It's not been 2 weeks since I posted that Meg had been attacked by another dog and it has happened again.  This time the circumstances were very different but she will growl at other dogs when she is nervous.  Last time both dogs were off  the lead and I accept she needed putting in her place.  This time I met a guy who is always on the defensive having a collie that has dog to dog aggression.  When we pass on lead both dogs will lunge towards each other although off lead they are OK.  This time we had just come off the road into the field and my dog was on the lead - his was off.  He called me on saying his dog was OK because he had his ball in his mouth. I have to add here that he is always saying that other people accuse him of having an aggressive dog and that is why he is always on the defensive.  Other people shout at him - other people's dogs attack his.     Well I was nervous and I couldn't let Meg off because we were too near the road.  So I tried to pass and Meg growled.  His dog went in for the attack and left Meg sitting crying.  But this wasn't the end - if it was I could put it behind me - this guy said that it was my dog's fault she was aggressive - his dog 'used' to be aggressive!   I said that my dog was on the lead his wasn't.  He swore and swore and told me that he would kill my dog.  To top it all another guy who always looks nervous of my dog and walks his dog on the lead all the time, came up behind and started fing and blinding at me too!  He said my dog was aggressive towards his and he would kill her too.  By now I was so upset and tried to say that I always did him the courtesy of putting my dog on the lead to pass him because his was on the lead but he still insisted that my dog had attacked his which is not true.  I had both of these guys shouting and swearing and threatening me.  Unfortunately and unusually there was no-one else around.

I met some of the other regular dog walkers later and was so upset I had to tell them.  They don't think my dog is aggressive - she doesn't attack their dogs.  She was very quiet after the attack and has come in the house unusually quiet but then I am very upset.  She did seem hurt although her skin doesn't seem broken anywhere.  I think she is just bruised.

How can I stop her growling at other dogs that she is nervous of!   What can I do?   All this sort of thing just lets her know that she is right to be nervous of other dogs and to keep on getting in there first to warn them off. 

Hi,

Your experience sounds awful, i hope your dog is ok.
As far as i can see you were not in the wrong at all and the men were well out of order. if it were me i would of told them if they threaten me again then i'd go to the police but when your in a situation like this it's it's hard to think straight and can be very frightening with no one else around.
I have three dogs, two are great with other dogs and one gets very nervous but will not attack another dog unless they corner her. Luckily this hasn't happened yet as there's always plenty of space in a field for her to run off and avoid them.
the only way to get past this nervousness is by alot of socialisation with other dogs,have you got alot of people you could get to walk with you so your dog can experience friendly dogs around her also how about going to some training classes for older dogs that deal with dogs being nervous or aggressive. A trainer maybe able to give you some better advice.
All i can say for now is if you can walk somewhere else to avoid this man and dog, else your dog is never going to stop being nervous with people like that about.      
It would be worth asking someone if they could walk with you then least if you see this man again and he's rude you have a witness but more than likely he want say anything in front of anyone else.
Hope someone else can give you better advice.
   

Ceejay,

Well, at least you know why the other guy's dog is aggressive. The chap sounds off his trolley and, of course, dogs pick up on all that unresolved aggression/instability in their owners and it makes them more unstable than they already might be!! In fairness I do think that the pressure of living with an unreliable and aggressive dog can put a tremendous strain on any of us and perhaps that is why he flipped out in such an irrational way. It's a side of dog ownership is overlooked.

Poor you and your poor dog. I agree with the last poster and, as I'm sure you already know, unfortunately there are no short cuts and this last experience won't have helped.

If you can I'd steer clear of the area where the incident happened and, obviously these guys, if possible. I'd also avoid offlead situations with other dogs (both yours and other people's). You need to rebuild her confidence around other dogs by only working with ones you know to be reliable. You'll need to rebuild her critical distance by, for example, walking towards a dog on lead and then turning away again the moment you see any slight tensing or response on her part. Use all your training aides like distraction and so on to help you. As ever, you'd be better doing this with help from an expert initially. It will need a proper, carefully considered, conditioning regime.

I'd also add that, as I think I said before, with all this tension and nervousness around, both you and your dog need to build your confidence together, so that you don't wind each other up. You already correctly observed that other people shout at this guy and then their dogs attack his- no coincidence there, the shouting owners and dogs, are from dogs perspective, acting as a unit. BTW I'm not judging you. None of us can be expected to control our reflexive, bodily response to fear. We just have to do things over in such a way that the fear reactions never begin to build. Hope this monologue makes sense LOL.

Sorry if I'm teaching granny to suck eggs and so on, I just think that you'd be best to bite the bullet and go right back to square one in training terms and rebuild her attitude to other dogs, especially on lead. I think if you don't she may not have a fair chance of cracking it. But others here may well disagree.

Again, best of luck.

