because they've just arrived, on top of this I imagine Fudge has a new found confidence, is finding things exiting and has very little self-control (if he's anything like my Mastiff was at that age).

Unfortunately these things hapen, not nice atall and very shocking to see,but  even nice, polite adult humans can occasionally get in a scrap, why should our dogs be any different?

>some and as yet I do not know who feel Fudge should be PTS

that is a horrible attitude, the damage you mention is minor and if a small dog had caused this, I doubt people would be so mean :( A previous dog of mine caused a lot of damage to a friends dog (he nearly died :( ), but it was never mentioned that my dog should be PTS. From the other point of veiw - my last dog was attacked in my own garden by a loose dog and suffered puncture wounds to his neck, it didn't cross my mind that the other dog should be PTS.

I'm so sorry this has happened and can see why you are shocked!

I had similar totally out of nowhere attack with my girl few weeks ago.
Luckily she was all noise and did not bite but it surely shook me so I can imagine how you feel!

She meets the other dog nearly every day and usually it is him who tells her off (he is little grumpy staffy) and she has never shown any aggression towards him before.
This time they met and suddenly for no reason (to us) she just went for him.
Nobody spotted any signs but there were 4 dogs together playing offlead and only thing we can see could have started her off was this staffy telling my dogs best friend off and she just went for him! Weird thing is that this staffy is known to fight if anybody is up for it but with my girl "screaming " at him he just stood there and kept turning his face away from her! Usually if another dog growls at my girl she is quick to disappear and gives submissive signs so this really surprised me.
But she is going thorugh a phantom pregnancy so has been acting little funny anyway so I'm hoping this is what made her a little hormonal.

I hope everything goes well with the vet visit.

I think it is important to get him back with other dogs so maybe teaching him to wear a muzzle would be something to consider.
This way YOU know he will not be able to bite again and you can relax. As naturally you will now be nervous, which he would inturn sense and it can make him on the edge too.

> Just to add, are you sure he enjoys his training? Only some dogs can get very stressed out at class, reasons can include other dogs barking a lot, training methods used, too many dogs in one place, etc etc. If for instance your class has more than about 8 owners I'd be thinking about whether it was a good one :-)
>

With out stopping and thinking about it my answer at first would of been yes, he loved meeting all the new dogs, but when I do think it through i'd have to admit it's a no, he dislikes the car journey and even more so in the last three weeks i'd say he has struggled, loses focuses and gets distracted by the other dogs, there are more than 8 in the class and he has been getting more stressed, I just put it down to having a few off weeks, its the sit/down, wait/stay kind of stuff he does not enjoy, Fudge can do them easily but does get bored quickly, he likes going through the cones (zig-zagging and doing figure of eights) and being on the move alot, he has lots of energy. As said vet recomends one-one a behaviorist so see what happens later.

> I'd be thinking about whether it was a good one :-)

I've allways liked the man who runs it and my other dog did really well there, but last nights experience has put me off, he did as much as he possibly could, others were not so helpful by means of what they where saying and doing to Fudge.

Thanks
Diane

Hi again Diane

try not to let the negative attitudes of some people from your training classes get you down. All dogs need to learn boundaries and some push these boundaries more than others.  There's every chance that your lad is just a bit more pushy than some of the other dogs there at the moment which doesn't make him a bad dog, simply one who needs more guidance and positive dog to dog experiences with a genuinely dog savvy trainer (therein lies the biggest clue!)

Don't get upset and tearful - there is a reason for his behaviour which you can establish via the vet and / or a trainer who specialises in dog behaviour rather than in turning every pet pup into a robot - once you know the cause you can start working towards the 'cure' :)

Chin up, Teri x

> Chin up

Thanks need this :-)
Do not know if this has any bearing sorry I forgot to mention it, trainer recomended Fudge should wear a full choke collar as he was being quite unruly in the last two sessions so we got him one and last night was the first night he wore it to training.

> try not to let the negative attitudes of some people from your training classes get you down.

