I have had starsks for 7 months. He did on 2 occasions snap at my son as he was rather over bearing full on hugging & snogging. The last 2 months since my son who's 15 has realise his mistake, I told him that it must of freaked him out and so has  been gentler with the dog and there relationship has gone from strength to strength or so I thought.

My son told me this morning that starsks who he allowed onto his bed last night came up to his face and licked him and then my son kissed his cheek back Starsks looked at him growled at him and then licked him back my son did not give him a kiss back- then Starsks snuggled into him ? Whats all that about? Should I be worried about this odd behaviour? 

> My son told me this morning that starsks who he allowed onto his bed last night came up to his face and licked him and then my son kissed his cheek back Starsks looked at him growled at him and then licked him back my son did not give him a kiss back- then Starsks snuggled into him ? Whats all that about? Should I be worried about this odd behaviour? 

was it a tooth baring growl or just a noise? my lot make a noise somewhere between a growl and a whine when they are happy- perhaps your son just misunderstood?

If he has this odd behaviour I def would not be allowing the dog in the room with your son or leave them unattended at all...

Maybe put them through dog training and have your son be the handler and also be the one to feed and do the care of the dog so the dog learns to listen to him- sounds like he needs to realize that ur son is top dog...

Also could there be anything wrong with the dogs face, muzzle, teeth? The dog could be in some pain and when this part of his face is touched may hurt- something to check into just to rule out any health problems so to speak.

No teeth were raised. Maybe it was misunderstood.

Talking to my son more about it, I'm thinking that maybe my son has hurt him by being heavy handed when kissing the dog on the face so even though Starsks loves him and wants his attention he is trying to tell him that he does not like the way he is with his rough kisses ? At least my son listens to the subtle signs the dog is trying to communicate with him?
I trust the dog and its that my son will have to realise he can't kiss the dog on its face anymore. Starsks was a very nervous/ paranoid dog, but has come out of his shell brilliantly

My son does feed the dogs regularly and walks them every day. 

you've come a long way in a short time with him, your doing really well :)

all you can do is play it by ear and get your son to be careful.

best of luck

Hi Magica,

> Should I be worried about this odd behaviour?

To us Humans it may seem odd, but to canines this is not odd behaviour!
Remember we do not speak the same (body) language ;)

Please read this article: Hugging your Dog written by Barry Mcdonald (referencing to Turid Rugaas & Patricia McConnell 'The other end of the leash')

Further reading about what our dog is trying to tell us with his/her body language please read: Turid Rugaas - 'Calming signals' The art of survival You will see that Starsks' licks are not so much "I love you" as "Im appeasing you, Please don't threaten me with your head lock that you think is a hug but I see as a head lock!!!" ;)

Hope this helps clarify :)
(p.s. the book by Patricia mentioned earlier 'The other end of the leash' is another great/useful read!)

Just make sure that your son is gentle with your dog.  Teenagers can be a bit mad sometimes - I remember what I was like with my cat when I was a teenager always squeezing and cuddling and annoying him until he had enough and gave me a good clawing!  Unfortunately its not so straightforward with a dog who may have a longer fuse but may then suddenly turn and attack your son - and then the dog will be the one to get the ultimate punishment not your son!  Perhaps it is a contented growl - I don't know  but it may also  be a warning for your son to back off!

my belgian shepherd growls all the time as a way of asking for fusses and cuddles

Many Spanish Water Dogs also grumble away when they are excited and having hugs and cuddles!  Anton does, his dad did and I know thqat a few others do, anyone around thinks that they are being nasty but they're not.  Without being there though no-one can say if this is the same thing.

Thanks for the links...

Reading about the language they are saying! Poor Starsks is in a complete state! this is how he is....
1. Dribbles wee when we come  home from him being left. This has stopped to be honest, only sometimes when he's been at my kitchen bin.
2. Turns in a curve licking his lips.
3 When I'm lying on the floor he comes across me and slides his belly across me then runs to his bed. Then flops onto his back.
4. Puts on the face of a puppy.
5. Tries to lick us constantly on hands, face & legs.
6 When seeing a strange dog starts sniffing for England.
I suppose over 4 years of not being 'listened to' has reduced him to acting like this and trying to calm me & my son down all the time! I thought I was a pretty chilled out person.

> I suppose over 4 years of not being 'listened to' has reduced him to acting like this and trying to calm me & my son down all the time! I thought I was a pretty chilled out person.

