http://www.dogmatic.org.uk/index1.html

anyone used one of these? i use a halti on my youngest bitch at the moment and she hates it but doesnt respond to a normal collar, half choke, full choke, and a harness is no use for a dog of this size.
she just hasnt setled with anything i thought this might be better?

I have Dogmatics - have had them for some years. I've found them to be really good. The dogs took a little while to get used to them, but when I used to walk 6 of my RRs together on the moors, I used to leave the Dogmatics on them when they were running about and they seemed comfortable with that.

ETA I've only got the leather ones.

We have used both a halti and a gentle leader with our bernese and gordon setter. The gentle leader was best with the bernese and the halti with the setter.

> We have used both a halti and a gentle leader with our bernese and gordon setter. The gentle leader was best with the bernese and the halti with the setter. <IMG class=qButton title="Quote selected text" height=10 alt="Quote selected text" src="/images/mi_quote.gif" width=20>

i have both a halti and a gentle leader and she has not settled with any she stops and claws at her face :( she has scratches all over her nose, but i have no control over her in a collar either she either slips out of a normal one or just pulls and literally chokes her self on a half choke

> she hates it but doesnt respond to a normal collar, half choke, full choke, and a harness is no use for a dog of this size.

How big is she?
I use a harness and a half-choke collar on Buster (20 months, approx 75kg, 31 inches tall) and a halti with a very light-weight lead only used now for greeting people, I use it to 'steer' his head. I have a long-line and an inch wide leather lead, I have joined the leads at the handles (making a lead with a clip at each end) and I clip the leather lead to his collar and the long-line to his harness, I loop up the slack up to make the leads short for pavement walking.
To start with Buster didn't like the halti, he tried to shake it off, so I put it away for a week, then slowly re-introduced it to him with positive association (have it in sight at dogs meal times, dog sniffs halti gets a treat, dog wears halti in the house gets a treat etc...) then he happily wore it on walks.
With just a collar on I didn't have much control when Buster pulled/lunged so I added the harness and found that to be a brilliant combination for us. I then added the halti to keep his slobbery face away from strangers legs!

I think, especially for heavy/powefull dogs, that no collar/harness will actually stop them pulling, it really is a case of training, training and training you can't afford to let them learn that pulling gets them to where they want to be.
A harness/halti/collar/choke or any combination of these would not have made Buster walk 'nicely' on thier own, his fantastic slack-lead walking (OK, so we're still working on slack-lead walking when dogs are running around him, but he still makes me very proud :) ) is down to LOTS of reward-based training, and I have used the harness/collar as simply somthing to keep hold of him by whilst training.

mahonc:
I know what you mean (noticed after i posted that you said you used a halti, sorry), our bernese doesn't really need it now but the setter does, and she is like yours, clawing at it and it does end up in her eyes, the halti is actually worse for this but she tolerates it better than the gentle leader. I've looked at the website and they look good but I would be interested in people's experience of them too.

ETA: The halti does stop our setter pulling and the gentle leader did the same for the bernese too - the bernese learned not to pull, the setter never learns :-D

she's about 32 inches at the shoulder but quite slight at the moment so prob only weighs about 50 kilos.

i agree wholeheartedly about the training but its getting her to walk forward not rear and not claw her face off is the issue.
i need something shes happy with so she can concentrate to train.

> its getting her to walk forward not rear and not claw her face off is the issue

Ahh poor girlie, she really doesn't like it does she :( I see why you want to find somthing else, if she's that extreme with the halti, the amount of time needed to get her used to it is valuable lead-trainig time wasted.

> she's about 32 inches at the shoulder

wow, I take it she's quite young, so she'll be getting taller than that!!!!

>> she's about 32 inches at the shoulder
> wow, I take it she's quite young, so she'll be getting taller than that!!!!

yeh shes only 20 months at he moment so yes still has growing left to do. but actually breed standard is 28 inch at the shoulder for bitchs 30 for dogs!

i just need to find something that shes comfy in to then train her, shes a bright little thing when she wants.