I know I shouldn't and I should sadly be used to this with comments we have experienced about Bo for no known reason other than her breed.

I take on board what your saying and I will as you say try to keep my chin up. xx

Diane

> trainer recomended Fudge should wear a full choke collar as he was being quite unruly in the last two sessions

Fudge is being 'unruly' because of his age, he's a 'teenager' and wants faced-paced action, not boring sit & stays while there are loads of fun dogs in the same room, I don't think a choke-chain should be used as a tool to keep hold of a dog in this way.
When Buster hit about 7&half/8 months old I had awful trouble controlling him on walks, he would explode into a big display of play-bows and would buck & flial around like an idoit trying to get to the other dog to play. I found that using a chest harness in conjunction with his collar gave me much more controll over him, so I could concentrate on training him under distraction rather than concentrate on trying to stay on my feet!
I also use a halti, but I wouldn't advise you use one of them with Fudge untill you have seen a behaviourist incase it makes him feel 'trapped' in the presence of other dogs (whenever Buster meets a dog I tuck the little lead from his halti into his harness so he has freedom to move his head wherever he wants without feeling any restraint).

Do not know if this has any bearing sorry I forgot to mention it, trainer recomended Fudge should wear a full choke collar as he was being quite unruly in the last two sessions so we got him one and last night was the first night he wore it to training.

Oh dear. Diane I would leave this class immediately. These days no good training class will allow choke chains to be used, let alone recommend them. Even those that still use old fashioned methods that involve force and punishment usually will not allow choke chains. If Fudge had never had one on before that together with the general stress etc could account for a lot. He's at a difficult age as well. Not his fault, who knows what his background was like, nor your fault, but could well be partly the fault of a bad and outdated training class.

I agree with Marianne that the trainer recommending a choke chain is a worry - TBH I think it probably did impact to some extent on Fudge's behaviour if this was the first time he'd worn one added to being in such a stressful environment (not all dogs like 'classes' anyway - especially indoor ones).

Perhaps when you've had assurance from your vet on the health front you can discuss different options with the behaviourist you're seeing including finding a more suitable trainer/venue and whether or not a halti or gen-con type head collar may be useful along with a normal flat leather collar if you're finding him to be easily distracted etc.  

IME trying to 'force' dogs, any dogs but particularly hormonal youngsters, is a useless exercise (got one on the go myself at the moment LOL) True our dogs want to please but usually themselves first and then us ;) , so better Fudge 'works for his wages' by way of treat rewards when training and lots of encouragement from you than turning it into a battle of wills.

HTH a bit.  As you can see you have lots of support on here for looking to the future with a positive attitude :)
Teri

Hmm, first time wearing choke chain collar Fudge attacks another dog - coincidence?? Me thinks not. Chocke chains are horrible and barbaric and Fudge reacting that way is understandable if he was stressed and in pain.

> Chocke chains are horrible and barbaric

TBF that's not true.  If they are mis-used then yes, that could constitute abuse or cruelty towards a dog but when used correctly - as a 'check' which is their original purpose - then they needn't be 'horrible' and certainly not 'barbaric'.  I've used them in the past and, while not using them now, am of the 'never say never' stance on them if used properly.

In general training classes however I'm of the opinion that the trainer should be better qualified to help new owners overcome undesirable behaviours without the need to bring in a method which could, even unintentionally, distress the dog in any way.  It's worrying how many people choose to use them yet don't even seem to know how to put one on the correct way :(

Apologies.

However, there are many other more effective methods that are kinder.
It worrying that a trainer recommends this to people who are at a training class to learn the correct way to do things with little or no experience of dog training.

It seems as though your current training class may not have had the right attitude, esp for a pup who needs to be encouraged away from aggression. I agree with the other responses regarding the choke chain... any instructor who encourages one IMO isn't on the right track. I have always used a full choke on Storm as it's the only thing she is comfortable in. It took me a whole month of classes to prove this to my puppy instructor and I still got marked down in our final exam for using one- in hindsight I should have just taken the whole thing off and used no lead at all! Anyway, my point is that even though we clashed heads on the matter, I still hugely respected this guy for trying to discourage a type of lead which can be soooo easily misused.

