Hi, Something happened on Tuesday which i've only just calmed down enough to speak about! After coming home from work i received a call from one of my puppy buyers who i've befriended and trusted 100%(dog is now 3yrs old, as is her other dog). Anyway, she called me in tears to say that she'd rehomed both dogs last year (despite the contract she'd signed saying the dog would come back to me if she couldn't keep him for any reason, and me telling her umpteen times that if she had any problems she could call me!) but she had since had several calls from the new owners' concerned friend saying the dogs were being neglected, left alone for days on end, starved etc. The owner also had a very violent partner who was in and out of prison, social services had taken her kids into care, she's an IV drug user...could she BE any worse?? As you can imagine, i was horrified(not to mention FURIOUS!) and agreed to drive over 100miles each way to get the dogs back immediately.

We were met by 7 obviously drunk/drugged and hostile people at her squalid property. When the dogs were brought out, i couldn't believe my eyes! They'd obviously been fighting, were covered in cuts/bites and you could see every rib clearly (turns out one had lost over 8kgs in weight). I almost cried, but anger took over when they insisted that the dogs were absolutely fine, loved and cared for and they were determined to keep them. Over my dead body!!

I called the Police when things got heated and managed to get both dogs into my car before they arrived - luckily, the men were too scared of going back to prison to get physical as they were the sort of people you don't mess with - Police called for two more cars and a van when they realised who they were, and gave us an escort out of town!

The dogs have been checked over by a vet and their condition documented in case there are repercussions, and they're getting plenty of TLC at their first owners home. I'm puppy sitting at the moment but they'll be coming to me once he goes home so i can get some weight on them and get them right again mentally - i dread to think what they've been through, poor babies, they're SOOO sweet and are now terrified of men and small children :(  I'm sure i can turn them around, but it'll take a long time, and could have so easily been avoided if they'd just called me first! Grrrrrrr!

Oh how awful, your post brought tears to my eyes. I'm so glad you managed to get the dogs. Sounds like you have a lot of work ahead of you but it also sounds like you're not one to give up easily and will get them through this!

I am so relieved that the dogs are back with you, what a horrific experience for you and the dogs.  Sending healing thoughts xx

That's terrible . But well done to you for getting them back. To face people like that is so brave. Though I know my self how far I would go for my dogs.  I am shore they will recover in time. Thank god they had you as there guardian Angel

Thanks for all your kind thoughts. I wasn't scared at the time but i guess that's the adrenaline working! If i'd HAD to fight, i wouldn't have hesitated, NO-ONE is going to hurt my dogs while there's still breath in my body! With hindsight, it probably wasn't the smartest thing i've ever done but even so, i'd do the same again (though i'm praying i never have to)

how could someone do that!?!?

well done you for fighting for them. i hope they recover from their ordeal.

I cant believe ive just read this ! How terrible for you but thank goodness you have them back with you.

Good luck in getting them back to happy dogs..they probally know already they are safe and loved with you.

Annee

What a hero you are! Truly!

My goodness you are so brave, well done you!! I live in an area that has quite a few of the above mentioned type groups of people and they always have dogs. And they are never in a good condition as they are there for one reason and one reason only and that is to make their owners appear more untouchable... well until you arrived anyway!!! We need more people like you to stand up for themselves and their dogs!

goodness me! im amazed you were allowed to stroll in (a total stranger) and take someone elses property! (the dogs) im glad you did, but dont the dogs belong to those they were given to, however low those people were? im surprised the police allowed it to happen. do you know something i dont? i didnt think even the rspca could take a dog without a court order or was it because they were too drunk to care?

Legally, you have actually stolen the dogs!!! Luckily the new owners were more afraid of the police than their rights.

Morally, your my hero, and I think you are absolutely wonderful RESPECT your brilliant, massive ((((((((hug))))) so pleased that you have your dogs away from them and can now start to work on them again.

Your my kind of breeder. :-) :-)

Poor dogs, bet they faught over scraps of food. Why on earth did the first owners sell them to druggies?!?!?!? Hope they are not too traumatised, and you can get them back to normal asap. Bet you were a raging bull , i know i would have been.

Louise

As the first owner signed a form to say they would return them to breeder if they could no longer care for them, then this makes me think the dogs  belong to the breeder as the owner had no right to sell them on. Or at least I think that's right ?