> yeh shes only 20 months at he moment so yes still has growing left to do

Same age as Buster :) So you are going through the 'kevin' stage too, just when you think the training is all coming together they bring a new trick out of the bag to catch you out (and they normally manage to embarrass you at the same time!).

I hope you get some usefull feedback re. the dogmatic, it can't be any fun trying to walk her with the halti :(

Have you tried a Gencon, which is basically a figure-of-8 collar. They work very well on my lot, especially my delinquent Dobe.

just had a little look at tha online. does it give much control? are they comfortable in it?

and a harness is no use for a dog of this size

I walk our 60 kg-pyrenees on a harness, absolutely no problem at all.

You could try a harness and normal collar, then clip one end of a double ended lead on the harness and the other end on the collar. This gives you alot more "stearing power" and often makes it easier to make dogs walk nicely as they are better balanced and you have two contact points that you can influence.

I have used the dogmatic for our pyrenees in the past and it was very good, though Troy didn't like it.

> and a harness is no use for a dog of this size
>
> I walk our pyrenees on a harness, absolutely no problem at all.

but does he twist and turn and use his strength against you? thats the problem if a dog of this size uses their strength you have no control on a harness at all.
Fine foe little uns, chi's, say or staffs but if a 50 kilo dog pulls you have no control with a harness

Re the Gencon, it gives a great deal of control. As mentioned my delinquent Dobe walks very well on it and is more comfortable than on other headcollars (and I've tried them all believe me + harnesses!). Her mother, however, doesn't much like it, although she does tolerate it. Most of my dogs walk well on a normal collar but they all, bar one, wear Gencon's for safety sake. As I walk 4 together I want to be able to control them if they see a cat or something equally interesting and the Gencon gives me that control.

If you've got one that spins, go for the Gencon headcollar and attach a normal lead to it, rather than the all-in-one which just twists itself.

HTH - Karen

thank you i will look into that. anything to make her more comfortable she so loves going out but she hates wearing it and it ends up such a bad experience for her.
She shakes when we are getting ready to go out at the moment shes so anxious about it poor lady.

And you can also use it as a normal slip lead, if and when she learns to walk nicely, but at least you still have the back up if needed.

I use a Canny Collar,

http://www.cannydogcollar.co.uk/

Personally I don't like headcollars where the lead attaches under the dogs chin. The canny attaches behind the head so doesn't pull the head to one side or risk any neck injuries.

It is really easy to fit and only takes a few seconds . It has a collar that buckles up just like an ordinary collar and then a loop which just slips over the nose, this is attached to the lead.  It's really secure, the dog cant back out of it and even if the got the nose band off you still have a safe collar, it's also very strong, and gives great control.
It also comes with little clips so that the nose part can be slipped off and attached to the collar when it's not needed. It doesn't really tighten just puts a little pressure on their nose.

I can't recommend it enough. :-)

> I walk our 60 kg-pyrenees on a harness, absolutely no problem at all.
>
> You could try a harness and normal collar, then clip one end of a double ended lead on the harness and the other end on the collar. This gives you alot more "stearing power" and often makes it easier to make dogs walk nicely as they are better balanced and you have two contact points that you can influence.
>

That's what I do with Buster, it's fantastic, you can control the body & the neck together or independantly.
I'm glad I've heard of somebody else using this combo :-) I was starting to think that maybe I was the only one, I was getting a bit self-concious of it, LOL.

I've also used the Gencon all-in-one with the handle end (some have the clip attachment there) attached to a harness (attached at the front not between the shoulder blades), which works well with dogs that don't like anything on their nose. They are basically walked on the harness, with the back-up of the Gencon for sudden "cat" moments!

I have a leather dogmatic for my Bernese and it works really well. Did start with a halti and it pulled in the wrong places on him and offered no support. I know someone in my breed with a fabric dogmatic and she said she wishes she got the leather one now as they offer more support to the dog and also more control for the owner.