Poor Starsks :(
The thing is, even chilled out people can give the wrong signals to a nervous dog, simple things like eye contact with him can be un-nerving for him if he really is lacking in trust and a 'loving' stroke on the head can be taken as not loving atall, approaching him when he's giving signals that he's not confident about being approached etc.. Poor thing :( I really think it's worth seeing a decent dog behaviourist, they should be able to help you build his trust and confidence.

> Poor thing :-( I really think it's worth seeing a decent dog behaviourist, they should be able to help you build his trust and confidence. <IMG class=qButton title="Quote selected text" height=10 alt="Quote selected text" src="/images/mi_quote.gif" width=20>

I can see what your saying and I do realise that if he was the only dog in my house I think I would seriously have to go down that route. It is teaching my son how to be with him that is the hard part as our bull terrier Snoop is like a tank mentally and that's all my son has known since he was 5. All I do is give Starsky his space and hip nudges :-)  When his old owner came to visit she was amazed that he didn't whine anymore (he did it all the time before) you only had to say his name and he would whine like crazy all I do now is tell him what a good boy he is, as before it was what a stupid dog and certain words I would not say as it would upset some folk on this forum. He looks at me now and wags his tail a little with a happy as larry look with not an iota of nerves, all the previous behaviour I listed before only occurs when he is near us or we call him to come to us he gets stressed. He is fine when its food or walkies time, he is OK with being left downstairs at bed time obviously he will sneak up if he can but he did scratch the door even if I went to the bathroom when he first moved in. He even lies down to have his toe nails clipped. He has in the last few days even approached strange people to say hello when out on our walks. Before he would hid behind me looking very sketchy.

Obviously if he is still an nervous wreck in another 6 months time then yes I would look into getting a professional in to help me out with him. I will give it a little more time and have a proper talk with my boy on how to be more off hand with him. 

> as before it was what a stupid dog and certain words I would not say as it would upset some folk on this forum.

That's so sad :(

>He looks at me now and wags his tail a little with a happy as larry look with not an iota of nerves

Sounds like Starskys come a long way allready with you :)

Hiya ,  When you have more than one dog, then the most dominant one puts all of the others in its place, and the most submissive one lays on its back and submits. The dominant dog then stands over it as if to remind him of its place. I think your dog has ,because your son was one his back in bed , the dominant dog has asserted its authority and stood over your son and made it clear in its own mind that he is boss. You will have to ask your son to learn how to be the boss. A good book to get info from is one by Jan Fennel, "the dog listener". I have tried several of her suggestions and they do work. Dogs get like teenagers at puberty and try to find their place in the (household)pack. hope this helps

> I think your dog has ,because your son was one his back in bed , the dominant dog has asserted its authority and stood over your son and made it clear in its own mind that he is boss. You will have to ask your son to learn how to be the boss. A good book to get info from is one by Jan Fennel, "the dog listener". I have tried several of her suggestions and they do work. Dogs get like teenagers at puberty and try to find their place in the (household)pack. hope this helps

A flawed theory I'm afraid, dogs do not try to "dominant"humans, they are aware that humans are not dogs & therefore are no threat to their breeding/eating position. Dogs have no plans for world canine domination no matter what JF or CM broadcast. My dominant bitches(& all my dominant dogs have been bitches)do not force other dogs into submission by standing over them & making them assume the appeasement upside down position, my lowest ranked dog(who isn't the smallest or youngest)even shows appeasement to my 18 week old Cavalier(Wukee is almost 18 months older & @ least 6 times the size)in an effort to get him to play, he even rolls for my cats who are smaller than the puppy.

Humans do not form part of domestic dog groups(I don't use the word pack to describe a none related number of dogs in the same household-A true pack consists of one set of unrelated parents & all their offspring from several litters that have not reached sexual maturity-few people own such a "pack"of dogs)They are providers of food & shelter & because dogs are opportunists by nature, they are content to live with us in return for food & shelter & our attention.

JF suggests that allowing a dog to walk in front of you through a dog is allowing the dog to be the"pack"leader, because of behaviour studied in artificial captive basically unrelated wolf packs, which do not go hunting. In real life wild packs the pack is not lead by the Alphas, but by slightly lower ranked wolves(think of sending the "generals to fight in the front line in human terms-kill the generals & the army falls part)leaving the Alphas to guard the rear & be back in case of attack by other predators. Dogs are not wolves they are related & of the same species, but have developed over 1,000s of years to live in close harmony & mutual advantage with humans. The ignoring & eating first is another couple of her pet ideas also based on flawed studies of wolves. She also advocates not stroking or cuddling dogs as this invades their"personal"space-this she gets from her human psychological qualifications