Try not to be put off seeking out a new class, maybe a smaller one that doesn't stress your boy out so much. At the end of the day, dogs will be dogs and stuff like this happens. We can only do so much to prevent it and your job is to now get past it and mould your pup into a non-aggressive gent who you feel comfortable letting play with other dogs. The whole being PTS thing sounds like new puppy owner panic to me... it's completely unrealistic, so please try not to let that play on your mind. It's a horrible thing to have to go through (I have been on the other side) and I can assure you, being supportive of the owners of the pup your's attacked makes a big difference.

> Rang our vet first thing this morning, they said neuter him, ( I pretty much knew that was coming )

please speak to a behaviourist first about this, it could cause huge damage

> they did not want to see him, I will speak with the vet today when we go up to say I would like him checked over.
>

good for you. surely a vet check is the first point of call for this sort of thing? strange that they wouldn't want to see him

Another thing i have noticed is if bitches are in season in the classes, this has a major effect on how other dogs behave.
Surely classes don't let bitches in season in?! How hugely unfair on both the dogs and the bitch. None of my classes have ever done so as its a huge distraction for any entire male dog.

It sounds to me as if the class is a little old fashioned ... I suggest that Fudge was probably stressed (well done you for thinking about how he has been experiencing things in more detail as behavioural problems are often a case of unravelling various scenarios/triggers/causes...:) ).

others were not so helpful by means of what they where saying and doing to Fudge.

Can you say what they were doing to him? I can understand people perhaps being upset but it's not up to anyone else to do anything to your dog ...

A full choke chain may make matters worse as if he starts to associate being in discomfort with training/other dogs etc it certainly won't help...

When you check out the behaviourist, or one to one, do ensure they are members of preferably the APBC http://www.apbc.org.uk/ or perhaps the APDT

http://www.apdt.co.uk/local_dog_trainers.asp as they wont use harsh methods and should do ongoing continued professional development in their work :)

Lindsay
x

> please speak to a behaviourist first about this, it could cause huge damage

My sentiments exactly!

Been up to the vets, met with the owner and saw the dog, he is very bright and bouncy nice and lively back to his normal self she told me, which i'm very pleased with. I paid her bill to date and asked her to let me know how he is getting on and for any further appointments to inform me. I was quite anxious meeting her as I did not know what to expect, but she was fine, she was with her mum too who said its no-ones fault, just one of those things, it put me a bit more at ease, but seing her dog rolling around and acting normal made my day :-).
I also spoke to the vet and said could she check him out, she did apologise, and asked me to take him up an hour later.
We took Fudge back and he was given a good check over, she looked at his injuries (not by the other dog) they were superficial as I suspected. The vet also said Fudge under NO circumstances would be PTS because of this, in her opinion Fudge is ok, she gave me details of a trainer/behaviourist, he also does one-one with them so I will call him first thing tommorow and see what he says.

To be honest the dogs/bitches were all young and we were outside, it was up to the owner of the bitch at the end of the day, my boy who is hyper sensitive to bitches in season didn't even notice. I think had she been causing an upset then they would of been told to leave.

As for dog attacking others, we had a nasty(sorry guys who have them) jack russell who would out of the blue randomly attack different dogs each week as she walked past them, there appeared to be no rhyme or reason for it, one week a Goldie, then mine and then a Wolfie, well all larger dogs than herself.
Anyway they never finished the course, and like a BC on another session they were asked to muzzle their dogs and then they both left, the BC went in for 1-2-1 behaviour sessions, she was a lovely dog,hope they managed to sort her out..

As for the comment about choke chains being cruel,  don't agree if used correctly, for my show work i use a check chain and it gets me the best out of my boy, normally he is wearing a half check chain for walks and obedience.