>this makes me think the dogs  belong to the breeder as the owner had no right to sell them on. Or at least I think that's right ?

No. Once a puppy has been sold the breeder has no further claim on it, whatever any signed contract says.

If these people chose to reclaim their dogs you'll have a hard time proving in court that they belong to you and not them, regardless of the contract that was signed by the original owner.  The chances are they won't do anything but I'd get some quick legal advice to double check how you can establish these dogs as yours.

Taking them to the vets was a great idea - if nothing else, you'll have proof if you get reported to the RSPCA that you got these dogs like this rather than caused their condition.  If they've not been fed properly for a while then small regular meals are the way to go rather than normal sized meals.

Poor boys :(

I'd get some quick legal advice to double check how you can establish these dogs as yours.
 
Unfortuantely, it would be a complete waste of money the dogs belong to the home that they were taken from, once the pup was sold even with a contract of return if no longer wanted it is not actually legally binding, only morally binding, breeders can fight for the right to have their pups back if a contract is signed but often the puppy owner will just give in and return it, if it went to court it can not be enforced at all. Once you sell something it is no longer yours no way around it.

If these owners should decide to try to get their dogs back, the breeder here has no rights and in fact could well be prosecuted for theft, the RSPCA could take them from the owners re: their poor condition but not the breeder.  The RSPCA can then return to breeder, if playing ball.

I'm just hoping here that these owners will do nothing, I hope that will be the case, looks as though it is :-) our OP has been really lucky, luck is on her side, a brave move got a good result. Thank goodness.

The law is not always on the side of the dog and often the law literally stinks, but it is what it is.

much as i don;t want to encourage illegal activity (oh, hells, yeah i do if its morally right!) i wonder if the police or the people took the op's address? if not they can hardly pursue it if they don't know who she is

> The law is not always on the side of the dog and often the law literally stinks, but it is what it is.

Yes, that's the truth - but it's worth bluffing it out!

3 years ago I agreed to deliver a puppy to a disabled person down in Poole Harbour area.  He was so well spoken, sounded such an ideal owner.  Yes, before you all start telling me how unintelligent I must have been,, I didn't say I was that bright!!     I have never, before, or since, offered to deliver a pup!

During the time I was there, I cannot tell you how many things put me off this guy as an owner, and I don't want to make this a saga. 
I picked my puppy up and walked out.  The guy told me that he would see a solicitor, as I had accepted a deposit, so we had made a contract.  Yes, I know he was right.  I told him that he could see a solicitor - I had left his deposit on the kitchen table, and he wasn't having a puppy from me. 

He asked me what he was supposed to do about all the puppy food I had left in the kitchen.  I just wanted to make my escape with the pup, so told him he could eat it himself.  I was shaking until I got out of the county!!!!  I waited for a solicitors letter that never came.  The OP may find, like me, she never hears another word.  I have my fingers crossed for her anyway.

In reply to Tina S, Carrington, Bettyonthebus and a few others that commented, i appreciate your concerns but i'm not too worried for the following reasons:

1)These lowlifes don't have my full name or my address, and can't remember the address they collected the dogs from(!)
2)No money changed hands, so they have no proof of ownership.
3)The dog which i bred is still registered in my name, as is his microchip. I have all the relevant paperwork, and the Police were satisfied that everything was in order.
4)These people kept changing their story - first they said they paid £500 for the dogs, then it was £1000, and at one point 3 different people were claiming ownership! One man even said that he'd collected the dogs, when it was actually a woman - the Police aren't fools, they know when they're being lied to.
5)I spoke at length to the Police(at least an hour) and they said that although it's a very grey area in law, due to the condition of the dogs, the new 'owners' lifestyle(one of them is homeless, the others all share a squalid, filthy house and are either drug addicts and/or alcoholics), and given the fact that they can't/won't provide a healthy environment for the dogs they would be VERY unlikely to get the dogs if it went to Court.

I don't think they WILL pursue it as i've told them what the Vet has said, and that he's prepared to give a statement to the Court, including photographs. Either way, my conscience is clear. I did what's best for the dogs and i'd do it again without hesitation.

Thank you everyone for your support.

> I did what's best for the dogs and i'd do it again without hesitation.
>
>

Can I buy you a drink?  :-)

I am so pleased.  Well done.

