I have a 15 week old Pit Bull/Bull Mastiff pup that is perfect in every aspect except that when he gets under our bed and i try to pull him out he is very reluctant and begins to bark and growl. He's not showing any teeth or growling very deep to the point that i feel he's vicious or anything.

Whenever he's bad i station him in a corner of the room for a few minutes without any social contact or attention. He HATES it!! My theory is that maybe he's growling because he thinks i'm going to station him and he doesn't want to go. Maybe he feels safe under the bed and a little more confident since i have to crouch down to his level to get him out. Furthermore, the fact that i have to pull him out by the collar (which is attached to his neck of course) doesn't help calm him down.

When he growls at me i encourage him to lick my hand by saying "kisses" lest he tries and attacks me. It's worked so far and it always calms him down when he licks my hand.

This is the first dog i've ever had that has exhibited this kind of behavior. But then again, i rescued him from a backyard breeder who i suspect was breeding puppies to fight so he may be genetically predisposed to aggression.

I was just wondering if anyone else has encountered this before in any of their dogs?

Rob,
What's you're describing is fairly common...even in adult dogs. I've seen it in dachshunds and other small breeds who like to go under things either as a resting place, or a retreat from stress.

IMO, it's better to either let the dog be, or lure it out with something interesting -- food, toy, leave the room, pretend something else is much better than him, ignore, etc.... "luring" the dog out doesn't have to be overt. It can be simple as dropping a piece of bread next to your foot when you're reading a book. Ooops :rolleyes:

Pulling a puppy/dog out by force can be painful to him + it puts you on a level of physically competing with him. Your face is next to him. You're staring, and you're not giving him anywhere to retreat to that would defuse the situation. Allowing him to lick your hand is a de-stresser, but my personal belief is to not let a situation develop in the first place...especially when you know what will upset him.
Don't set a dog up for predictable failure, is a motto of mine :rolleyes: ;) :P

If you don't want him to be under the bed, put some boxes or wood down so he can't go under in the first place. Otherwise, just let sleeping dogs lie :)
**************************

Oh, btw, if you are this concerned with his "predisposition towards aggression", you either need to go ahead and give him up or shelve this worry permanently in the back of your mind. You really run the chance of the "self-fulfilling prophecy" if you believe his genetics will make him this way and that your 'nurture' will not affect anything about him :(

He's a puppy right now. He'll be testing you in ways that you won't predict. Especially when he hits adolescence. It's normal. If you're thinking that every little growl or disobedience relates to his family tree, you'll be fighting a loosing battle from the start :(

Instead of focusing so much on pack theory, perhaps you should start researching the various training methods, so you have an idea of what exactly you want to do when you start 'formally' training him.
Check out your local AKC groups to see what's offered. Online sites abound for LI. :) I"m sure there are some good trainers out there that can help you get started BEFORE major problems develop. An ounce of prevention etc.. :D :D :D

It will give you a better sense of confidence, especially if you find a good puppy training course that helps you to move into the young adult obedience. A basic course is not expensive at all... somewhere around $30 for 8 weeks...usually there's a discount for the various levels if you prove your dog has been altered.

I hope you take this advice in the good spirit that I'm telling you. :) I'm not wanting to be bossy or authoritative. It just seems as if you're fascinated with the general theory of dogdom where you actually need to taper the focus down to an individual application where your your puppy is :)
best wishes,
toodles

If it were mine I would make sure it did not get under the bed, but not being perfect, if it still managed it I would ignore the problem, because I don't like starting something I can't win. Think you may find if the puppies action is ignored once or twice it will stop doing it as there is no profit in it. Ja:)kie

Thanks for the advice jackie and eoghania, i'll give it a try! =)

I only posted the thread because i was interested in what other people might have to say. This is the first dog i've ever had who's ever growled under the bed. I've never encountered the situation before and figured i'd come on here and see if anyone had some good advice.

I'm not really too concerned about it because he's extremely well trained and obedient in every aspect. I figured it was a common problem but just wanted to make sure.

I've been 'formally' training him for weeks now and he's shown remarkable progress. In fact, i dont think i've ever seen any of my dogs learn as fast as he did. By the time he was 12 weeks he knew sit, lay down, speak, high five, heel, jump, and stand. Furthermore, he's totally potty trained and rarely goes in the house. At night time when we sleep he has learned to go on newspaper on the floor. In fact, he came to us that way at the age of 5 weeks somehow. He didn't perfect it, however, until about two days later. When he needs to go out he rings a bell on the door by biting it and barking at it. Basically what i'm trying to establish is that my training methods are working just fine.