It was the second man coming up that was completely unjustified.  He was rude bullying and aggressive.  They both made threats towards my dog.  I can't bring myself to go out for a walk again today.  They both live on this estate and I am just terrified that I will bump into them again.   Most dog owners I meet take it as normal that sometimes dogs don't always hit it off.  We get the occasional dog that will take a dislike to Meg or she to them and they will both have a grumble, show of teeth and move on - that is it - that is normal behaviour.  It is just so unlucky that in a matter of a couple of weeks she meets two dogs that feel that a grumble isn't enough and go in to teach her a lesson. The first man two weeks ago was as shocked as myself I think but this was uncalled for, rude, bullying and threatening. 

  This first man with the collie who attacked mine seems to forget that we have talked in a friendly fashion at other times - each time he tells me that there is another dog like mine which has attacked his but mine is alright. He says it everytime as if he has forgotten that he has met me before.   He has already told me that there is another dog owner who has advised him to get a muzzle for his dog.  Now here he is with his dog off lead and telling me that mine is the aggressive one.  When I normally pass him on the pavement he makes me walk nearest the traffic in case his dog (as he growls at mine) drops his ball and steps out into the road.  I oblige him and have been polite to him, listened to him grumbling about other dogs and then he attacks me verbally like this and his buddy joins in.  They walked off together although they both usually walk on their own.

That sounds good freelancer - that is something positive.  As long as she goes on reacting towards dogs that are inclined to be like this she is always going to get into trouble.  Each experience only teaches her that she is right in trying to warn them off and that I can't protect her.   She is more likely to do it when she is on the lead and there was very little I could do except walk away from him which my instinct told me to do - he called me on.  Why did I listen to him. 

Ceejay, the amount of times I've cursed myself for not going with my gut reaction. Listen to and follow your own instincts in future.

You are right about what experience teaches our dogs. Depending on the dog, even one attack when on lead can teach our dog that all other dogs are a danger to them when they are leashed. Because you can't reason with your dog you can't explain to her what is going on. She's going to have to re-learn it all and rebuild her experience and associations with what other dogs represent when she is on the lead. Start with small steps and build up. It can be done, really it can, but requires hard work and patience on your part and a good trainer/expert.

In the meantime, build your own confidence by remembering that you can easily avoid any situation you can't control. If you are out walking in the street and see another dog, turn around, walk away, then cross over. Just don't allow either your self or your dog to get to the point of feeling the tiniest bit of apprehension.

Thanks - I have been meaning to get a trainer in for absolutely ages - There is always something to make me leave it until tomorrow.  The weeks just tick by and I have always got an excuse for why I haven't done it.  Some of the reasons for getting her in have resolved themselves so the need hasn't been so pressing.   This though is something else.  I have to protect my dog.  Now - to take her out.  I have feared this all day.  Won't go the same way and I am fairly sure these two guys take the same route everyday.  Deep breathe and away. 

Hi Ceejay, I'm sorry you've been having a horrible time with these men who were so bad tempered. I think I'd suggest trying very hard to not put Meg into the situation where she feels the need to growl if at all possible (often easier said than done, I know!). So for instance if you see any dog walking towards you, either cross over or if there is no other option turn around and go back. Do this with a jolly attitude if you can ;) as you don't want Meg to pick up on your feeling concerned. Try singing something to yourself, such as "happy birthday to me" or similar, to help yourself feel more relaxed; I've heard this can work very well!

Also check you aren't tightening the lead or sending fear down the lead ... as they say in horse terms! You may need to have the lead short but don't kind of restrict her movements except enough to get her to come along with you. You can also teach her the "hide" which is to give her a command to go behind you where she may feel safer when passing other dogs (although generally I'd say avoid such situations).

A trainer will be helpful I'm sure but do be careful they aren't of the rattle bottle brigade and that they preferably have behavioural interest or experience - try www.apdt.co.uk :)

Ceejay (((hug))) :-(

This just wasn't an everyday dog on dog meeting was it hun, two grown men threatening you and both saying they want to kill your dog! Sorry, but that just isn't a normal reaction is it? More of two bullies picking on a lone girl/woman totally out of order and uncalled for. Never mind the dog, but both men need reporting to the police for threatening such a thing. (It may even be worth contemplating if you seriously feel for yours or your dogs safety.)

The other man knowing the history of his own dog and even telling you "It's ok, he has a ball in his mouth" just goes to show how foolish and unknowledgeable he is of even his own dog, a ball in the mouth will certainly distract his own dog from growling, but in no way will stop it from reacting to a growl from yours, if a Collie is that way inclined, it will react no doubt about it, he is blaming you for his dog becoming aggressive and to be honest his dog may well be great with other dogs who show no 'challenge' but knowing yours growls he should have popped his on lead, I expect his aggression towards you was down to his own misjudgement of his dog. (Foolish pride) The point is his dog was off lead yours was on and his attacked, so the blame this time was purely at his door.