Good luck Diane, think that your actions are most admirable.

Well done on your for meeting these owners and paying their bill and then also getting your boy looked at. At least you're moving in the right direction for him.

So glad you have had some positive news for a change. To say PTS at this stage is just ridiculous. I don't advocate aggression and I am sure no-one else on this forum does but that would just be a ridiculous reaction. If you feel that you cannot go back to that training class then go to another. To be honest you probably need to be away from the people who were so negative. Fudge needs to work through this experience and hopefully you will be able to relax a bit.

> others were not so helpful by means of what they where saying and doing to Fudge.
>

Oh gosh its going to shock you, it did the vet and us, but it took longer to sink in, having replayed things in my head over and over again. Things happened quickly but slow if that makes sense, and I was in shock.
At first they tried to pull them apart which I did not want as it would make the dogs injuries worse, Fudge had bitten the dog and would not let go, some idiot women was hitting/kicking him and yes now I'm.....sorry words can not describe my feelings, (she is another owner, I think it was her who has suggested he be PTS), they wanted to twist a stick into his collar, for what reason I don't know, instead someone put a chair leg through his collar, it snapped his collar and grazed his neck and shoulder, he is a bit bald there, inside his ear is bruised and i don't know how. The women trainer was yelling "he is killing him". I yelled out for them to get my OH, he ran in and tried to open Fudges mouth, he pinched inside Fudge's cheek and he was then able to pull his mouth open. The atomosphere when we were leaving was indescribable, I knew that we would be talked about, just the way people looked at me in disgust, when I apologised to the group.
As for the choke I won't be using it again, I will wait to see what the behaviourist says.

Thanks for the link I will make sure the man the vet has given me is legitimate.
Thankyou all for your ever super advice and support
Diane

oh thats good diane, it seems things will be fine then. hopefully it was a one off, i hope the behaviourist is positive for you

> they wanted to twist a stick into his collar, for what reason I don't know

diane, the way I get my staffy to let go of anything when she is 'in the zone' is to twist her collar so she has to open her mouth to breathe.  It only takes seconds and is the quickest way I have found of getting her to release.  I use a flat collar with her though, not a choke.

> they wanted to twist a stick into his collar, for what reason I don't know,

to twist the collar and effectively choke the dog into letting go through lack of oxygen :(

> the way I get my staffy to let go of anything when she is 'in the zone' is to twist her collar so she has to open her mouth to breathe.

She opens her mouth when you use this method because you are crushing her windpipe and cutting off her air supply (you're strangling her) and therefore her prioritory is to open her mouth and gasp for air - staying alive is more important to her than whatever she was grabbing hold of.

What on earth does she grab hold of, that requires such a desperate release that you strangle her?

You can open a dogs mouth by putting your tumb & finger (either side, from above) behind the canine teeth, this pushes the lips into the teeth, this causes discomfort and makes the dog open up (can be done a lot more gently for things like inspecting dogs throat when it's choking on a raw-hide chew ). It works on the same principle as the method Dianes OH used - discomfort in the mouth will make the dog open it's mouth - a far better alternative than strangulation!

diane74,
you've had loads of good advice already so I won't go over everything. I note you got the dog from Battersea and I would think that they would offer you some help and support on the behaviourial front as well as advise on who to see next.

They have plenty of experience with bull breeds and crosses because so many end up in rescue and I would think one of their senior behaviourists should be able to offer you some sound advice. I would certainly contact them and tell them about this.

The incident would have been scary for others in the class but all dogs are capable of biting and some just get to that point much more quickly than others, if he gets stimulated and aroused (I don't mean sexually) easily then perhaps this kind of class is all too much for him right now and he's going to have to learn how to behave more calmly in a stimulating environment and around other dogs- that's where the expert help comes in.