I only posted the thread because i've been bitten by a hostile puppy in the past and once it happens once, i find they tend to try and do it again.

BTW,I understand that as puppies age, they tend to want to see how far they can push their limits. However,i think it's always a good precautionary idea to be cautious of a dog who's parents were bred to be fighting dogs because it is one of the main influencing factors of dog aggression. I'm simply excercising caution.

Please don't jump to conclusions next time and make assumptions that all of my "dog knowledge" is centered around pack theory. I try to read up on every useful resource i can in an effort to have a well rounded knowledge about behavioral problems. Although i may still be a novice in contrast to you, I still feel i am qualified enough to 'formally' train my own dog. However, i am human and i'll be the first to admit that i don't know everything. Thank you for you advice, i appreciate and encourage your POSITIVE feedback, but please don't insult my intelligence by assuming that I'm not qualified enough to 'formally' train my own pup and need professional guidance. Thank you.

Rob

Hi Rob,
Not trying to insult your intellegence at all, sorry if you felt that way. :)
I've just gained an impression from your various postings that you've made through the last week that while you're all stocked up on book knowledge, it's the applications in everyday living that tend to cause you to question yourself. You've also mentioned serious concern about 'aggression problems' in the future with your puppy before. If this impression is wrong, then disregard my opinion :)

As for a "formal"' trainer...well, I was thinking that puppy classes would be great for him to meet others of his own age and learn from those around him in a safely controlled environment....especially with winter coming in.

But it seems as if you have things firmly under control, so I'll withdraw that suggestion, if you wish ;) :) Actually, I'm amazed with all of the 'commands' he's mastered at such a young age. :) A quite remarkable puppy :)
What other breeds have you had experience with, if you don't mind my asking? I'm just being nosy, as usual. :)
regards,
toodles

Rob, none of us are so knowledgable that we can't learn more, be it from a profesional or someone on this board. The art is to accept the advice that suits the problem you have at the moment. Different dog, different problem, different answer. Please try not to be so defensive we realy are all trying, to not only help, but to get along with you too, and that is difficult if we have to check every word to make sure we don't offend your sensibilities. Ja:)kie

OH! I have Elkhounds at the moment and have owned GSD's and Cockers in the past.

Hallo Rob

I agree with Sara, one hundred per cent :p

It is a very common thing, and imho does tend to actually get worse if you then try to pull the dog out as, as Sara has already suggested, there is then a battle of wills where the dog is already in a situation where is it upset and stressed. It is far better to concentrate on the general relationship between you and the dog, believe me :)

And i agree too, don't get pulled in too much by pack theory and then feel that your youngster is trying to do either X, Y, or Z ;) to get one over on you.

I have helped with puppy classes and I have to say, the trainer always let pups come forward out from under chairs, etc of their own accord. They always did, and it was always fine, and the pups always ended up well balanced and happy :)

Another pup class really upset the owner of a Bernese Mountain Dog pup, because it was its first time at class, and hehad hidden under the owner's chair. The trainer pulled it out, scared it,and the pup growled (it had never done this before) and the trainer promptly told the owner the dog was vicious and needed to be pts as soon as possible!!! Needless to say the dog was then taken to another class and was perfectly fine.

Re the aggression thing, be a good leader but dont' come down too hard on him, as he needs to see you as a friend.Dont read every bad thing he does as maybe him trying to "take over". Dogs bred for fighting are usually extrememly good with people as they had to be handled ( and presumably still do :( ) in the ring even when very highly aroused.

Just one other comment, i'm not sure why you are trying to get him out from under the bed...? If he feels safe there, much better to let him chill out and then come to you willingly.

I am going to be honest and say that i hear slight alarm bells ringing re the isolation technique, as you said, he HATES it. It sounds as if you do it lots - but from what you have said, it may not be working/helping as presumably it needs to be repeated a lot. It may be that if he is that upset bu this, (as after all, no dog WANTS to be punished) it would be worth a re-evaluation? Especially if it is the sort of situation where you have to drag him to the "spot" because he hates it so much....

I am sure things will be fine. Maybe try reading John Fisher's "WhyDoes My Dog?" or "Think Dog" .....the first one especially is very helpful in understanding this sort of situation. (should be available from www.crosskeysbooks.com) :)

Lindsay

p.s. Whoops Ive just read your replu to Sara (re assuming too much) and Jackie. Hope i haven't said anything to offend, sometimes it is hard to know who knows what, or how much experience they have, etc :) All advice is well meant :) ;)

To a certain extent we are ALL still learning and modifying our ideas, etc. If we are truly keen on dogs then we will continue to do this til the day we pop our clogs :)

I don't read all his negative behavior as an attempt to escalate his social status in the household.