From what you have always said she growls and chases but has never actually attacked or bitten another dog, but as I've said previously BC's often communicate in this way, if I met your girl every day, I'd probably just walk past and say "Shut up Meg!" which seemed to work with other Collies I got to know. :-D But then it got them used to looking at me for a pat instead of the dogs, I know you can't do that with strangers but that is how quickly regular walkers can stop her behaviour.

If I didn't know Collies I may well perceive your dog to be looking for a fight or class it as unfriendly if she growled everytime I passed her, there is nothing we can do about that, other people and other dogs will see her that way ceejay. As the man you met has done, pop a ball in her mouth to stop the growling, continue with your everyday training and continue to lead her when passing dogs you don't know or who are likely to go for her.

You were not in the wrong at all this time ceejay, hold your head up, remember if worried contact the police, these men were being nothing more than bullies, that dog should have been on a lead whilst passing yours, keep working with Meg, hopefully and eventually through training you will be able to stop her growling to a command of Stop, Shush etc, but a ball certainly will be a great deterant for now.

Thanks Lindsay - I do have someone in mind - recommended by several people online here and from my agility class.  I spoke to her before Christmas and I was to see her after Meg got rid of her cough.  However that took weeks to get rid of and then it was Christmas and then my new grandchild was due etc etc.  I have put it off long enough - Meg is settled here now and we have a good relationship in the house - but she is easily wound up and looses her focus on me outside.  When she sees a dog she doesn't like she will growl and lunge across from the other side of the road.  I never know which dogs she will do it to - but this collie is one she will do it to and he does it back to her.  I walked away from him the other day and had her sitting focussing on me which worked perfectly - he meanwhile turns off the path to go his direction.  However they can't pass each other without this behaviour.  He makes me walk the side of the heavy traffic which doesn't help the situation at all.  I do have to put her on a short lead just incase she steps off.  Difficult not to be nervous - nasty dog one side and heavy traffic the other.  I never saw ahead that this situation might have happened - one on the lead and one off.  They have met off lead without problems in the past.  I will not be passing him on or off the lead from now on - nor will I let him dictate to me what to do.  

Thanks Carrington - I didn't sleep much last night worrying about whether this is all my fault and whether Meg is really aggressive and I just can't see it.  I woke up to find my husband had gone out with her - no doubt to give these guys a piece of his mind!!  That will really make this better I don't think!  However Meg was as good as gold, met plenty of dogs and played with some and ignored others.  A normal walk then.  But she is a collie - she can be pushy and she can be mouthy (noisy I mean) - if she goes towards dogs in this manner I call her off - throw the ball, walk on and distract her - it is not a problem - until meeting these one or two very reactive dogs.  This has been the third time now in her nearly 4 years that it has happened and it has got to be the last.  I am going to write out a statement to the police because I am not comfortable with these two guys - they were both - the second one especially out of order - the first one had the excuse of hurt pride as you say - the other one was just a bully who saw a bit of trouble and wanted to get stuck in too. 

Update - walked the playing fields for the first time with my heart in my mouth.  Took a roundabout route to miss collie owner - saw him in the distance so knew he was out of the way.  Bumped into quite a few other dog walkers - who were about that day and have had so much comfort and support from them.  The one lady said she was going to give these guys a piece of her mind!  She hadn't seen the collie owner but the terrier owner she knew by name.  Would you believe it - he told them he was calling the guy off me!  Well they say bullies are cowards don't they.  This fits well with the fact that he came up and joined in  when he saw the first guy having a go.  As I have rightly thought he has a dog that has got aggressive occasionally and although it has run with the other dogs before now he is nervous and hikes it up on a short lead - making the situation worse.   Anyway people's perceptions have changed now he has been proved to be aggressive, bullying and a liar. 
Oh and the black lab who pinned down Meg several weeks ago - is known to guard it's ball and has done that to other dogs so freelancer and Lurchergirl were correct.

Hi Ceejay

Sorry to hear you have had such a rough time.  Unfortunately with dogs and dog owners like that, you can only do so much with your own dog :-(  Nobody has a right to make you feel threatened, whether it is threatening your dog or your person.  These guys can be reported to the Police for such threatening and aggressive behaviour!  Hopefully the other dog walkers will let them know this.

> Bumped into quite a few other dog walkers - who were about that day and have had so much comfort and support from them.
>Anyway people's perceptions have changed now he has been proved to be aggressive, bullying and a liar.

It's great that you've got support from other dog walkers, I bet it makes you feel much better knwoing that there are people who know the truth and that you're not the 'bad guy' :)

>the black lab who pinned down Meg several weeks ago - is known to guard it's ball

The owner of the lab must have known what will happen to any dog that gets close to it's ball, so there was no need for that dog to be put in the position (by it's owner) to tell Meg off :(

I would make sure you have your mobile phone on you should anything like this happens again (I most certainly hope it doesn't). Should either of these bullies speak to you again tell them that you intend to call the police as you feel threatened by their behaviour.