I have the fabric dogmatic having tried the halti ,gentleleader and k9 bridle ( good but too fiddly for me) . It fits my gsd well doesnt ride up and gives me control. I would however say he is not as happy with it as I would like and we are still working on it and his lead training , trouble is he is strong and prone to lunging to get somewhere and at 40kg I cant manage him if that happens.If you dog is not comfortable with the ones you have tried I wonder if the dogmatic being still around hui face would be any better ?

I started with a halti, didn't like it, it rode up around my GSD'S eyes. I then tried the dogmatic (leather), very nice, but needed replacing every 12 months, leather perished - very expensive. I now use the gencon headcollar. Wouldn't go back to anything else. Nice fit, easy to put on & take off, reasonably priced too, & I have been using mine for over 2 yrs. still in perfect condition.

i used the gentle leader, but didnt like it, found ir went up into my boys eyes, then tried dogmatic and loved it! seemed a comfy fit, my boy didnt mind it, and it gave perfect control (i only need it at shows or very busy areas as he tends to get a wee bit excited!) only problem with it i found is that he chewed through 2 of them :(  at shows, when i turned my back for a few minutes to talk to someone unbeknown to me he had got the loop underneath into his mouth and bit through it. was ok, he didnt run off, and i bought a new one, then 3 months later he done it again, doh! so i then bought a gencon, but he hates it, so cant be too comfy...feel a bit mean when i put it on.

I use a dogmatic halti on my year old aussie couldn't hold him before when he pulled he is a totally different dog with it on. I put a piece of sheepskin on the nose area and if you show the dog it dosen't flatten the hair so much when using it just before going into the ring. couldn't do without it now.

Hi, I completely agree with Hugos There.  Our GR pulled like crazy on an ordinary collar and harness and we took advice from Brainless on this site re Canny Collar.  Can't recommend enough.  He's now a pleasure to walk. 

How well does the gencon fit? I was looking at the pic and wondered if it could be problem riding up a long nosed dog  in my case gsd ?

gencon is fine on my gsd it doesn,t ride up into her eyes and when we are past cat territory I usually just take the loop of her muzzle and use it as a slip lead.
I,ve also used the dogmatic with a double ended lead one attached to her collar and one to the dogmatic(their non slip leads are really good) I use the leather dogmatic and just clean it with saddle soap every now and again.
The only thing is people think she,s wearing a muzzle if she has the dogmatic on whereas with the gencon its hardly noticable as she has a very dark mask.

Thanks,yes i know what you mean about thinking its a muzzle but the one I've cot is coloured so looks less llike one. May give the gencon at try too would be better if I could guarantee that he would lunge at something or pull. Still he is only 2 so maybe one day.

I have used the Dogmatic, a leather one. Make sure you soften up the leather before use. It was great and the only way I could walk my GSD. She hated it but got used to it in time. She tried the face clawing thing and rubbing her face on the ground but was better than any of the others we had tried. It was the only one which did not raise up into her eyes. Maybe the soft padded fabric one might be more comfy.

A big thumbs up for the Dogmatic from me as well-definately the headcollar my BSD tolerates the best.

I used the leather Dogmatic to lead train my 60 kg Briard. She hated anything that went around her face, but with several weeks of wearing it in the house for short periods and associating it with good experiences she gradually came to accept it. The Halti wasn't suitable as it rode up around her eyes which she absolutely hated. I found that with regular cleaning and conditioning with saddle soap I still have it 4 yrs later. Albeit I don't need to use it anymore, but perhaps one day in the future ;-)

Yes the Dogmatic worked well with one of our bitches. The Halti wasn't a success with our bracycephalic breed as it seemed to rub under her eyes and make her sore. No such problems with the Dogmatic, and once she'd got the hang of not pulling (about 6 months), she did OK without it. Now she's completely reliable on an ordinary lead.
Hope it works for you.