I don't try to be too strict, but i don't believe in being too lenient either. I praise lavishly with treats and affection when he does good and i rarely use the isolation technique unless he's done something exceptionally bad. Usually, i just tell him quiet time and he goes into his cage without a fight and lays there patiently until i let him out later. I only isolate him when he does something particularly wrong like continuously bite clothes and play tug of war with them after various attempts to correct the behaviour verbally. If verbal corrections don't work i strap on the gentle leader and it usually stops. It's only when he keeps on misbehaving after that that i resort to isolation. I've only done it twice and i find that it works very well at discouraging unwanted behavior.

I have done extensive research as to the history of fighting breeds and i understand the concept of why dogs that fight other dogs tend to be very friendly towards people. However, the bullmastiff that was "guarding" my pup in the frigid garage away from the house seemed very aggressive, even towards humans. He tried to eat me when i walked in so i'm just being as careful as possible.

I appreciate the advice and will try to encourage him out from under the bed from now on instead of forcing him out. Furthermore, i'd like to express my thanks for your concern. Thanks Jackie!

p.s. sorry we got off on the wrong foot, hope we can put it in the past =)

Thanks Rob, perhaps I dare to say this, IMO I think you are trying too hard never to make a mistake with your dogs, and if you get too intense you will forget about enjoying their company. Bet you sometimes make a mistake, don't be too worried if your dogs do. Having a job to keep up with you by the time I post my bit you have moved on and left me behind. Ja:)kie

Hi Lindsay and Jackie, :) :)

Something I've been mulling about for a while.....especially because of dealing with teens in classes :Rolleyes:
Acting in the categories of good/bad is pretty broadbased, general, and judgement calls most of the time.
I get it from the 'kids' (Yeah, right, they're 18 yrs. old :rolleyes: ) "I've been good today"....well, you haven't been evil, either :P

I'm starting to go along the lines of categorizing by "acceptable/unacceptable behavior" instead of "being good/bad".
IMO it tends to be more specific and relates to a certain action, rather than what's inside the individual. I don't have to think morally and worry about it for the future either. :rolleyes:

It also keeps the reputation for the kid or the dog from gaining a notorious reputation to limit future behavior.
"Oh, she's been a bad girl today, she peed on the carpet."
Hmmm, that was 5 minutes out of the day, what about the rest of the time, how was her behavior?

Anyway, do you think this makes any sense?
back to mulling stuff over again :D :D :D

Yes I think along those lines too Sara, but it is to some extent what is acceptable to the owner of the dog rather than the trainer. No one should accept aggresive behaviour but I for one would just mop up an in house pee and think no more about it, but expect if I say enough that what ever is going on stops and stops then. At the end of the day I think it depends on how often the interaction between me and my dogs has been possitive or negative that gives me the feeling of if the day and the dog has been good or not.

Yep... imo, it basically comes down to is the cup half full or half empty :)
It usually balances out in the end for the positive side...either that, or my memory blurs over the bad spots. :P
Trust me, the experience of cleaning up my backyard this morning after weeks of torrential rains was not one of the pluses of dog ownership ;) :rolleyes: :P
But waking up with a warm snuggy body resting in the right spot against the soreness in my back is worth quite a bit of poop patrol :D Samma's a wonderful portable heating pad who will never start an electrical fire :D :D

I try only to clear the yard when it has been frosty and you can play golf with it, if it's wet I send my husband out whilst I do something VERY important in the kitchen. Ja:)kie

Same here Jackie ;)

We ain't daft are we?

:D

Melody

I've been waiting on Jack Frost and he showed up these past two mornings...finally :) Clouds have moved over though, so it's warming up, probably to rain again :(
As wonderful as my hubby is, he's worthless in the puppy patrol department :rolleyes: He has blind spots and misses a lot... the good intention is there, but I end up doing it anyway (sigh). He's pretty good in other departments, especially feats requireing brute strength, so I'll keep him around at least another 10 years ;) :) :) :) :D

Misses some does he. Emmmmm, think thats what I would do if I didn't want to do it. My husband is not very good a the vacing but I work on the premiss that practise makes perfect, so I keep asking for him to try again. ja:)kie