I know I am very lucky with my three (4!) and they are very easygoing with all other dogs. I think if really pushed Merlot would retaliate but never would she start any agression. However my friends little JRT had walked for a couple of years with another local lady and her menagery (5/6 small dogs) and they are dog on dog agressive, Floydie had begun to get snappy with other dogs herself but  since we started walking together (my friend and I)she has got better and better in company, very occasionally she will snap at the odd overly bouncy playfull dog but her behaviour has improved in company with mine. I should rent them out as they seem to have exceptional dog on dog life skills and they take everything in thier stride. Is it possible for you to find someone with a dog or dogs who have good life skills and walk with them for a while? it has made no end of difference to Floydie.
Aileen

That is a great idea. My old girl (who I have just lost) had the most amazing skills. She seemed to be able to put nervy dogs at their ease and never reacted to aggressive dogs so they would always calm down in her company. If you can find a local dog that she feels comfortable with then she can learn to play with them and hopefully not react to other dogs.

Sorry to muddle you Mastifflover - the lab with the ball happened earlier this month - that guy just walked away without saying anything to me.  What with the new incident it was making me doubt my own judgement.  It is indeed good that I have plenty of positive things said about Meg and that other people are so familiar with the other dogs and people that use this walk.  Actually there must be a huge number - there are normally 5 or 6 dogs in the fields every time I go down there.  There is always a new dog to meet too.  

That would be great but I don't know anyone well enough to walk with them every day.  Especially someone with the right sort of dog. 

What a shame.

Oh bullies the pair of them, if you have a dog on a lead and its attacked it isnt the one on the lead that is to blame at all its the one thats off lead. The man was not keeping his dog under control Christine you were.

On a lead the dogs feel I need protecting and they will react if I feel threatened, or weary.

Any man that verbally lays into a women alone and threatens to "kill her dog" needs castrating. What a wicked thing to say.

What can you do, I would think these two "gentlemen" have ensured Meg will remain nervous around their dogs. Take her off to another walking area until she settles down again or walk with friends? Wish I was up there I'd join you. I still cannot comprehend how Meg on a lead, captive, is a threat to their dogs off lead they should have more sense.

hi, i really do sympathise with your horrible experience with these 2 nasty men! - i have a young terrier who is fear agressive (1 year old but getting better) and i really do understand the challenges brought about by another dog showing aggression and their idiot owners when out walking. Being relaxed on your walks (loose lead and all that) and having a positive attitude/ with positive training techniques tells me that your dog couldn't ask for a better owner. I guess its a bit like the driving analogy, sometimes you can do everything right - but its the other idiots on the road that ruin it for everyone!
I agree, if you can, avoid these guys like the plague (sounds like they have a bad reputation any way). I know that this will not be always easy but basically walk the other way if you see them approaching. It is a good idea with a fear aggressive dog to take take them to different places anyway, to desensitise them. I go to quite a few different locations with my 2 dogs and it certainly seems to be building their confidence much quicker over the last few months, then taking them to the same place everytime. Also I do know what time the 'nasty dog and owner ' go out for their walks and try to avoid those times. I do this with a dog on our estate who attacked my other older dog about 1 year ago, my dog was on the lead and this dog ran over and jumped on him (he was a jibbering wreck for 6 months). now - soon as i see them coming i'm off!! my dog starts growling and getting upset if he sees them and he is the gentlest dog you will ever find - Don't let these idiots spoil your walks with your dog.

Thanks Viv -bit of a long way to come to join me for a walk - meet you half way LOL! 

Yep I know what time collie owner goes out and his routine.  It's the Mr Cowardy Custard that I am not sure of.  I really don't want to meet him with my dog off the lead unexpectedly.  She has walked past his dog quietly in the past but I am not going to let him say - there you are you're dog is aggressive if she reacts to his dog showing attitude possibly - not seen any evidence of that as it happens.   Anyway I like to think I am responsible and put Meg on the lead when I see another dog on the lead coming towards me.  However there are a few places where we can be taken by surprise so now I have to prepare by putting her on the lead when I can't see ahead.  Met a lady with 3 boxers and a small child this morning.  All off lead.  I explained what I was doing and let Meg off again.  She sounded anxious because her dogs were a bit in Meg's face - not helped by one that insisted on chasing our ball too.  Well Meg dealt with them in her usual way - grumble, 'leave me alone' and forgot about them.  See - if dog's communicate properly then there is no problem.

> That would be great but I don't know anyone well enough to walk with them every day.  Especially someone with the right sort of dog. 

if you feel comfortable you could say where abouts you are and maybe get a couple of offers that way? maybe not for all the time but sometimes might really help