I have had a litter of large breed pups born between Thursday night and Friday morning.

Mum looked tired after the 7th, her contractions did not look as strong, I did not want her to tire or get into problems, and so within the hour of her last pup being born we took her to the vets in the middle of the night.  The vet x-rayed her, the pup was too big to come out of its own, and so mum had a c-section.  Unfortunately the pup died. 

But even worse the pup had torn mum twice in her uterus, the uterus contents had spilled into her abdomen leading to an infection similar to one people get when their appendixes burst.  Despite antibiotics via injection, via mouth, and via her IV drip nothing could be done to save mum.

Her fever spiked and we lost her yesterday.

We were in such shock that we thought that we could raise the pups alone. 

I have purchased the milk substitute from the vets in place of the one you can get from pets at home.  The pups are sucking well, and would eat far more than their bellies would take.  They are happy and content little things.  We started the hour and half feeding regime as of yesterday late afternoon (it takes not much less than this to clean them and get through them although they are a lot better now as they know what the bottle is).  I know that I should not have expected their weights to have increased since their morning weight check, but even then I was very disappointed.

I am being advised to seek foster mums.

All of the pups have homes confirmed prior to mum's conception and thus I best add that I am also not advertising via the forum.

But I am very worried.  These pups are VERY precious to me.  I am retaining at least the little girl.  If we foster them we only want them to go to experienced breeding homes in which the breeder does not leave their pups.

Am I asking too much?

I have had one offer of possible help for a couple of pups, and I could try to phone around. 

But I really need some advice on what to do as well as some offers.  Because I know if we make the decision to do this we will have to be able to comply with it fast.

We have 1 girl and 6 boy pups.  I live about 40 miles from Leeds, around 60 miles from Liverpool, around 25 miles from Lancaster, and around 110 miles from Stafford and Nottingham.

I am still in shock from losing mum, and so please excuse me if I do not seem very sure as to what to do.

Thank you in advance for all help

how awful for you! i thought that lactol could be given 4 hourly as it is so rich but maybe thats when they are a bit bigger? sorry i cant be any help but good luck with them

Thank you for replying! 

I know the pups cry to go to the toilet every 2 hours, and so we are swapping to two hours.

But they have not put on weight / possibly lost a tiny bit (which usually I would not worry about too much in the first 48 hours as I would just top it up if mum's milk was not yet great, or take the greediest pup off the best nipple and put this one on) on this regime.  I only usually purchase the one from pets at home (Shirley's Lactol ... not a pets at home brand I best add) as I never really ever use it (maybe only a tiny bit for one pup or so in the first 48 hours in a random litter), but after speaking to a reproduction vet I was led to believe that the whelpi one is a little bit better, and I want my pups to have everything in their favour.

So I would worry about having any more than 1/2 hour off between starting the whole process again. 

i'm so sorry for your loss. i hope you get a fosterer soon

I've used this product and admittedly not to hand raise pups.
But have had very good results with Osmonds Lifesaver Puppy Milk Replacer when weaning pups onto solids etc.
You may also be wise adding this to your shopping list Osmonds Lifesaver Puppy Colostrum if pups didn't get any from their mum
before she passed. Although not sure on how long after being born it's usefullness is.

Purchase them here http://www.petcetera.co.uk/acatalog/Osmonds___Reproduction_and_New_Borns.html

There is a lady that specialises in hand rearing puppies and it may be worth talking to her.
I can't remember her name but I'm sure someone else here would be able to give details.

So sorry for your loss

Thank you for your kind comments, and for the link. I would extremely appreciate it if someone could list the ladies details, as I would love to have an opportunity to talk to her.

My partner and I have been talking, and I thought that I best add that the weight comparisons were a comparison of their weight as taken yesterday morning and this morning.  Whereas in reflection they have not yet been on the new milk for 24 hours, and thus maybe for the time being it is hard for us to get an accurate opinion on how they may do on this milk.

The pups were on their mother just prior to her c-section, and after she came around from her anaesthetic.  The vets thought that she was just suffering from such extensive surgery, and they said that it was important to keep the pups with her to maintain the bond and her milk let down.  Although they were bottle-fed, they still nuzzled into her and comfort sucked, and she was still giving milk to them. 

It was not until she threw up after drinking that they realised that this was more than postoperative sickness.  Which is when on top of the antibiotics that they had injected and gave via mouth they decided to add more to her IV fluids, and jab her with more, and they planned to put her on a 2-hour injection scheme.  But her fever spiked fast, and she even threw up her IV fluids.  She went from poorly and cleaning her puppies to being on deaths door to dying within literally about an hour.

Her pups were with her right up until this hour.  So they did have a good day and half with her, and thus they should have got the most important milk. 