Lets make it 2 drinks Jean.  Well done, what made the original owner ring you at last.
Thank goodness she did

I did what's best for the dogs and i'd do it again without hesitation.

And well done to you, a responsible breeder and all round good person.

Well done Have a drink on me,Your a very brave lady.

Well done for doing what you did, that muct have taken a lot of courage.. I applaud you...  One thing though... did you say you have given the dogs temporarily back to their original owner?  I am a bit stuck to understand this as you, quite rightly, were absolutely fuming with this person as they had broken your trust etc..?

I have to say, I did wonder about this action also??

Where did she say that?

First posting. End of last paragraph!

Yes, she DOES have them at the moment, but only because i'd already agreed to puppysit this week and i was worried that the rescued 2 might attack him as they've become aggressive around certain dogs - didn't want to risk any harm to someone elses pet!

They've settled down well and i'm visiting everyday to check on them (off work this week anyway to look after puppy).

Original owner has said she wants to keep them now, but that's just guilt i'm sure. In a few months, she'll change her mind and they'll be given away like a second hand TV! While i can't do anything about the other dog, i've told her the one that i bred IS coming back to me. I have his KC reg., and even if i didn't, she broke her contract with me when she gave him away. I realise that it's not legally enforcable, but she doesn't know that and i won't tell her!

I live quite near to her and i'm happy for her to see him and spend time with him, she's a really nice person and feels terrible about what's happened, but he'll be living with my pack under my roof. I know it sounds harsh, but his welfare's my main concern, if she's upset by it that's just tough.

Nice to see the story had a happy ending. In some ways it appears that the dodgy past of these sick individuals actually helped you really as they didnt want to go back to prison. good luck to you in the future with your poor pups.x

> once the pup was sold even with a contract of return if no longer wanted it is not actually legally binding, only morally binding, breeders can fight for the right to have their pups back if a contract is signed

Firstly well done to you for your brave efforts in the dogs back.

What I'd like to know from all of you good breeders out there is this.

If for whatever reason you find yourselves in the position that one of the new owners of your pups finds that they can no longer care for your pup and wants to return it do you refund the purchase price? Is that a normal practice or does it depend on the circumstances?

Also if the contract that people sign to say they will return pup if they can no longer care for it is not leagally binding then what is the point of it?

> Also if the contract that people sign to say they will return pup if they can no longer care for it is not leagally binding then what is the point of it?

Dealing with that point first I would say it is there to remind and encourage purchasers that you are their first and most reliable port of call in difficulties.
Personally, my contract promises that they will receive the balance of any money taken, if and when, a dog is placed again, less any out of pocket expences incured by me.

> to remind and encourage purchasers that you are their first and most reliable port of call in difficulties.

Although it is probably the best good breeders can do I think it is a shame that it is not legally binding.

>

I have to say that when I bought my last 3 dogs, 1 from one breeder and 2 from another only the breeder of the single dog asked me to sign a contract and I found it reassuring. If I had not been able to care for the dog I would have gone back to her but not expecting a refund and only because I knew she would find another good home.

I think the way you manage the situation sounds ideal for both you, ex-owner and dog.

What about breeders that do not do as you do, if they ask people to sign a contract but do not offer recompence these people are not likely to return the dog if there's a chance they could sell it to someone else and make a few quid.

> What about breeders that do not do as you do, if they ask people to sign a contract but do not offer recompence these people are not likely to return the dog if there's a chance they could sell it to someone else and make a few quid.

There is that danger I suppose but I would hope my vetting is good enough to ensure I sell to intelligent, caring people who will see the clause of returning to me to sort out a good new home as a bonus to them rather than a restriction. 
The reason I give them money back is not so much an incentive, although no harm done if it is :-), but because I do not wish to make any money on such unfortunate circumstances.  I think it would be wrong of me to do so but I would not like to give the dog to another home for free either.

Would it be possible for breeders to have a contract similar to that of rescue societies ie the dogs are not wholly owned by the 'purchasers' they are adopted and the breeder could then have the legal right to remove the dog from unsuitable homes - with suitable proof of course?

Fantastic rescue of your dogs by the way - you should be very proud of yourself! 

I'm not sure that these rescue "contracts" would hold water legally either.