Also, staffies and other terrier bull breeds, as well as some other terriers, will hang on if they bite and are then provoked further (hit, shouted at, attempts to choke them off by putting a stick through their collar) the harder it's gets the more they hold on, that's what they were genetically selected to do. A terrier that backs off under attack would have been no good as a working dog. So you are right, the efforts at intervention would probably have increased the intensity of his bite and because bull breed terriers have a very high pain threshold, beating etc.. it won't cow them, it sparks 'em up.

It's a salutary lesson for anyone that owns a terrier and in particular a bull breed terrier. We have that extra responsibility in knowing what they are capable of if they get to that stage. They can be sweet as pie with all humans but some you may have to watch with other dogs. Fortunately you are clearly very responsible and aware and with the right behaviourist you can get this sorted.

I do feel it would be worth at least speaking to a senior behaviourist at Battersea.

Good luck.

> she is another owner, I think it was her who has suggested he be PTS), they wanted to twist a stick into his collar, for what reason I don't know, instead someone put a chair leg through his collar, it snapped his collar and grazed his neck and shoulder, he is a bit bald there, inside his ear is bruised and i don't know how. The women trainer was yelling "he is killing him".

oh my goodness...

well. first off i'd try another training class- this was hardly handled proffessionally and calmly.

secondly, throttling an animal is never appropriate.

you poor thing, i hope your alright after that!

Have heard that a 18 mo Boxer dog that was returned to Battersea was PTS and not even assessed.
The family that had homed him from there had claimed he had a grumble when they returned him
Would have thought he deserved at least an assessment first - unless they didn't have the kennel space or time for rehab :(

> The women trainer was yelling "he is killing him".

Don't think much of a training class where the trainer panics at a dog scrap and doesn't know how to separate them :-o . Good grief chair leg through collar, hitting and kicking - that's really going to help, poor Fudge must be traumatised (to say nothing of you!). I know any dog fight is scary - more the noise than anything, but I would expect a trainer to be able to deal with it, as for the PTS woman - ignore her - some folk see big dogs and immediately over react.

At least the other owner and her mum sound sensible - you did nothing wrong, these things happen but being a responsible owner you will now try to prevent it from happening again - forgive yourself, chalk it up to experience and get some input from a behavourist. Hope you get over it soon.
M x

>> What on earth does she grab hold of, that requires such a desperate release that you strangle her?

when she has her jaws round another dog's neck.  Would you consider that worthy of using such desperate measures?

I wouldn't consider risking my own hand by putting it in a staffys mouth that is in full on attack mode - would you?

As a general rule I avoid situations where measures like this are necessary and as my dog is obedient she will come back to get her lead on when other dogs are around so we don't get into situations like that but when she was younger and turned into a stroppy adult dog we had a few uncomfortable situations and this resolved them.

An excellent post with very useful content freelanceruk.
Having just caught up with Diane's updated info on events I'm shell shocked at events involving other parties which IMO could only have exacerbated the situation :(

I hope you get the help you need with Fudge - this trainer and class clearly cannot provide it.
 

<<some of the other owners think he should be PTS>>

Poor you, no wonder you are stressed out! The other owners should be thinking "there but for the grace of God"--it could happen to any of us. I can't be the only one thinking the trainer has some responsibility to talk to you as well--and not just to say don't bring Fudge back! It's a shame that people will hold his breed(s) against him--would you hear the same if he were a toy breed?

If it were a toy breed, or most other breeds/types, the situation would not have escalated to the extent it did. The other dog's owner appears to have been far more undertsanding than most would be, myself included.

Agree with you lab007 - if it were a toy breed I doubt this would have occurred to this extent because the dog simply is programmed and made differently - of course it is more serious if certain breeds attack in terms of what they are capable of.  And personally , if a dog attacked mine in this way I would be far less understanding since they could well have been killed and almost certainly damaged mentally. ( one of mine was attacked less badly  than this and still bears the mental scars 3 years later!) 

Yeah, we are always being told of 'deed not breed' etc, and that these dogs are great if trained correctly.