I love the dogmatics - use them with mine and just putting it on stope them pulling. It dosen't punish the dog by tightening up like the pet shooop products so they don't fight it or panic and it dosen't ride up their eyes - it just seems to sit nicely and comfortabley and simply calms them down.  The dogmatic also seems to works to calm my boy down when there are bangs or situations that stress him out too so frequently even though mine walk well now on a flat collar I still use it on walks just because it seems to relax him.

I loved the leather ones so much I bought the fabric ones too for the wet weather so I don't need to clean them or treat them.

i use the leather dogmatics on both my boys, 50 kg dane & 57 kg rottweiler. they both like the dog matic and are happy to wear it. they even wear it off lead when we have got to the fields & neither even seem to notice they are wearing it.
ive got to say as well that Callum has had his 3 yrs & it is still in great condition, Harry has had his for a year & it was second hand when we got that. it is quite an old design by the look of it as there is no buckle, you just feed the strap through the catch, much more lightweight than Callums. but both are sturdy 7 i feel safe when walking my boys.

One word of warning, if the dogmatic is left on while the dog is off lead.... my GSD (only twice) managed to put his paw through the loop which hangs down. Luckily he was never far away from me, think he was sniffing the ground at the time & just had his paw in the wrong place at the wrong time. Could do some damage though, if the dog was travelling at speed?

thanks for that. Callum never does anything at speed- but i think  will remove Harrys in future whle he is off lead. its just useful to keep t on if i need to keep hold of him quickly for any reason.
vdefinately rethought tho.

I used to use a halti on my dobermann, but I bought a dogmatic and it has worked very well for him, he is now 5 and has had his dogmatic for about 3 years.  It doesn't ride up over his eyes like the halti would.

Im wondering what size to use on my boy Mason it says size 6 for Bordeaux, but ive measured his neck and its 27'' over the size 6. I like the synthetic leather ones in black. Tried a halti in the past and it worked, but would go in his eye. I stopped using it as i would rather use training methods to have him stop pulling that something to avoid it. Hes so bloody stubborn and resiliant i cant manage to walk all 3 of them at the same time, its just enough to have me slightly out of control and he thinks hes the one directing and will sometime think were going one way and walk out first infront of me. Ive read the reviews which all sound promising. Ill get a size 7 and send it back if it doesnt fit him.

Louise

> Ill get a size 7

Sounds like it should fit OK. You could try phoning them at Dogmatic and see what they advise. I think that's what we did and they were very helpful. Have your tape measure to hand for when you get through. We had the synthetic leather one and it has lasted well. Hope it works for you.

Our bitch is smaller than your Mason but she could still pull like a train! I think you are very brave to try to walk 3 at a time - we take our 4 out in two lots of two. They are pretty good these days but if they see a squirrel, pigeon etc, they still try it on :-o.

Masons the only one that pulls, the naughty sod.

Cats, rabbits or the odd pheasant send them off. We have started having him running along the bikes to drain abit of his energy off. He pulled me in the road the other day on it so i want a little more steer on his head which should be taken care by this. He could go forever but hes a more athletic type, to look at him curled up asleep now you wouldnt think so, but he makes my arm ache sometimes.

Louise

That's weird my dobermann is called Mason too!!!

I'm a bit late replying, but just had a thought - have you tried completely re-training her. in the garden and the house, off the lead, using treats as an inducement to 'walk nicely' or some-such? 
You could try having a few days where you don't have to worry about how she is on the lead - just get out for a walk
or maybe don't take her for a walk at all and concentrate on ENCOURAGING her to walk next to you in the home/garden,  [without any command] and  giving her lots of rewards for the slightest response.  If you don't have any other problems with her it may be that she just doesn't understand what you want.
It may also help if you think of her as either a puppy or a rescue dog that has problems walking on the lead - that way you may be able to feel less frustrated with yourself.
Personally, I've found the Canny Collar great but only as an aid when my dogs know [pretty much] how to 'walk nicely', be 'steady' [especially going downhill/steps/rocky bits] - they need to have some idea what I'm talking about first.
Don't forget, you've got a juvenile too - they tend to forget pretty much everything for a while - just eep up the good work.