I think this is the right contact no for the lady who rears orphaned puppies - her name is Heather Ridley tel no  01945 450475and she is the expert in this field and would give them any help needed.  I believe she lives in Wisbech.

(Taken from a post on CD early last year).

Good luck.

Thank you!

I will try her now

Unfortunately unless we drive down south for over 4 hours to talk to her in person she is not prepared to give any advice over the phone in case we decide to sue her?  When we asked her if we were doing the right thing using whelpi as opposed to Lactol she said neither, but was unprepared to advise us what to use in case we sue her (which we would never do).

She did say that we could send someone round, and that she would give the advice to that person who could then relay it to us? 

I appreciate the thought of you coming up with her name, but unfortunately we are still at square one.

sorry you are unable to get help locally..

I have hand reared 3 litters.. one of 10, a litter of 11 pups.and my last litter of 9. all survived.. I cant advise you.. but can only tell you how I managed..

I did try Whelpi, but found pups had a tendency to have the runs (not dire, but more than I would like at such a young age) I bought Lactol, and have used lactol for the past 6 years.. Lactol I also found dissolved much easier and quicker than whelpi, and didnt clog up the feeding teat as much as Whelpi did...

Your pups are large breed pups.. they are perfectly able to suck from a babies bottle with a medium flow teat, the one I use are Tesco's own brand.. 3 for £1.20(ish) and have worked for me over these three litters, plus a couple of litters who required topping up...

I never limited the pups to certain mls per feed, I allowed them to suckle from bottle till full.. after all, this is what they would do with mum.. I found once they had had their fill, would spit teat out.. place pup back, and start on the next one... I did this roughly every 3 hours for the 1st few days, then cut back to every 4 hours (including during the night..

do not tip pups onto backs to feed (as you would a human baby) just rest pup on a towel on your lap, and make sure bottle is on top of tongue.. pup may wriggle and squirm to get into its prefered feeding position.. allow them to do this, not all pups feed in the same position..

I wish you all the best of luck..

just caught up on this. Has anyone heard how this poor ladys pups are doing? What a terrible shame:(

Thank you very much for getting back to me.  You in conjunction with another couple of breeders who have got back to me have made me feel a lot better! 

I am more than prepared to put the hard work in.  I barely sleep in the first week of a pup's life anyway as I sleep next to mum's box for the first 3 weeks, and the slightest squeak has me peeking at the box.

But at the same time I did not want to make a choice that put my puppies at any risk.  Which is why I was worrying about what people's personal experiences were in terms of hand rearing a whole litter.  Prior to my last post the last person I personally spoke to left me with the impression that hand feeding would lead to the whole litter passing away.  Which as you can probably imagine worried me immensely.

In addition to this I had spoken to someone within the breed who is aware of litters nationwide, and they are currently unaware of anyone with a suitable litter, as is another breeder who is known for being extremely helpful and insightful in circumstances such as this.

However since speaking to these people my partner has since spoken to another lovely lady who I know who is also within the breed, and her advice and experiences have been extremely helpful, as she has (as have a couple of her friends) successfully reared orphaned large litters.  She is also aware of another lady who is due to have a bitch that is going to be hopefully whelping within the next 48 hours.  So if we look to have a puppy or two that looks to not be doing well we can hopefully let her girl foster them.

I really appreciate the advice on whelpi and the bottles!  I am going to purchase the new bottles tomorrow, as the supermarkets are now unfortunately closed due to being a Sunday.  Having the runs is the last thing that my puppies need right now.

I have plenty of lactol in as well as the whelpi, and I even have some puppy colostrum powder in (it is part of my just in case pack).  However I am loathed to use the latter as it is very thick, and looks rather dehydrating if used too much.  Plus I am sure that it is only of some use if used within the first 24 - 48 hours.

The puppies are very content.  They are quiet in between feeds, with only a few chirps starting up 5 minutes before the next feed commences.  During toilet time they wiggle with disgust as they try to speed on the moment in which they are fed.  When being fed they paddle to their hearts content.  They now know that I mean food, and they have been seeking me as opposed to thinking that I am getting in the way of their search for mum since late this morning.  You are totally correct in that they all have their little way of wanting to feed.  They are funny little things.

I let them feed to the point in which they were not that bothered this time.  They took in up to 4 ml more than they were supposed to according to the guide lines on the box. I will watch their toilets to make sure that they are not being overly greedy especially just in case the milk is too rich to allow them to do this.  At the moment they are doing very well in that department, and in fact are looking better than when they came off mum.  But I suspect ingesting her very strong antibiotics may have affected these.

I know that this is a critical time, and that I should take each day as it comes.  I will keep checking the board, and I will try to keep you updated.

Once again thank you to everyone that has posted.