Here's a great example of one which is not from 'that element' and I assume well cared for, but still, it's the same end result. Their potential for damage is far higher that other breed, trained or not trained.

Why should other owners have to face these risks?

> Here's a great example of one which is not from 'that element' and I assume well cared for, but still, it's the same end result. Their potential for damage is far higher that other breed, trained or not trained.
>

Fudge inflicted a PUNCTURE WOUND, a wound that any dog could have inflicted.
I am very saddened that there is this sort of attitude on a dog-forum, all dogs can make a mistake or feel forced into biting, it wasn't that long ago when a JRT was one of 2 dogs that killed a baby. All dogs can bite given the right circimstances and if you don't understand that, you really shouldn't have a dog.

Hi lab007 & Honeybee

while I think most dog owners can understand where you're coming from, can we please keep this thread constructive to the OP?  None of us would wish our dog to inflict damage on another any more than we would want our dogs to be injured themselves - we're all here as dog owners and dog lovers, so IMO that's pretty much a given :)

Diane is looking for advice and with that has come support - which I'm sure either of you would want in any circumstances that led to your own dogs being a problem.  Fudge is still very much a puppy - hormonal and over reactive - that's not unusual in most young males so let's not imply that he's beyond help.

There have been plenty of threads discussing certain traits of specific breeds and their crosses where many of us have been very forthright in our opinions but I don't think it is of any benefit for this thread to go down that route.

thanks in advance,
Teri :)

>if it were a toy breed I doubt this would have occurred to this extent because the dog simply is programmed and made differently

I'm sorry, but even toy breeds are dogs and can fight over territory, protection of a valuble resource, fear, self defence etc.. and a toy breed is capable of inflicting a puncture wound.

> one of mine was attacked less badly&nbsp; than this and still bears the mental scars 3 years later!)&nbsp;

When a dog is attacked and sustains a puncture wound it is not a 'bad' attack. OK, it is more serious than a 'telling off' (or is a telling off that was a bit too harsh or got out of hand because all the poeple started beating the dog) but it is not the product of a dog going in for the kill.

>if a dog attacked mine in this way I would be far less understanding since they could well have been killed

the fact is that no dog was killed, a puncture would was sustained.

I have had a dog attacked in this way and understand perfectly that dogs are dogs, there is no way of changing that, and I see no reason for the dog that attacked mine to be killed.

Not too long ago my husband had his ankles attacked by 2 JRT's, there is no point in giong on about 'what if it was a child they attacked, what if they ripped open the childs leg, what if, bla, bla, bla' as the FACTS of the matter were that no serios damage was caused. This should be the case with any dog attack/fight/bite - the FACTS of the incident are important, not all of the 'what ifs' that people stick on the end.

I have mentioned further up the post that a dog of mine nearly killed a friends dog, my dog was not a bull breed/mastiff/terrier or any powerfull dog, he was a small mongrel that looked more like a small greyhound than anything else.

DEED NOT BREED

I agree that big powerfull dogs are capeable of inflicting more damage than small dogs, but here we have a big powerfull dog that in the midst of an attack, while being beaten by the peole around it, managed to inflict a puncture wound, a tiny, insignificant wound compared to what the dog is capable of inflicting - this says to me the dog is not a major, out-of-control liability.

> I'm sorry, but even toy breeds are dogs and can fight over territory, protection of a valuble resource, fear, self defence etc.. and a toy breed is capable of inflicting a puncture wound.
>

mastifflover, I absolutely agree that any dog is capable of inflicting a wound. I just said that certain more powerful breeds would cause relatively more harm. Supposing one of my small toy breed dogs bit another dog, I would take it no less seriously. I would actually take it extremely seriously. My comment wasn't to start a topic of 'deed or breed' Teri - like most people on here I would not suggest any breeds are 'bad'.  Just that, I think it is very worrying, and yes I think a deep puncture wound could have had even worse consequences, and if that happened to my dog I would not have been so understanding. (regardless of the breed of the dog attacking)