I also took pity on him when I saw him go into dry heaves and couldn't stop for 5 minutes :( :( :( So I just went ahead and surrendered to doing it years ago. He at least carries the bag to the bin..which is through the house and in the front yard.
I really don't mind doing puppy patrol that much---remember, small dogs ;) Still, he does deal with the cooking, which I loathe :) :rolleyes: :O

Your very refined we don't call it Puppy patrol, we say either poo pick or s*** shoveling. It's so nice to know NICE people. Ja:)kie

Moi "Refined"
ROFLMAOWTSMF!!!!!!!!
Thanks, Jackie...urp, I think ;) :D
Actually, I never know how far 'sensibilities' on here can be pushed. So I try to err on the polite side :) Some are more sensitive than others + words convey different images. An example? The second Austin Powers movie!!!!!!!! Didn't mean anything to US, but from what I understand, the UK had difficulities in its advertising :)

You mean The Spy Who Sha***d Me ? ;)

Which must have been difficult to get past the censors here ...but they managed it :D

Excellent Film

Melody

Yep, exactly :) We just think of long 70s type carpeting :D :Rolleyes:
Actually, hubby had to give the long stare when I first heard the name. Drew a complete blank for a moment, then it dawned..... Oh :O :O ;)

We just think of long 70s type carpeting

ROTFL ....that never occured to me before :D Shag pile carpeting ...I remember it well

Melody

LOL, see what I mean now about word impressions? :D :D
I originally had this image of someone rolling another person up in the carpet to suffocate them or something. That's why I drew a blank when I heard about the title. :O
Of course, with my Grandmother's very long orange shag carpet, I still have nightmares of it coming alive and devouring me whole :D :D

Ive just caught up with this thread,I am amazed that so much training has been done with such a young puppy but then I dont have a breed or experience of a breed like this so wouldnt comment about wether I thought it right or not but With the breeds I have I say a little training at time is good so as not to regiment the puppy too soon.
Can I ask please Rob whats station him means?

Mattie,I think it means put him in the corner, bit like the naughty child !
(but I may be wrong ...usually am ! )
Liz

HI Sara

I agree with with you have said about acceptable and unacceptable behaviour, and in fact i too have been thinking this way for quite a while :)

I don't feel a dog is ever actually "bad" - not in the sense we would normally use the word. I don't believe they do anything out of spite, or malice; there is always a reason for what they are doing, and why, and it is up to us, as the hopefully more intelligent species, to discover the reasons and to help bridge the communication gap between the species :) Thats how i see it :)

Even with the more difficult problems such as aggression, I feel we have to understand the "why" before we can truly show the dog what is acceptable and what is not, particularly as there can be so many reasons behind just the one aspect of behaviour :)

Also as you have pointed out, dogs give us so much, most of the time they are so brilliant and I bet most of us find it hard to put in to words just how much our dogs mean to us ;)

Lindsay

I tend to agree with you guys that dogs don't do "bad" things out of spite because dogs lack our high level of reasoning. It's usually bad training on the owner's part that causes dogs to act up.

However, I also believe that as a dog ages and progresses through it's adolescent stages they like to see how far they can push their limits and get away with it. Children do this too, it's all apart of growing up and maturing. It's not that they are being bad, they are simply curious as to how far they can push their limits. It's our job as their human companions to help establish rules for what's acceptable behavior and what's not. Without structure, it's hard for dogs to learn on their own.

I wasn't totally sure about why he was growling and barking at me under the bed. But sara cleared that up for me and now i understand WHY he does it. Now i just sit there and let him bark and growl all he wants. After ignoring him for a few seconds he usually stops. Treats help encourage him to come out too, but i don't want him to think that he is being rewarded for the unacceptable behavior. Calling him out tends to aggrevate the situation and make him bark more. I guess i'll just have to keep ignoring him. Oh well, can't control everything. Thanks again for the advice everyone! =)

HI there,

Sounds as if he is improving a bit, you must feel a bit relieved :)

Have you tried waiting him out, then, when he comes out, of his own accord, rewarding him with either treats, praise or a game ? It' s just that, that way, he cannot see he is beign rewarded for the unacceptable ( the hiding/growling etc) as he is being rewarded for making the right choice ;)

Sounds as if this is almost what you are doing anyway, but one of the best things i have learnt in the past few years is to wait for the dog to make the good choice :)

I agree some young dogs to tend to push limits, mind you, lots depends on the dog, I've had some who never have. My current girl is very exciting, and will push, but responds well when i insist "Er, excuse me..." sort of thing...:)

It's all good fun :D ;)

LIndsay