Really sad and sorry to read this, you must be going through such a massive range of emotions just now.
I have a friend who lost her rottie bitch after a large litter, she managed to raise them all by hand. Would it help if I asked her for advice? She lives Barnsley way.
(((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))) for you and puppies x x

Thanks very much, we have spoken to a couple of people who have raised litters by hand and so far the pups are doing well, tahnsk again for everyones offers of help & support

Aww so sad.  I am so sorry.

Good luck :)

Although I don't have a bitch with milk - wish I could help you!  Just wanted to say I think you're doing everything right, and wanted to wish Good Luck in abundance.  I've hand reared on Lactol, but a toy breed so not such hard work as you have ahead of you.  We are all rooting for you.  :-)

as for the lady worried about being sued, surely if she gave the same advise in person you could still sue her? what makes her think that she can only be sued for phone advise? what a poor show from her and how worrying to think a person is more worried about being sued than saving a litter of puppies. just wanted to rant

Sadly Tina, giving advice is not easy.. since none of us are qualified to give advice, we can leave ourselves wide open to all possibilities ... I myself did not give any advice, I only relayed how I dealt and coped with hand rearing..

We have no idea how these little babes will fare, but Hopefully, they will be strong and come through.. many people have managed to successfully hand rear.. and I am sure this lady will also..

> what makes her think that she can only be sued for phone advise?

she is not qualified..even a vet will not give advice over the phone without having 1st met the owner or pups..

Hi,

Firstly so very, sorry for the loss of your girl, what a terrible thing to happen.

Quite a few of us on here have needed to hand rear our pups myself being one, I reared mine on Whelpi by 2.5 weeks I began weaning, the pups were nice and stocky reared on the whelpi.

I'm just one of those people who does not constantly weigh my puppies, they are weighed at birth and then once a week, if your pups are feeding and feel nice and plump in the hand constantly worrying about this one not putting on as much as that one etc, etc, would give you worries when there is no need.

If there are no surrogate bitches around which would be a Godsend for you then rearing them yourself is hard work I agree, by the time you have finished it is time to start again it is very tiring as it is round the clock work, but you don't need to panic and think you can't do it.

What you do need is to cat nap as much as you can, and if you can bring in neighbours and friends (surprising how many people will help if you ask) to do some day feeds so that you can sleep ready for the night feeds or vice versa you are soon in a routine, the two and a half weeks go by quickly and early weaning gives you those couple of hours repreive.

There is no reason why these pups will not be healthy, well fed and nice bouncy stocky puppies, it will be hard work, but you can do it, don't panic, don't worry, many of us have pulled this off and it is worth every second of sleep deprevation to have beautiful pups at the end of it.

Good luck we are here on the site for you. :-)  You can do this!

I also hand reared a litter of cocker spaniels,  5 pups,  all survived, I used Litterlac milk.  Thankfully I did have mum doing all the cleaning and toilet business, just poor mum didn't have a single drop of milk.  It's very very tiring, but so worth it when you see those lovely chunky pups running around.

Good luck!

Hi,
I have been hand rearng my litter ,4 puppies which does make it easier . I use boots newborn bottles the teats are not too hard puppies took to it easily , I began feeding 2 hrly then 3 now onto four now weaning and learning to lap.
I am so sorry you lost Mum you must be devastated making the work twice as hard . Fortunately for us Mum is well  although she lost her milk which is why I am hand rearing.
I do keep a chart of weight have done for all my litters I found it helpful to look back to compare the weight with the hand fed puppies ,they are in fact a pound or two heavier at the same point bottle fed than Mum fed  this is on the puppies which were of a simlar weight as my existing litter.
I also let them have what they want they soon push the teat away when full also make sure you wind them until they do a little burp and make sure they are all toileted BEFORE you feed.

Thank you to everyone who has posted! Your posts have meant a lot to both of us!  We are extremely grateful to everyone who has offered advice, or shared tales that have installed confidence in terms of hand rearing the puppies.

After loosing mum we were still in a lot of shock yesterday, and although still extremely sad we are both now able to view the situation with bit clearer minds.  

Thank you for the advice on bottles.  I do find the veterinary ones a little hard for the poor mites, and thus I am very pleased to read that we can use an alternative. 

The pups have being pooped prior to and after feeding, plus winded after eating as I am trying to prevent colic, and their toilets over building.  But thank you for the tip!  Something like this is so easy to over look, and the vets for one did not think to advise on this.  I feel like I am spending longer cleaning them than feeding them sometimes, as they are popping lots.  But their bellies for the time being are looking good.  For the time being we are going to try and not worry about their weights.  But I did weight them for piece of mind, and I am very pleased to report that all have put on a small weight increase.  The exact same for each pup although one pup may have looked to have done a little better.

The puppies are already used to the routine, and if they need to go to the toilet they relax in my hands, and if they don't they tell me via their squawks of disgust.   They are very wiggly, very happy, lovely and quiet between food times, but their alarm clocks seem to be getting earlier via a couple of minutes as they are chirping a tiny bit earlier than when my alarm goes off.

I wish Starryeyes loads of luck with hand rearing as well! 

Sorry, but I have no experience of having to hand rear. I just wanted to add my condolences and hope pups do well.

No experience of hand rearing pups but have hand reared a kitten from approx 10 days...hard work but very rewarding....best of luck. 

a friend of mine tube fed a litter,
sorry i dont know how to,
she said her vet showed her and it was a lot quicker and easier once shown how to do it,
maybe your vet could show you how to do this,
good luck
jayne
xx

So sorry about your bitch.

Hope your pups are continuing to do well. All the best.

i just want to wish you and your babys all the luck in the world ,ive never had to do it but we have 2 girls from the same litter and their mum died .The breeder said just how much hard work it was ,she had 9 and didnt loose any ....so i hope that will give you lots of hope ....

good luck xx

im sorry i didnt see this sooner but if you can get to devon i have a bitch with pups  and would be prepared to take them on for you. PM me if it helps.

So sorry to hear of the loss of your bitch. It must be so hard coping with your grief and worrying over raising the puppies.
It sounds like you are doing a great job! Best of luck.

sorry to hear about the loss of your bitch.

I have hand reared twice, I have pomeranians, as long as you check the stools for undigested milk, whatever formula your feeding should be ok, if there is undigested milk curds in the poo the formula is too strong, dilute it,  when handrearing everything must be kept sterile, try to cat nap between feeds, at first its feed, poo, pee, wind  and vice versa but as the days go by you get into a routine and you go on auto pilot.

I winded my pups by putting a face cloth on them like a shawl and patting the back, i didnt put them back to sleep till i got a burp, as there is nothing worse than colic

Try to get someone in to help with the household chores so that your not over exhausted.

Good Luck, I wish I could help.

Thank you for your responses, well wishes, and tips!  I am sorry that I have taken so long to reply.  But I have been very busy with the litter.  There just does not seem like there is enough time in the day.

Thank you very much to the person for their offer as well!  Since reading this board and speaking to people within the breed who have successfully raised puppies as well as a fertility expert we have decided to hand raise the puppies with an aim to only surrogate if one or more looks to be going down hill.  But anyway once again thank you from the bottom of my heart for such a kind offer!

The puppies are now 8 days or 7 ½ days of age (depending upon when they were born), they are still happy puppies, and they look to be putting on weight. 

The tip on the bottle was an excellent one.  We bought one that is supposed to be designed to help prevent colic, and only when the milk level has got low and I have been slow to tip it up on two occasions has a puppy audibly gulped down some air.  I feel like I am forever washing my hands, and I am extremely grateful as a result towards one family member who has purchased me a lovely hand cream.

I would not dare tube feed the puppies.  Only if it was a last resort and a vet had shown me how to do it would I consider it.  But even then I would be extremely concerned about getting it wrong and placing it down the wrong hole.  The pups are strong little suckers.  Drinking the milk only takes a little bit of time.  It is cleaning before and after and placing sudocream on their bellies, and cleaning the bottles and making the milk up that takes the longest.

Thank you very much to the person for the tip on watering the milk down.  I have felt so tired I could not see the wood for the trees.  I did wonder if the mixture was too rich, but I followed the guidelines on mixing it to a T, and because I knew that the pups have been drinking more than they should be doing, and because my vet had stated that they thought that this was to blame (he very kindly rang up the other day to check on how the pups were doing, and we ended up talking for around ½ hour which is pretty good going when you consider how pricey vets can be if you go over a consultation time in the surgery) I had been rather unsuccessfully messing around with the amounts they were drinking as opposed to the mixture itself.  I checked the boards a few hours ago, but was unable to find time to post then, but have since tried this tip and I am very pleased to report that the pups are already looking far nicer (touch wood) back there.

I will try to keep you all updated on the pups.  But is going to be hard going for the next couple of weeks. I have already decided that that we will be continuing for a while yet with feeding them every 2 hours (as opposed to swapping to every 3 as per guidelines from day 8 ... although I may have place them on a couple of 2 ½ hour intervals in the silly hours of the morning), as I know little and often is the best thing for them.  I am being run a little bit ragged, but they are worth it, and I want to do everything that I can for my special girl's babies.

Would just like to say well done to you for keeping your pups alive. I know you will be grieving for your loss, whilst trying to deal with the pups. I wish you all the best and much success.

good luck, keep us posted.
It is so demanding, but its worth it in the end.
andrea
when im handrearing pomeranians I use a kitten formula mix & a kitten feeder, in an emergency I drip feed with a syrynge, each day you have them survive is a blessing.

Andrea

How is the hand rearing going?